Europe's Problem With Islam

[Vashtanaraada]

Should I quote hitler and tens and thousands of fellow Europeans like him to prove otherwise ?

There isn't anything you can do anymore. Your argument was that no concept existed. I've shown that the concept of religious tolerance has existed in Europe for quite some time now. Citing examples of people being intolerant is utterly irrelevant to your previous claim. You were wrong, are wrong, and remain wrong.

Someone just got served.

[Shilya]

So, we've got a whole bunch of islamophobes around. Too many to ignore. I guess that much is what we can agree on.

Where do we go from there? We can't get rid of them - they're a part of our population, they're our citizens, and they're enough for their voice to matter. That's democracy, like it or not. So, we're stuck with that for now.

At that point we can either choose to ignore them anyways and keep going, which hasn't exactly worked out so far. The economic situation is europe isn't exactly favourable to experiment with a new social makeup, that just opens the way for people to point and assign blame for things being somewhat shitty, or really shitty, depending on where you are. In other words, it's only getting worse.

Or we could, well, stop. Give society time to adjust, because society always needs time for every change. It doesn't happen overnight and trying to push social change has worked how often so far? Wait another generation, then see if things have changed, if the next generation is now more reasonable. Meanwhile, let things work out with the mix we have now.

It's not like there's any particulary good reason for us to invite another unappealing abrahamic faith with a less than stellar history. The one we have is plenty enough, thank you very much, maybe hope that one phases out first. Maybe in a generation from now, predominantly muslim countries will also stop setting a terrible example. The likes of Iran and Saudi Arabia are really not helping the image of Islam right now.

[Naushantiya]

Should I quote hitler and tens and thousands of fellow Europeans like him to prove otherwise ?

There isn't anything you can do anymore. Your argument was that no concept existed. I've shown that the concept of religious tolerance has existed in Europe for quite some time now. Citing examples of people being intolerant is utterly irrelevant to your previous claim. You were wrong, are wrong, and remain wrong.

No my claim is that European culture is fundamentally intolerant, one man's saying in particular part and time in history does not change this fact about Europe

[Laerod]

There isn't anything you can do anymore. Your argument was that no concept existed. I've shown that the concept of religious tolerance has existed in Europe for quite some time now. Citing examples of people being intolerant is utterly irrelevant to your previous claim. You were wrong, are wrong, and remain wrong.

No my claim is that European culture is fundamentally intolerant, one man's saying in particular part and time in history does not change this fact about Europe

And yet you neither said that nor will you have an easy time finding many places in the world that are able to claim the title "more tolerant than Europe". Mind you, I agree that Europe has a problem with tolerance, which makes the rest of the world lagging behind it all the more problematic.

[Gauthier]

So, we've got a whole bunch of islamophobes around. Too many to ignore. I guess that much is what we can agree on.

Where do we go from there? We can't get rid of them - they're a part of our population, they're our citizens, and they're enough for their voice to matter. That's democracy, like it or not. So, we're stuck with that for now.

At that point we can either choose to ignore them anyways and keep going, which hasn't exactly worked out so far. The economic situation is europe isn't exactly favourable to experiment with a new social makeup, that just opens the way for people to point and assign blame for things being somewhat shitty, or really shitty, depending on where you are. In other words, it's only getting worse.

Or we could, well, stop. Give society time to adjust, because society always needs time for every change. It doesn't happen overnight and trying to push social change has worked how often so far? Wait another generation, then see if things have changed, if the next generation is now more reasonable. Meanwhile, let things work out with the mix we have now.

It's not like there's any particulary good reason for us to invite another unappealing abrahamic faith with a less than stellar history. The one we have is plenty enough, thank you very much, maybe hope that one phases out first. Maybe in a generation from now, predominantly muslim countries will also stop setting a terrible example. The likes of Iran and Saudi Arabia are really not helping the image of Islam right now.

More likely they're hoping Daesh succeeds in establishing and maintaining a Caliphate so that they have a convenient general purpose Muslim Land to deport every single Muslim they can.

[The Alma Mater]

So, we've got a whole bunch of islamophobes around. Too many to ignore. I guess that much is what we can agree on.

Where do we go from there? We can't get rid of them - they're a part of our population, they're our citizens, and they're enough for their voice to matter. That's democracy, like it or not. So, we're stuck with that for now.

At that point we can either choose to ignore them anyways and keep going, which hasn't exactly worked out so far. The economic situation is europe isn't exactly favourable to experiment with a new social makeup, that just opens the way for people to point and assign blame for things being somewhat shitty, or really shitty, depending on where you are. In other words, it's only getting worse.

Or we could, well, stop. Give society time to adjust, because society always needs time for every change. It doesn't happen overnight and trying to push social change has worked how often so far? Wait another generation, then see if things have changed, if the next generation is now more reasonable. Meanwhile, let things work out with the mix we have now.

