Writing Discussion II

[Forsher]

So I came up with a really self-satisfying way of dealing with Mary-Sue tendencies in a 'author avatar' type character...

He dies in the prologue.

There's an idea that I have which is... kind of based on a dream. Wait, it'll become relevant, I promise.

Basically, the dude's dad was a big fan of Person of Interest (so, obviously, this is set in the "near future") and charges his son with finishing his life's mission, i.e. using a superintelligent AI to destroy the current Chinese state in an otherwise impossible to win war. Dude's not a computer genius though so his dad has thoughtfully prepared a shortlist of candidates he believe will be able to build the superintelligence... all dude has to do is be the face. But that's the catch... in order to accomplish this plan, dude needs a massive conscription project and to start a war with China which has a vastly bigger population (hundreds of times bigger) which will make him completely unpopular. Also dude has to start the war. The superintelligence also decides that he has to get conscripted too, but is a bit torn because the AI knows that its "mother" has fallen in love with dude, who doesn't love her back (think: Snape) but has been in a relationship with her for pretty much the entire project anyway. The AI is also not happy about this because it genuinely likes its mother and wishes she'd be in a healthier relationship. However, some things are programmed in so if the way they win is dude gets conscripted, dude's going to be conscripted.

Thus we enter the war part of the book because dude ships out, with the programmer desperate to know if he'll come back because she's just found out she's pregnant. Dude doesn't know this and while he's out serving in some semi-desert location he and his unit become separated from the wider mission. They're found by another unit whose members just so happen to include dude's version of Lily Evans/Potter... both units are then wiped out except for dude and love interest, who then get stuck in a cave for months and fall in love. She falls pregnant and they realise they can't just stay in the cave, they have to risk trying to get down the cliff even though it means they'll be in full view of a Chinese settlement. This goes mostly successfully and they even find the remains of another unit. Things go mostly okay for a while but when they're within about a day of what should be a safe area (the war's being directed by a superintelligence), the Chinese forces spot them. So now it becomes a desperate dash for the end... the young "minimum age" conscript soldier dies first, the older volunteer soldier is wounded and then the book just stops because dude's head's been blown off.

Enter... Book 2! (I have tried to write this... it's a page long or something ridiculous but I have two whole books planned out.)

So, can't keep going with the dude convention so we'll call her, Lily is the main character now. And she's going to make it out of the desperate chase because the remaining soldier from the other unit throws herself on top of her as they're fording the river, taking a fatal piece of shrapnel in the process. Lily's then pulled up by two strangers who haul her into a truck... the safe zone's noticed what was happening and have gone to rescue their soldiers. The volunteer's still alive and is cursing dude for having got them in this war as she's being treated. Lily suddenly realises that her kid's life is probably going to be really tough, so she doesn't tell the medics in the truck that she's pregnant. This is, instead, discovered later in the safe zone when they do a proper debriefing process, including a proper medical exam. She remains mum about the father because it's immediately apparent just how unpopular dude and dude's war is among the soldiers since, hey, the country cannot possibly win. But then it's announced that they've successfully managed to extract the Chinese leadership and destroy the infrastructure of the government. The war is over!

Meanwhile, programmer has been dealing with the superintelligence which has decided it doesn't want to live if it has to wait (by its calculations) 237 years to get a body. The programmer is, I forgot to mention, an American immigrant so she's pregnant, responsible for the creation of a superintelligence, completely complicit in the whole war (which hasn't been going well), in love with a Snape-type who's fighting in the war and completely isolated from a support network. So, she programs a death condition into the AI which triggers when the war's won. And then, suddenly, the war is won. The AI's prepared a eulogy for itself where it regrets its part in having created a world where programmer's daughter and her brother will grow up where their father's legacy will be 13 million war dead, including 437,233 of their own compatriots and being blamed for the AI's hiding the scale of the country's losses from its public and military. The programmer, of course, has no idea about what the brother means and in reading the eulogy also learns that that the AI was lying to her when it said dude (a) would survive and (b) was still alive. Armed only with this knowledge, she resolves to find her daughter's brother.

