The North Korea Discussion Thread

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

tbf not exactly another country

Can you define country for me in such a way that North and South Korea are considered the same country?

[Arumdaum]

I swear, NK threads are among the lowest quality threads on NSG.

Thanks XD
But seriously, the actual NK apologists and their arguments are what makes it of such low quality.

Not at all, actually. More that 90% of posts tend to be stupid Best Korea jokes, based upon conjecture, rely upon stereotypes and misconceptions, or are sensational. The only debates that generally take place are between odd NK supporters (who often just turn out to be trolling) and people who take the bait.

Posts that provide good information on NK such as those of Joseon's are generally ignored.

[Arumdaum]

tbf not exactly another country

Can you define country for me in such a way that North and South Korea are considered the same country?

Taking country to be somewhat synonymous to nation (they're often used synonymously anyway), Korea is a single nation composed of a single people with a common language, history, and culture (especially pre-1953). Koreans in general consider Korea to be a single nation; one nation divided (hopefully) temporarily into two states.

[Costa Fierro]

Can you define country for me in such a way that North and South Korea are considered the same country?

Taking country to be somewhat synonymous to nation (they're often used synonymously anyway), Korea is a single nation composed of a single people with a common language, history, and culture (especially pre-1953). Koreans in general consider Korea to be a single nation; one nation divided (hopefully) temporarily into two states.

When do you see the two Koreas reuniting?

[Geilinor]

Can you define country for me in such a way that North and South Korea are considered the same country?

Taking country to be somewhat synonymous to nation (they're often used synonymously anyway), Korea is a single nation composed of a single people with a common language, history, and culture (especially pre-1953). Koreans in general consider Korea to be a single nation; one nation divided (hopefully) temporarily into two states.

"Country" generally refers to a nation-state. Just a nation doesn't make a country.

[Lancaster of Wessex]

Without scrolling through several pages, has the BBC report about NK sanction busting by changing ship names been brought up?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-31635564

[Geilinor]

I didn't know where else to post this. Apparently adultery is still illegal in South Korea.

[Arumdaum]

Taking country to be somewhat synonymous to nation (they're often used synonymously anyway), Korea is a single nation composed of a single people with a common language, history, and culture (especially pre-1953). Koreans in general consider Korea to be a single nation; one nation divided (hopefully) temporarily into two states.

"Country" generally refers to a nation-state. Just a nation doesn't make a country.

People generally use country to refer to nation-states because, tada, most countries are nation-states! Not the case for Korea. Korea falls within the definition of a country for many people.

A nation in itself does not make a state. Either way, we all know how Kefka was using the word.

[Arumdaum]

Taking country to be somewhat synonymous to nation (they're often used synonymously anyway), Korea is a single nation composed of a single people with a common language, history, and culture (especially pre-1953). Koreans in general consider Korea to be a single nation; one nation divided (hopefully) temporarily into two states.

When do you see the two Koreas reuniting?

Not anytime soon. People expected it to happen very soon during the 1990s, but not much progress has been made on that.

However, something we do see is smuggled South Korean cultural products gaining widespread popularity in the North, with even local heads of security branches secretly enjoying them as well (some were recently executed for this). The ability of North Korea to control all of the media to which its denizens have access sort of fell apart during the Arduous March.

North Korean officials, when going to China on business, love to sing South Korean songs (although often they may not be aware that they are singing these songs) at karaokes. What's interesting is that this is apparently tolerated to a certain extent.

Considering the large amount of gray area private sector activity occurring in North Korea which has been growing since the collapse of North Korea's economy during the 1990s, and how North Korea is planning to roll out more drastic economic liberalization policies beginning this year after experimenting with it a bit in the past, I think we may see the cultural divide that's formed in the past sixty years close up again a little bit.

[Arumdaum]

Also, since it looks like no one read the links that I posted earlier, I guess I can just post interesting excerpts of what's been happening in North Korea lately here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/22/opini ... .html?_r=0 (this is labeled as an opinion piece, but it nonetheless presents good facts and recent news by a respected and prominent North Korea watcher, Andrei Lankov)

A new set of market-oriented reforms adopted by the Central Committee of the Workers’ Party and by the cabinet of ministers on May 30, 2014, appears to aim to liberalize the economy as a whole. The content of this classified economic policy document was first partially leaked to the South Korean daily Segye Ilbo in June. Later it was confirmed by many sources and is now widely discussed by Pyongyang watchers.

The “May 30 Measures,” as they’ve come to be known, envision the significant reduction of state control of the economy and a dismantling of central planning. Managers of state enterprises will be allowed to purchase items on a free market, making deals with other enterprises or even private businesses. They will be given the right to fire and hire workers, and pay them as much as they want.

At coal mines near the border with China, where the new “system of managerial responsibility” has been tested since late 2013, the best miners may now receive up to $70 a month, an exorbitant wage for the North.

Mr. Kim has also left untouched the unofficial private economy, which began to grow in the 1990s and now contributes significantly to North Korea’s tiny G.D.P., as much as 50 percent by some estimates. This economy of small businesses like food stalls, bicycle repair shops and truck deliveries, as well as larger ones like small coal mines and fishing companies, has never been explicitly accepted by the government. But since Mr. Kim’s ascension, officials have left this gray market alone.

