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[PASSED] Repeal "Commend A mean old man"

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Great Brigantia
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[PASSED] Repeal "Commend A mean old man"

Postby Great Brigantia » Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:44 pm

Repeal "Commend A mean old man"
A resolution to repeal previously passed legislation.

Category: Repeal | Resolution: SC#75 | Proposed by: Great Brigantia





Description: WA Security Council Resolution #75: Commend A mean old man shall be struck out and rendered null and void.

Argument: The Security Council:

Recalling that A mean old man previously served as a Senator of the New Pacific Order, the ruling regime of The Pacific, has recently been reinstated to the Senate, and maintained significant influence within the regime even during retirement;

Acknowledging with outrage the coup d'etat recently perpetrated against Lazarus by the rogue Delegate Stujenske on behalf of the New Pacific Order, annexing Lazarus as part of the Order and establishing the New Lazarene Order as the region's rogue regime, announced and rationalised by A mean old man on behalf of the New Pacific Order and the New Lazarene Order;

Recognising that A mean old man, which is not a native nation of Lazarus, has been illegitimately declared the Emperor of the New Lazarene Order, despite no democratic election taking place, and with the support of foreign invading forces;

Noting the admission by A mean old man, in the statement announcing the New Lazarene Order, that its involvement in The East Pacific was guided by the ideology and interests of the New Pacific Order, which calls into question its involvement in other such regions as well as its attempts to establish the Modern Pacific Alliance, cited by SC#75 as commendable behaviour;

Observing that in light of recent events, assertions made by SC#75 that A mean old man should be commended as a "champion of justice and order in the world" are now far from the truth, as the nation has championed injustice in Lazarus and discord between the New Pacific Order and allies and friends of Lazarus;

Asserting that the acts of aggression taken by the New Pacific Order against Lazarus, acts in which A mean old man is complicit and has attempted to rationalise with deceptive and manipulative propaganda, render a nation or region unworthy of commendation by this Security Council and call into question the motives behind many of A mean old man's alleged positive interregional contributions;

Hereby Repeals SC#75: Commend A mean old man.


Repeal "Commend A mean old man"
A resolution to repeal previously passed legislation.

Category: Repeal | Resolution: SC#75 | Proposed by: Great Brigantia





Description: WA Security Council Resolution #75: Commend A mean old man shall be struck out and rendered null and void.

Argument: The Security Council:

Observing that A mean old man has formerly served as a Senator of the New Pacific Order, the ruling regime of The Pacific, and maintains significant influence within the regime;

Recalling that another Senator of the New Pacific Order, Feux, was responsible for purging citizens of Lazarus from the region in 2013, and that this purge was announced by A mean old man in a diatribe authored by that nation, titled "The NPO's Retort";

Noting that "The NPO's Retort" made unsubstantiated claims, alternating between spurious and outright libelous, against several regions to benefit the New Pacific Order and justify the purges in Lazarus. These regions included: Osiris, Balder, Europeia, Equilism, The New Inquisition, The Land of Kings and Emperors, Albion, The Black Hawks, and Kantrias;

Acknowledging with outrage the coup d'etat recently perpetrated against Lazarus by the rogue Delegate Stujenske on behalf of the New Pacific Order, annexing Lazarus as part of the Order and establishing the New Lazarene Order as the region's rogue government, an announcement that was once again made by A mean old man on behalf of the New Pacific Order and the New Lazarene Order;

Lambasting the admission by A mean old man, in the statement announcing the New Lazarene Order, that its involvement in The East Pacific was guided by the ideology and interests of the New Pacific Order, which calls into question its involvement in other such regions as well as its attempts to establish the Modern Pacific Alliance, cited by SC#75 as commendable behavior;

Asserting that the acts of aggression taken by the New Pacific Order against Lazarus, acts in which A mean old man is complicit and has worked to justify with deceptive and manipulative propaganda, render a nation or region unworthy of commendation by this Security Council:

Hereby Repeals SC#75: Commend A mean old man.
Last edited by Great Brigantia on Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:16 pm, edited 13 times in total.
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Postby Pollaetorian » Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:51 pm

Repeals must address the resolution passed.