The book now takes the form of Lily's post-War life as a veteran who returned from the war pregnant intermingled with the programmer's attempts to find her. Lily's major problem is that it's obvious her son's father was another soldier and that she was one of two surviving soldiers from the "mission" that killed dude. The programmer's problem is that she's not part of the state apparatus so finding Lily is very difficult and reliant on the cover story that she's trying to write a book about soldiers' experiences to obtain interviews that generate leads. This is a process that takes years and the book concludes when they finally meet. The programmer's interviews never quite succeeding in their original intention, but she's sort of forced to "become the cover" in order to fund her search. Eventually, Lily decides she wants to tell her story so she reaches out to programmer because of her journalism. End book.

The dream is about a giant cat (?) chasing me and some others through a building site. I save one of the other characters (for whatever reason the giant cat can't climb) and clearly had enough time to save myself too. I must've been waking up because I decided it would be more interesting if I died so... um, the cat ate me.

So... the relevant bit... it's based on a dream where I killed the self-insert character. And while I do kill dude off, dude's dad is meant to be the more self-inspired one. The scene I mentioned having written? It was the funeral for the dad. Actually, I think that means I've tried writing it twice. I'm pretty sure I've tried to start it from Lily's perspective... It doesn't really matter. It's a complex outline that's way beyond my abilities as a writer.

Hah! The idea has evolved. It used to be even more like "kill the character in the prologue". Back then the enemy state was the US and dude died a third of the way in. Also, no pregnancy plotlines.

---

Anyway, I don't just spend my time planning things I don't believe I can write. I do sometimes try writing things. This one's also based on a dream... but I'm not telling it from the perspective of the dreamer.

It was just another ordinary day in paradise. Because, of course, it was. That’s just how things go in Hollywood. Not the actual place. The idea. Or, perhaps, the institution. It’s not really important any more. The difference, that is. Idea or institution. It’s a whole thing. Er, Thing. With the capital T. Never mind.

Every story’s got to start somewhere. Basic rule of storytelling. But this ain’t really a story. It’s more… a dream, that got made into a nightmare when Hollywood got its hands on it. Oh, no, not in the sense there’s a movie out there, that’d be stupid. Hollywood? Make a horror film out of something that wasn’t? Where’s the money in that? Make a horror story into something everyone wants to watch? Yeah, that’s where Hollywood is. Er, the money and so Hollywood. It’s an important distinction.

It’s a metaphor.

There’s an idea, the dream. And it seems so… cinematic. But that ain’t the medium at hand. It ain’t a medium available to everyone. Nah, most people are stuck with the real life. As in, not the Hollywood version. Where people are ugly, toilets exist and sometimes it ugly rains when you’re in a good mood. Yeah, because in Hollywood, even the rain’s pretty. All distorted (refracted?) lights and speeding cars, making that sound that tyres do when it’s really wet. You know it, right? Just like you know in the real world, the best you can hope for is two hands and a keyboard.

In Hollywood it’d be a typewriter.

They’re more cinematic.

That’s the problem with dreams. You’ve got to package them to do anything. Presentation counts. Expectation, in other words. Gotta have the grammar right. Or, failing that, make people think the errors are deliberate. Writing’s about control. Ain’t no-one out there wanting to read something they think they can do better. It’s just another magic trick. All style and damn the substance.

Which is a really fucking weird way of describing a dream.

But that’s the point. Only got what you’ve got, right? Only get what you’re getting. Doesn’t matter what’s come before, only this hand counts. Gambler’s fallacy and all that jazz.

Oh, yeah, the dream.

It’s funny. No, not the dream. The process (process matters).

It starts with the dream. Then it’s a draft. Then it’s refined. And then it’s either published or, more likely, it’s not. And they always say it’s getting it done that matters. Write more. Read more. It’ll happen.

Finishing the draft, that’s what they mean.