It's not like there's any particulary good reason for us to invite another unappealing abrahamic faith with a less than stellar history. The one we have is plenty enough, thank you very much, maybe hope that one phases out first. Maybe in a generation from now, predominantly muslim countries will also stop setting a terrible example. The likes of Iran and Saudi Arabia are really not helping the image of Islam right now.

I doubt waiting will help. We are currently moving into the fourth generation of European muslims - and it seems the issues get *worse*.

[Confederate Ramenia]

So, we've got a whole bunch of islamophobes around. Too many to ignore. I guess that much is what we can agree on.

Where do we go from there? We can't get rid of them - they're a part of our population, they're our citizens, and they're enough for their voice to matter. That's democracy, like it or not. So, we're stuck with that for now.

At that point we can either choose to ignore them anyways and keep going, which hasn't exactly worked out so far. The economic situation is europe isn't exactly favourable to experiment with a new social makeup, that just opens the way for people to point and assign blame for things being somewhat shitty, or really shitty, depending on where you are. In other words, it's only getting worse.

Or we could, well, stop. Give society time to adjust, because society always needs time for every change. It doesn't happen overnight and trying to push social change has worked how often so far? Wait another generation, then see if things have changed, if the next generation is now more reasonable. Meanwhile, let things work out with the mix we have now.

It's not like there's any particulary good reason for us to invite another unappealing abrahamic faith with a less than stellar history. The one we have is plenty enough, thank you very much, maybe hope that one phases out first. Maybe in a generation from now, predominantly muslim countries will also stop setting a terrible example. The likes of Iran and Saudi Arabia are really not helping the image of Islam right now.

More likely they're hoping Daesh succeeds in establishing and maintaining a Caliphate

That would be a good thing if you aren't Islamophobic, as a strong Caliphate would bring peace to the Middle East and stop small fighting and civil wars. Realistically, it would go from a crazy Jihadi Sunni Arab state to a more peaceful caliphate for all Muslims as it evolves.

[Laerod]

More likely they're hoping Daesh succeeds in establishing and maintaining a Caliphate

That would be a good thing if you aren't Islamophobic, as a strong Caliphate would bring peace to the Middle East and stop small fighting and civil wars. Realistically, it would go from a crazy Jihadi Sunni Arab state to a more peaceful caliphate for all Muslims as it evolves.

No.

[Steamtopia]

More likely they're hoping Daesh succeeds in establishing and maintaining a Caliphate

That would be a good thing if you aren't Islamophobic, as a strong Caliphate would bring peace to the Middle East and stop small fighting and civil wars. Realistically, it would go from a crazy Jihadi Sunni Arab state to a more peaceful caliphate for all Muslims as it evolves.

You actually think a Caliphate would respect all minorities in the Middle East while simultaneously not trying to conquer the rest of the planet (which they consider to be their divine right)? You've no clue what you're talking about.

[Seraven]

That would be a good thing if you aren't Islamophobic, as a strong Caliphate would bring peace to the Middle East and stop small fighting and civil wars. Realistically, it would go from a crazy Jihadi Sunni Arab state to a more peaceful caliphate for all Muslims as it evolves.

You actually think a Caliphate would respect all minorities in the Middle East while simultaneously not trying to conquer the rest of the planet (which they consider to be their divine right)? You've no clue what you're talking about.

He never seen Ottoman's rule over the minorities too, apparently.

[Confederate Ramenia]

That would be a good thing if you aren't Islamophobic, as a strong Caliphate would bring peace to the Middle East and stop small fighting and civil wars. Realistically, it would go from a crazy Jihadi Sunni Arab state to a more peaceful caliphate for all Muslims as it evolves.

You actually think a Caliphate would respect all minorities in the Middle East while simultaneously not trying to conquer the rest of the planet (which they consider to be their divine right)? You've no clue what you're talking about.

It's that or be destroyed by dozens of small minority militias all at once.

[Steamtopia]

You actually think a Caliphate would respect all minorities in the Middle East while simultaneously not trying to conquer the rest of the planet (which they consider to be their divine right)? You've no clue what you're talking about.

It's that or be destroyed by dozens of small minority militias all at once.

So much for stopping civil wars. What a smart plan.

[The Alma Mater]

That would be a good thing if you aren't Islamophobic, as a strong Caliphate would bring peace to the Middle East and stop small fighting and civil wars. Realistically, it would go from a crazy Jihadi Sunni Arab state to a more peaceful caliphate for all Muslims as it evolves.

You actually think a Caliphate would respect all minorities in the Middle East while simultaneously not trying to conquer the rest of the planet (which they consider to be their divine right)? You've no clue what you're talking about.

NItpick: the goal of the Caliphate is most empathically NOT to conquer the whole world - just to make certain that living in the caliphate is better than living outside of it. Which, in practice, will probably mean that they want to make everything outside their borders a chaotic wasteland.

[Confederate Ramenia]

You actually think a Caliphate would respect all minorities in the Middle East while simultaneously not trying to conquer the rest of the planet (which they consider to be their divine right)? You've no clue what you're talking about.