AMOM's commend is based on this SC work, one vague paragraph on being a member of The Pacific and stuff on the defunct Modern Pacific Alliance.

You can make an argument on the last point, but none of the current events applies to the stuff in his commend.
Last edited by Pollaetorian on Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Belschaft » Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:57 pm

AMOM fully deserves his commendation. Repealing it is a petty act of spite, rather than something meaningful. If you want to oppose the NPO and NLO do something practical, not this.
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Postby Great Brigantia » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:01 pm

Pollaetorian wrote:Repeals must address the resolution passed.

AMOM's commend is based on this SC work, one vague paragraph on being a member of The Pacific and stuff on the defunct Modern Pacific Alliance.

You can make an argument on the last point, but one of the current events applies to the stuff in his commend.

Yes, repeals must address the resolution, and this repeal does. There is no rule that repeals must only address the resolution, as far as I know.

Belschaft wrote:AMOM fully deserves his commendation. Repealing it is a petty act of spite, rather than something meaningful. If you want to oppose the NPO and NLO do something practical, not this.

In a word: No.

In more than a word, SC#75 commends AMOM in part for his attempts to establish the Modern Pacific Alliance, applauding that as some kind of noble cause to unify Feeders and SInkers. We now see, in light of Lazarus, exactly how AMOM would like to unite the Feeders and Sinkers -- under the imperial governance of the NPO -- and in light of that, the MPA was far from a commendable endeavor.
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Postby Belschaft » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:04 pm

Great Brigantia wrote:
Belschaft wrote:AMOM fully deserves his commendation. Repealing it is a petty act of spite, rather than something meaningful. If you want to oppose the NPO and NLO do something practical, not this.

In a word: No.

In more than a word, SC#75 commends AMOM in part for his attempts to establish the Modern Pacific Alliance, applauding that as some kind of noble cause to unify Feeders and SInkers. We now see, in light of Lazarus, exactly how AMOM would like to unite the Feeders and Sinkers -- under the imperial governance of the NPO -- and in light of that, the MPA was far from a commendable endeavor.

Speaking as the TSP Delegate who signed the MPA, it was nothing at all like the current annexation of Lazarus, but a peaceful and equitable treaty between TP, TEP and TSP intended to foster better relations between the GCR's with the intent of growing and providing collective security.

The MPA does not retroactively gain some kind of perverse and dangerous character four years later due to current events.
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Postby Jean Pierre Trudeau » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:07 pm

Great Brigantia wrote:In more than a word, SC#75 commends AMOM in part for his attempts to establish the Modern Pacific Alliance, applauding that as some kind of noble cause to unify Feeders and SInkers. We now see, in light of Lazarus, exactly how AMOM would like to unite the Feeders and Sinkers -- under the imperial governance of the NPO -- and in light of that, the MPA was far from a commendable endeavor.


Good point. While AMOM's resolutions were laudable, they were passed for regions deserving of such recognition. What AMOM has done is not deserving of a commendation. The wanton destruction of a region is not something we should be commending now is it?
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Postby Great Brigantia » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:08 pm

Belschaft wrote:Speaking as the TSP Delegate who signed the MPA, it was nothing at all like the current annexation of Lazarus, but a peaceful and equitable treaty between TP, TEP and TSP intended to foster better relations between the GCR's with the intent of growing and providing collective security.

The MPA does not retroactively gain some kind of perverse and dangerous character four years later due to current events.

It does, actually, because as we've seen in Lazarus the NPO pretends to be doing what is in the best interests of other regions in order to infiltrate, subvert, and, finally, overthrow their governments.

The MPA would have given the NPO a greater foothold in the other Feeders, and when AMOM later proposed it again it was extended to the Sinkers as well. That foothold was no doubt what they were going to use to carry out their imperialist agenda in other Feeders and Sinkers, there really can't be much doubt of that now, seeing their conduct in Lazarus and AMOM's admission that he was pursuing the ideology and interests of the NPO while a citizen of TEP.
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Postby Solorni » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:32 pm

Not sure if I should feel awed or uncomfortable by the lightening fast movement of this. Unheard of I think.
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Postby Great Brigantia » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:35 pm

Solorni wrote:Not sure if I should feel awed or uncomfortable by the lightening fast movement of this. Unheard of I think.