But it doesn’t work like that, right? The characters they’ve got a life of their own. Based on everything everyone’s already seen before. Because ain’t no-one reading. 19% of Americans, or something. Why even own books?

But say it does get done, then what? Some English teacher reads it and decides the curtains must be blue to symbolise the character’s depressed or whatever. It’s all bullshit. The curtains have to be blue because they exist. In the real life, people have curtains before they’re depressed. And it’d take someone really insensitive to say “well, clearly they’re depressed because of the curtains”.

Coo-coo-ca-choo.

It’s all fucking expectation. It’s in there because it matters to the themes. Or it’s in there because the author wants to know what colour the curtains are… and someone made them read, “the curtains flew open”. And never said one more word about them. Seriously, that’s why Lord of the Flies exists. And why it’s so symbolic. It’s just that it wasn’t islands. Some other dude called Golding thought, “Now this doesn’t sound remotely fucking believable”.

My name is Sam Golding. And I wanted to be a photographer.

Instead I’m a paparazzo. In the digital world.

It fucking sucks.

And it’s sucked even harder since my life started feeling like a story. A story in which I wasn’t really the main character. Like, the PI isn’t the protagonist for real, right? The PI’s just the agent to reveal the story. That’s why they all do that bullshit narration stuff. That’s just to make it look like the agency rests with the point of view character. But it doesn’t. Detectives detect. The shit that matters is happening with or without them.

I looked it up. It’s shaggy dog story. Probably. The alternative is that the PI fucked it all up… probably at the start, by just getting involved.

But I just can’t… tell it some other way. My brain’s infected by this idea. I was the PI in someone else’s story. Nothing makes sense but that.

So I’ve got to tell it like that. That’s my nightmare. That I’m making it worse.

Don’t believe me? Tell me I’m wrong after you’ve got to the end. Remember Stranger than Fiction? No. Pirates of the Caribbean. Best believe in Ghost Stories, girlie, ‘cos you’re in one. Yeah, I could look up the line. I’ve got internet. Wifi, obviously. Just ain’t real if I do it that way.

And I’ve become obsessed with the real life.

There's more but I tabbed the paragraphs and it's really tedious converting it to spaced paragraphs... I guess I'm wondering if it feels... real? I guess.

[Xmara]

How do I overcome the fear of criticism when I publish something on the internet? Like I don’t care if people don’t like my story, but I don’t want to be ripped apart or made fun of for my writing. I don’t want to be over sensitive to negative feedback.

When I was 16 I had a book idea and wrote the first chapter and shared it on an online forum. The next morning someone had posted a comment linking to a YouTube video where he read my story and completely ripped it apart, calling it the worst thing he ever read. That discouraged me and I ended up giving up on my book idea and deleting that Word file.

So, ever since then, I’ve been self conscious about sharing my writing with anyone else. I’ve not shared any stories I’ve written on the internet since then. I’m ashamed to be this fragile but I don’t want that to happen to me again because it was embarrassing.

[Soviet Haaregrad]

How do I overcome the fear of criticism when I publish something on the internet? Like I don’t care if people don’t like my story, but I don’t want to be ripped apart or made fun of for my writing. I don’t want to be over sensitive to negative feedback.

When I was 16 I had a book idea and wrote the first chapter and shared it on an online forum. The next morning someone had posted a comment linking to a YouTube video where he read my story and completely ripped it apart, calling it the worst thing he ever read. That discouraged me and I ended up giving up on my book idea and deleting that Word file.

So, ever since then, I’ve been self conscious about sharing my writing with anyone else. I’ve not shared any stories I’ve written on the internet since then. I’m ashamed to be this fragile but I don’t want that to happen to me again because it was embarrassing.

Develop a thicker skin or better yet, a stronger focus on interpreting all criticism (no matter how harshly worded or superficial) in as constructive manner as possible.

It's harder than I make it sound, but that's the only viable approach I can think of.

[Shwe Tu Colony]

Develop a thicker skin or better yet, a stronger focus on interpreting all criticism (no matter how harshly worded or superficial) in as constructive manner as possible.