He never seen Ottoman's rule over the minorities too, apparently.

Implying that mistreatment was a bad thing?

[Laerod]

He never seen Ottoman's rule over the minorities too, apparently.

Implying that mistreatment was a bad thing?

Kinda is by definition. Odd that you're not aware of the meaning of the word.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

He never seen Ottoman's rule over the minorities too, apparently.

Implying that mistreatment was a bad thing?

Why wouldn't it be?

[Steamtopia]

He never seen Ottoman's rule over the minorities too, apparently.

Implying that mistreatment was a bad thing?

Err, yes.

[The Conez Imperium]

So, we've got a whole bunch of islamophobes around. Too many to ignore. I guess that much is what we can agree on.

Where do we go from there? We can't get rid of them - they're a part of our population, they're our citizens, and they're enough for their voice to matter. That's democracy, like it or not. So, we're stuck with that for now.

At that point we can either choose to ignore them anyways and keep going, which hasn't exactly worked out so far. The economic situation is europe isn't exactly favourable to experiment with a new social makeup, that just opens the way for people to point and assign blame for things being somewhat shitty, or really shitty, depending on where you are. In other words, it's only getting worse.

Or we could, well, stop. Give society time to adjust, because society always needs time for every change. It doesn't happen overnight and trying to push social change has worked how often so far? Wait another generation, then see if things have changed, if the next generation is now more reasonable. Meanwhile, let things work out with the mix we have now.

It's not like there's any particulary good reason for us to invite another unappealing abrahamic faith with a less than stellar history. The one we have is plenty enough, thank you very much, maybe hope that one phases out first. Maybe in a generation from now, predominantly muslim countries will also stop setting a terrible example. The likes of Iran and Saudi Arabia are really not helping the image of Islam right now.

I doubt waiting will help. We are currently moving into the fourth generation of European muslims - and it seems the issues get *worse*.

4th generation? When did the first "big" wave of Muslim immigrants settle in Europe?

[St Salvador]

The ottoman invasion of europe in the 1400's that left a sizable islamic population in the balkans not sure where they got 4th generation though.

[Purger]

The ottoman invasion of europe in the 1400's that left a sizable islamic population in the balkans not sure where they got 4th generation though.

Only 2 million Bosniaks, 7 million Albanians with some few thousands Pomaks. I it a size of London altogether.

[Shilya]

I doubt waiting will help. We are currently moving into the fourth generation of European muslims - and it seems the issues get *worse*.

4th generation? When did the first "big" wave of Muslim immigrants settle in Europe?

For Germany, that would be ~1960, when a serious labor shortage following the losses WW2 resulted in a guest worker agreement with turkey. They're about in the third generation now.

[Seraven]

He never seen Ottoman's rule over the minorities too, apparently.

Implying that mistreatment was a bad thing?

It is still a bad thing.

[Herskerstad]

More likely they're hoping Daesh succeeds in establishing and maintaining a Caliphate

That would be a good thing if you aren't Islamophobic, as a strong Caliphate would bring peace to the Middle East and stop small fighting and civil wars. Realistically, it would go from a crazy Jihadi Sunni Arab state to a more peaceful caliphate for all Muslims as it evolves.

With all due respect, such is a delusional fantasy. There's a reason why the IS puts up images which congregate all previous nations that may have had some Islamic majority into one super-flag, and the Jihad would not stop should it ever get to that geographic point either.

One might say much for organic and peaceful, conservative development which probably will still impose gradual and negative dhimmitude if it becomes powerful enough, but certainly not IS who's only lack of street cred so far is claiming western China as they have no issues pissing off both Russia and the West, even with suicidally poor tactics murdering Japanese hostages.

[Kubra]

He never seen Ottoman's rule over the minorities too, apparently.

Implying that mistreatment was a bad thing?

>don't worry guiz it'll be a big tent caliphate
>except it'll exclude and mistreat minorities

lol

[Gauthier]

That would be a good thing if you aren't Islamophobic, as a strong Caliphate would bring peace to the Middle East and stop small fighting and civil wars. Realistically, it would go from a crazy Jihadi Sunni Arab state to a more peaceful caliphate for all Muslims as it evolves.

With all due respect, such is a delusional fantasy. There's a reason why the IS puts up images which congregate all previous nations that may have had some Islamic majority into one super-flag, and the Jihad would not stop should it ever get to that geographic point either.

One might say much for organic and peaceful, conservative development which probably will still impose gradual and negative dhimmitude if it becomes powerful enough, but certainly not IS who's only lack of street cred so far is claiming western China as they have no issues pissing off both Russia and the West, even with suicidally poor tactics murdering Japanese hostages.

Not to mention historical relics going down the shitter due to countless jihadi morons calling them idolatry. In a movie, there'd be some ancient reawakened plague or evil that could have been stopped by some information on tablets or whathaveyou that was just demolished by Daeshbags.