This wasn't as fast as the drafts to repeal Commend Krulltopia or condemn The Pacific though. :P
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Postby Solorni » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:36 pm

I meant altogether lol. It's kinda crazy.
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Postby Sciongrad » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:37 pm

Belschaft wrote:AMOM fully deserves his commendation. Repealing it is a petty act of spite, rather than something meaningful. If you want to oppose the NPO and NLO do something practical, not this.


That's such a poor argument. An individual's commendable actions don't exist in a vacuum. To say that AMOM is worthy of a commendation because his commendable actions somehow exist outside of his involvement in the NPO and the recent imbroglio in Lazarus is illogical. That's like saying "it's completely unreasonable to punish this man for stealing! He's written some excellent books!" Please.
Last edited by Sciongrad on Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jean Pierre Trudeau » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:53 pm

Solorni wrote:I meant altogether lol. It's kinda crazy.


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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:54 pm

Great Brigantia wrote:
Pollaetorian wrote:Repeals must address the resolution passed.

AMOM's commend is based on this SC work, one vague paragraph on being a member of The Pacific and stuff on the defunct Modern Pacific Alliance.

You can make an argument on the last point, but one of the current events applies to the stuff in his commend.

Yes, repeals must address the resolution, and this repeal does. There is no rule that repeals must only address the resolution, as far as I know.
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Repeals based on an issue unrelated to the resolution they're trying to repeal will probably be deleted - an example of this was a "Repeal "Liberate Free Thought"" proposal, which justified the repeal because voting finished 12 hours before the voting timer said it would (see here and here).
Repeals are essentially arguing that the WA has changed its opinion on a subject - and this can sometimes be due to reasons not discussed in the resolution being repealed. However, the repeal should still address the arguments made in the original resolution
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Postby Great Brigantia » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:58 pm

Thank you, Mall.

I think this proposal is legal, as it gives a clear reason why the WA has changed its mind on commending AMOM -- it isn't about something unrelated to commendation, it's new information relevant to whether he should be commended by the Security Council. That said, I may revise the proposal to address SC#75 more thoroughly.

Edit/Update: There is now a second draft that reads less like a condemnation and more like a repeal. It includes reference to repeal of several resolutions for which AMOM is commended, removes some language about Lazarus that is superfluous to repeal and makes more sense in a condemnation, and makes clear how Lazarus relates to repeal of the commendation.
Last edited by Great Brigantia on Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Consular » Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:50 pm

Sciongrad wrote:
Belschaft wrote:AMOM fully deserves his commendation. Repealing it is a petty act of spite, rather than something meaningful. If you want to oppose the NPO and NLO do something practical, not this.


That's such a poor argument. An individual's commendable actions don't exist in a vacuum. To say that AMOM is worthy of a commendation because his commendable actions somehow exist outside of his involvement in the NPO and the recent imbroglio in Lazarus is illogical. That's like saying "it's completely unreasonable to punish this man for stealing! He's written some excellent books!" Please.

Good argument.

I support this.

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Postby Pollaetorian » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:01 pm

Sciongrad wrote:
Belschaft wrote:AMOM fully deserves his commendation. Repealing it is a petty act of spite, rather than something meaningful. If you want to oppose the NPO and NLO do something practical, not this.


That's such a poor argument. An individual's commendable actions don't exist in a vacuum. To say that AMOM is worthy of a commendation because his commendable actions somehow exist outside of his involvement in the NPO and the recent imbroglio in Lazarus is illogical. That's like saying "it's completely unreasonable to punish this man for stealing! He's written some excellent books!" Please.


But it does. We commend people for the acts listed in the resolution, not just in general. In the extreme example, Milo's condemnations rewarded playing an exemplary evil nation in RP were not repealed for his action in TSP (and now), because we rightfully recognised the two things had nothing to do with each other. Similarly my commend is in resurrecting the Warzones, which is not affected by any other terrible things I do in the game.