It's harder than I make it sound, but that's the only viable approach I can think of.

Aye, some people do just enjoy lambasting hard. Some might do it for funsies, others do it because that's their style of criticizing, and publishing companies need to make money and bad products or bad personalities are hard to sell. That said, seeking to understand criticism and what the problem is so that you can resolve it is certainly ideal. Anyway, I found some advice here, though I can't attest to its viability.
My nonchalance with criticism comes from how I think everything I make is probably bad, but good enough to receive criticism, and as I mentioned earlier with my art professor, "bad art can eventually lead to good art." Perhaps the only bad piece of criticism is none at all, because what can you do with silence?

[Xmara]

Develop a thicker skin or better yet, a stronger focus on interpreting all criticism (no matter how harshly worded or superficial) in as constructive manner as possible.

It's harder than I make it sound, but that's the only viable approach I can think of.

Aye, some people do just enjoy lambasting hard. Some might do it for funsies, others do it because that's their style of criticizing, and publishing companies need to make money and bad products or bad personalities are hard to sell. That said, seeking to understand criticism and what the problem is so that you can resolve it is certainly ideal. Anyway, I found some advice here, though I can't attest to its viability.
My nonchalance with criticism comes from how I think everything I make is probably bad, but good enough to receive criticism, and as I mentioned earlier with my art professor, "bad art can eventually lead to good art." Perhaps the only bad piece of criticism is none at all, because what can you do with silence?

Good point. I’ll try to take constructive criticism and maybe it will make me a better writer.

What he said in the video was very hurtful though, and he literally had absolutely nothing positive to say about what I wrote.

I’m now 22, so maybe I’ll be able to handle it better.

[Shwe Tu Colony]

What he said in the video was very hurtful though, and he literally had absolutely nothing positive to say about what I wrote.

Some people just like to ravage, and that's all. Granted, a scathing review might have some merits somewhere, but if it's too vague and ambiguous and the fellow has absolutely no desire to help you, then there is little reason to pay much heed to it, since it would have little value in aiding your development as a person beyond getting a thicker skin.

[Drasnia]

Good point. I’ll try to take constructive criticism and maybe it will make me a better writer.

What he said in the video was very hurtful though, and he literally had absolutely nothing positive to say about what I wrote.

I’m now 22, so maybe I’ll be able to handle it better.

I critique a lot in the Got Issues? forum and from my experience, the best way to take constructive criticism is for the critiquer to do it in baby steps. If someone's starting out and they get scathing reviews, it's going to be a massive turnoff - yet I know some people who relish those incredibly tough critiques. I tailor my criticism to better fit the person. If they're experienced and I know they can take it, I go more in depth, but if they're new or I know they have confidence/self esteem issues, I go much softer. It might take longer in the latter case, but it keeps them working towards their goal instead of scaring them away.

A lot of the people I know who hyperbolize that "<thing> is the worst thing I've ever read/watched/played" aren't actually trying to engage in constructive criticism. Saying something's the worst thing ever isn't constructive; it's destructive. And the people who engage in that kind of "critique" probably don't even have opinions that are worth listening to. For your case, maybe try asking people to go gentler on you at first so you can start developing a thicker skin. If someone critiques your work and doesn't try to go gentler, they aren't listening to you and by extension don't have your best intentions at heart.

[Shwe Tu Colony]

Otay!

I'm thinking of submitting this here short story for a magazine that I've been aware of. I don't know if anyone here would be interested in making any remarks, but I figured I may as well inquire, just to see.

I am no longer taking feedback for it—

[Forsher]

How do I overcome the fear of criticism when I publish something on the internet? Like I don’t care if people don’t like my story, but I don’t want to be ripped apart or made fun of for my writing. I don’t want to be over sensitive to negative feedback.

To a certain extent I think the answer is... find the right site/community.