The rules which Mall pointed out generally agree

AMOM was one of the pioneers in setting the tone and direction of the SC so I feel uncomfortable at the loss of recognition if the repeal passes. That said, Cormac has made a (tenuous) link even his commended actions the re: MPA and current actions.

Edit: The repealed SC resolutions are hardly AMOM's fault. JSA died on it's own and then Mall refounded it (with the commend badge still on it) to troll everyone. Nazi Europe supposedly died was refounded by the forces of good.
Last edited by Pollaetorian on Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sedgistan » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:40 am

To give some further clarity to the legality question:
Great Brigantia wrote:
Pollaetorian wrote:Repeals must address the resolution passed.

AMOM's commend is based on this SC work, one vague paragraph on being a member of The Pacific and stuff on the defunct Modern Pacific Alliance.

You can make an argument on the last point, but one of the current events applies to the stuff in his commend.

Yes, repeals must address the resolution, and this repeal does. There is no rule that repeals must only address the resolution, as far as I know.

I'd agree with that last sentence. I'm going to update the Compendium to make that clear - a repeal must address (some of the) content/argument of the resolution it is repealing, but can include new relevant information. A good example was "Repeal "Commend Sedgistan"" which mentioned new events (the Devonitians coup in The South Pacific) to argue that the original Commendation's citation of defending as a reason to commend had been undermined by those non-defender actions.

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Postby Land filled with People » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:45 am

Repealing a commend because the player is involved in a coup-annexation-raid-thingy? Nope, we couldn't have that at all. :P

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Postby Great Brigantia » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:52 am

Land filled with People wrote:Repealing a commend because the player is involved in a coup-annexation-raid-thingy? Nope, we couldn't have that at all. :P

I think an argument can be made that the good Todd McCloud has done outweighs whatever he may have done in his raider days. I'm less familiar with 1 Infinite Loop, but I suspect a similar argument could be made there. It's somewhat alarming that Todd is actually commended for raiding.

I happen to agree with you that the commendation of Evil Wolf is ridiculous, but whatever one thinks of these commendations, that doesn't mean AMOM's commendation should be allowed to stand. If you think those commendations shouldn't be on the books, this one shouldn't be either. Besides, aside from his WA contributions, the only contributions AMOM is commended for are his Feeder and Sinker contributions, which are now highly suspect in light of the coup d'etat in Lazarus. Loop's and Evil Wolf's raiding have no real relationship to the contributions for which they're commended.
Last edited by Great Brigantia on Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Land filled with People » Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:46 am

To be clear, I don't really care about the SC at all. Just pointing out that AMOM wouldn't be alone in having couped/raided/whatever and also having been commended (which seemed to be the original basis for this repeal).

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Postby Goddess Relief Office » Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:22 am

Great Brigantia wrote:Recalling that several of the World Assembly resolutions authored by A mean old man, for which the nation was commended by SC#75 -- including SC#26: Commend The Joint Systems Alliance, SC#37: Condemn NAZI EUROPE, and its sole contribution to the General Assembly, GA#149: On Expiration Dates -- have since been repealed;

I'm not convinced the above is a good reason to revisit past commendations. With the passage of time, many authors will have at least some of their resolutions overturned. In the case of AMOM, although the 3 mentioned above were repealed, 7 SC and 1 GA resolution are still in force. That is a very good record in my book.

Great Brigantia wrote:Noting that A mean old man has not made sufficient contributions to the world through either the General Assembly or this Security Council to warrant commendation;

You could say he hasn't made sufficient contributions to the GA since he only did two; one repealed and the other as a non-submitting co-author. I disagree that he hasn't made sufficient contributions to the SC. AMOM wrote NINE SC resolutions, that's a respectable body of work.


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Postby Elke and Elba » Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:22 am

As the author of Repeal "Commend the Joint Systems Alliance", I don't think that things being repealed should be considered as a point in itself to repeal his commendation, given his large number of works done, as mentioned by GRO.