The cultural norms that apply in the place you're posting will either severely inhibit the likelihood of a repeat of that Youtube experience or should immediately tell you that it's likely you'll have that kind of experience again. In a lot of place I think your bigger worry is that you get no feedback. And maybe if you can try and convince yourself that "no feedback" is a worse scenario than "brutal, rude and non-constructive feedback" you might publish more? It becomes a "okay, so they really, really, don't like it, but at least they read it". Not sure, though. That option might be unhealthy.

To a certain extent, I think contests can be a way of dealing with this because they're basically pilots. We used to regularly run a contest here in A&F but... we got bad at judging (and I mean "we" quite literally... I was one of the worst judges for delays the first time I did it). Other contestants and "spectators" might discuss your story, but odds are that anyone who's interested in judging is going to be polite even if they might be harsh. I mean, I'm biased but RDL and I gave some people some pretty bad scores (especially RDL) in the (iirc) last one, I think we were... human and helpful in our feedback.

[Snoodum]

Anyone have any advice on getting better at putting subtext into dialogue? I'm finding it really hard and when I try it it just feels as though anyone with a brain would understand the subtext straight away which is not what I'm wanting. If one studies the dialogue, sure they can get the subtext but I don't want it to obvious. Advice would be much appreciated.

[Forsher]

Anyone have any advice on getting better at putting subtext into dialogue? I'm finding it really hard and when I try it it just feels as though anyone with a brain would understand the subtext straight away which is not what I'm wanting. If one studies the dialogue, sure they can get the subtext but I don't want it to obvious. Advice would be much appreciated.

With dialogue you have to remember that it's your character that is supposed to be speaking so the question I would start with is whether or not the character is capable of being more subtle than whatever level you're at right now. (I guess the related question is whether or not your character is aware of the subtext.)

The second thing is... remember that you know what the subtext is, which means it will be more obvious to you to start with. It may, in fact, be the case that you're already as subtle as you want to be.

In terms of actual advice if it is as obvious as you fear... I'm sorry I can't be more helpful.

[Snoodum]

Anyone have any advice on getting better at putting subtext into dialogue? I'm finding it really hard and when I try it it just feels as though anyone with a brain would understand the subtext straight away which is not what I'm wanting. If one studies the dialogue, sure they can get the subtext but I don't want it to obvious. Advice would be much appreciated.

With dialogue you have to remember that it's your character that is supposed to be speaking so the question I would start with is whether or not the character is capable of being more subtle than whatever level you're at right now. (I guess the related question is whether or not your character is aware of the subtext.)

The second thing is... remember that you know what the subtext is, which means it will be more obvious to you to start with. It may, in fact, be the case that you're already as subtle as you want to be.

In terms of actual advice if it is as obvious as you fear... I'm sorry I can't be more helpful.

Thank you very much! I'll try keep this in mind from now on! I'm starting to see how I can change things and improve now.

Another point I've been struggling with is what to do between action. What to do when those inevitable parts of the story come along that aren't very interesting but need to be decribed and written about regardless for everything to move forwards. Advice on how to fill this time would be marvellous!

[Chan Island]

So I just found out that the fictional city in which I have set my current novel has the same name as a literal Nazi. Fuck that. Any good city names in mind? The place is a cold water port in the arctic circle, in a country best described as theocratic, isolationist Tibetan/Inuit culture (with other characteristics).
It's also their only port.

[Snoodum]

So I just found out that the fictional city in which I have set my current novel has the same name as a literal Nazi. Fuck that. Any good city names in mind? The place is a cold water port in the arctic circle, in a country best described as theocratic, isolationist Tibetan/Inuit culture (with other characteristics).
It's also their only port.

I'm probably not the best person to answer this but this is what I can find.

http://ihti.ca/eng/place-names/pn-seri.html - This is a list of Nunavut names for places in Canada where Inuits live. What I found interesting is the 'aa' and the clear number of 'k's. I can't find what they directly translate to but Wikipedia says 'The language of the Inuit is an Eskimo–Aleut language. It is fairly closely related to the Yupik languages and more remotely to the Aleut language. These cousin languages are all spoken in Western Alaska and Eastern Chukotka, Russia.'