The line of argument of what Scion and the rest said about repealing his commendation makes more sense and would be quite a lot stronger to make a case on compared to that. Personally I'm not a fan of AMOM (first encounter with him was "who the fxxx wrote this shit" on an SC proposal if I remember correctly), but I must mention my support for this proposal does not lie herein on that encounter but on his role in the current coup.

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Postby Todd McCloud » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:41 am

I don't see why a raider shouldn't be commended if they did well at it. Then again, some raiders would rather be condemned. I suppose it's a fine line, an argument reserved for later, probably, if we'd like to make a thread on it or something. As for AMOM... I haven't decided. It took many attempts to get him commended, so it kind of sucks to see it on the chopping block again. But not many folks (myself included) are happy about the situation in Laz.
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Postby Unibot III » Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:09 am

Sciongrad wrote:
Belschaft wrote:AMOM fully deserves his commendation. Repealing it is a petty act of spite, rather than something meaningful. If you want to oppose the NPO and NLO do something practical, not this.


That's such a poor argument. An individual's commendable actions don't exist in a vacuum. To say that AMOM is worthy of a commendation because his commendable actions somehow exist outside of his involvement in the NPO and the recent imbroglio in Lazarus is illogical. That's like saying "it's completely unreasonable to punish this man for stealing! He's written some excellent books!" Please.


Belschaft's argument also contradicts what occurred with "Repeal "Commend Sedgistan"".

You know, the proposal co-authored by A Mean Old Man.

Also coincidentally, the proposal that Belschaft vote for.

Ballotonia wrote:The precedent has now been set that repeals exist not just to retract medals awarded in error, but also to take a medal away when the recipient's current behavior is no longer exemplary towards the community which granted the award. C&C's do not serve as 'dead' written history, but are a live record which can be re-evaluated and rewritten as deemed necessary.
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Postby Sciongrad » Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:13 pm

Pollaetorian wrote:
Sciongrad wrote:
That's such a poor argument. An individual's commendable actions don't exist in a vacuum. To say that AMOM is worthy of a commendation because his commendable actions somehow exist outside of his involvement in the NPO and the recent imbroglio in Lazarus is illogical. That's like saying "it's completely unreasonable to punish this man for stealing! He's written some excellent books!" Please.


But it does. We commend people for the acts listed in the resolution, not just in general. In the extreme example, Milo's condemnations rewarded playing an exemplary evil nation in RP were not repealed for his action in TSP (and now), because we rightfully recognised the two things had nothing to do with each other. Similarly my commend is in resurrecting the Warzones, which is not affected by any other terrible things I do in the game.

The rules which Mall pointed out generally agree

AMOM was one of the pioneers in setting the tone and direction of the SC so I feel uncomfortable at the loss of recognition if the repeal passes. That said, Cormac has made a (tenuous) link even his commended actions the re: MPA and current actions.

Edit: The repealed SC resolutions are hardly AMOM's fault. JSA died on it's own and then Mall refounded it (with the commend badge still on it) to troll everyone. Nazi Europe supposedly died was refounded by the forces of good.


But it doesn't. Despite what you might think, the Security Council is an in-character aspect of the game that recognizes the sum of a nation's contributions to the world, not actions in a vacuum. We don't say "Hereby commends the actions which set the tone and direction of the SC," we say "Hereby commends AMOM because of his actions." When you suggest that we can simultaneously commend and condemn a nation, then you undermine the IC consistency of the SC. When you suggest that we can commend a nation and ignore the terrible things they've done, then you undermine the IC consistency of the SC. Your use of Milo as an example simply underscores that you don't recognize the weight of purely roleplayed actions, because Milo's IC behavior is significantly more horrific than his contributions to TSP. So we can all either stop pretending that the SC is anything but a way to reward your friends and spite your enemies, or you can take a serious, IC approach and give it some consistency. Because otherwise, this part of the game is just a joke.
Last edited by Sciongrad on Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Natalia Santos, Plenipotentiary and Permanent Scionite Representative to the World Assembly


Ideological Bulwark #271


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