Tibet being a landlocked place doesn't help with finding names to do with ports and I couldn't find anything on related words other than 'ocean' which is pronounced (gyal-tso). I did find this: https://glosbe.com/en/bo It might be helpful though I haven't been able to get anything translated. It doesn't help when the Tibetan languages aren't written in the Latin script.

I'd try go with more inuit sounding words. This might be helpful: https://glosbe.com/en/iu/
I'm sorry I couldn't be of more help. Just maybe try and stick with words relating to water, maybe ice seeing as it's around the arctic circle (unless your country isn't.), you know stick with what's around. Do the people of this place see a lot of trade? Maybe it can be 'White trade' in inuit? White for the foam that nearby river might create, and trade because, well, this is there only port and so it probably sees a lot of maritime traffic.

Again, sorry for not being able to do more.

[Chan Island]

So I just found out that the fictional city in which I have set my current novel has the same name as a literal Nazi. Fuck that. Any good city names in mind? The place is a cold water port in the arctic circle, in a country best described as theocratic, isolationist Tibetan/Inuit culture (with other characteristics).
It's also their only port.

I'm probably not the best person to answer this but this is what I can find.

http://ihti.ca/eng/place-names/pn-seri.html - This is a list of Nunavut names for places in Canada where Inuits live. What I found interesting is the 'aa' and the clear number of 'k's. I can't find what they directly translate to but Wikipedia says 'The language of the Inuit is an Eskimo–Aleut language. It is fairly closely related to the Yupik languages and more remotely to the Aleut language. These cousin languages are all spoken in Western Alaska and Eastern Chukotka, Russia.'

Tibet being a landlocked place doesn't help with finding names to do with ports and I couldn't find anything on related words other than 'ocean' which is pronounced (gyal-tso). I did find this: https://glosbe.com/en/bo It might be helpful though I haven't been able to get anything translated. It doesn't help when the Tibetan languages aren't written in the Latin script.

I'd try go with more inuit sounding words. This might be helpful: https://glosbe.com/en/iu/
I'm sorry I couldn't be of more help. Just maybe try and stick with words relating to water, maybe ice seeing as it's around the arctic circle (unless your country isn't.), you know stick with what's around. Do the people of this place see a lot of trade? Maybe it can be 'White trade' in inuit? White for the foam that nearby river might create, and trade because, well, this is there only port and so it probably sees a lot of maritime traffic.

Again, sorry for not being able to do more.

I know I'm late for this thing, but wow, thanks a bunch for this. Really cool ideas floating in all of that, and a pretty unique take on it.

While someone on a discord chat gave me a good idea, this will be an excellent series of resources for other place names in the same country.

[Shwe Tu Colony]

I was writing Eiko Michori, one of my major characters, and... started to notice that he was giving me Dissociative Identity Disorder vibes, which was not my initial intention. It warrants further investigation...

[Annihilators of Chan Island]

I was writing Eiko Michori, one of my major characters, and... started to notice that he was giving me Dissociative Identity Disorder vibes, which was not my initial intention. It warrants further investigation...

Hey, if that's the way the story goes then that can still be interesting.

[Shwe Tu Colony]

Hey, if that's the way the story goes then that can still be interesting.

DID is really complicated, and I've not a lot of experience with it. It's undeniably still a thing I can consider, but I'd have to look into the viability of it in the context of Eiko's life.

[Shwe Tu Colony]

I completely forgot my MT main isn't written in an English-dominated world but I gave a pair of characters nicknames that only work in English (Darius/Dairy and Ayame/Yammy) so that's a big whoops from me—

[Kanadorika]

I completely forgot my MT main isn't written in an English-dominated world but I gave a pair of characters nicknames that only work in English (Darius/Dairy and Ayame/Yammy) so that's a big whoops from me—

Just BS it and say dairy is conveniently a word in your language