The agricultural reforms are already bearing fruit. In 2013, the country enjoyed the best harvest in decades when — in a first since the 1980s — it produced nearly enough food to feed its population on a subsistence level.

Also, from Al Jazeera:

This time, the big news is indeed a decision, the so-called “May 30th Measures”, jointly issued early this year by the North Korean cabinet of ministers and the Central Committee of the Korean Worker’s Party. This decision was initially classified, but because it was supposed to be read by so many people, its contents have become public knowledge.

The contents are revolutionary. It seems that, at long last, North Korea has decided to begin Chinese-style reforms. Marshal Kim Jong-un is obviously inclined to do what his late father, Generalissimo Kim Jong Il, was too afraid to, that is, to attempt to transform his country into a developmental dictatorship, largely similar to present-day Vietnam or China.

This decision did not come out of the blue. Indeed, it agrees very well with what Kim Jong Un and his advisers have quietly been doing over the last three years – albeit the slow-motion transformation of the country has attracted little attention from outside world.

The first significant step was the introduction of the so-called “June 28th Measures”. These measures were introduced in 2012, but only became fully into force in 2013. While on paper, they did not look that ground-breaking, they represent a sweeping reform of agricultural management in the North.

The “June 28th Measures” allowed North Korean farmers to create their own production teams of five or six people. It was not explicitly stated, but it was a signal that individual households should register as “production teams”. Such teams were given a plot of land, the assumption being that they would toil the same area for several consecutive years. The land technically remained under the jurisdiction of the state-owned and state-managed “collective farm”, but the produce would henceforth be split 70:30 between the state and the production team (ie the family). Up until then, North Korean production teams had been much larger, and all produce had to be submitted to the state in exchange for a fixed daily grain ration that was allocated to every farmer.

…

Given the precedent in agriculture, the “May 30th Measures” are not quite as surprising as they may first appear, though they are indeed truly radical by the standards of North Korea before 2013.

According to these measures, from 2015, North Korean farming households (for ideological purposes still branded “production teams”) will be allocated not 30 percent but 60 percent of the total harvest.

Additionally, farming households will be given large plots of land – some 3,300sq m – to act as their kitchen gardens. Until now, North Korea, unlike nearly all other communist states, never tolerated private agriculture to any significant degree, and thus, for decades, kitchen gardens were limited to a meagre 100sq m.

The measures did not stop there, though. This time the North Korean leadership has set its sights on reforming the moribund and hollowed out state industrial sector. According to the reforms, directors of state factories will find themselves covered by a new “director responsibility system”. This system makes a director, hitherto state-appointed and carefully supervised representative of the party and state, into the approximate equivalent of a private businessman (factory managers in North Korea are almost always men). Under the new system, factory directors will have the freedom to decide how, when and where they purchase technologies, raw materials and spare parts necessary for their enterprises. They will also be allowed to decide who to sell to. They are also given the right to hire and fire workers, as well as to decide how much to pay for a particular job.

Under the new system, there is a tacit assumption that directors will be able to reward themselves generously for their own work – a feature that makes them virtually indistinguishable from private entrepreneurs in market economies. As a matter of fact, a few foreign delegations that recently visited North Korea were privately briefed about coming changes.

Also, Wall Street Journal:

Right now, it seems clear that North Korea is entering a phase of economic experimentation. The so-called “May 30th” measures of 2014, expanding on similar steps taken in 2012, marks the biggest shift away from state planning that the country has ever taken.

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The details haven’t been publicly announced, but enough information has surfaced to know that some farmers will get to keep 60% of their produce and work teams will drop to family size.

Less clear is how factories are to be run, though we hear that state-owned companies are being given more autonomy. Factory bosses will decide their own inputs and outputs, as well as get some freedom in setting wages. This would take a whole slew of enterprises off the state planning system, so that while they remain state-owned, decisions would be driven by localized assessments of market needs.

[Geilinor]

Looking at the links Arumdaum posted, I hope North Korea starts moving in the direction of Vietnam and China.

[Arumdaum]

I might just be stealing all of this from nkeconwatch, but I found other recent news there which seems to support the idea that North Korea is trying to implement notable policy changes at the current moment. North Korea has recently nearly 350 slogans which tend to focus mainly on economic advancement. Furthermore, North Korea has also included messages about mending ties with the South, although better ties and eventual reunification is something that North Korea's been officially wanting for a while now.

from Yonhap:

SEOUL, Feb. 12 (Yonhap) -- North Korea's key governing party organs have released a set of campaign slogans calling for painstaking efforts to improve the livelihoods of its citizens, Pyongyang's state media said Thursday.

The Central Committee and the Central Military Commission of the Workers' Party of Korea announced the 310 slogans to mark the 70th anniversary of the liberation of the country from the 1910-45 Japanese colonial rule as well as the founding of the governing party, according to the Korea Central News Agency (KCNA).

Noteworthy among the long list were calls to shore up the North Korean economy and enhance the livelihoods of the country's citizens.

Among the slogans calling for livelihood enhancement was, "Make tireless efforts with an extraordinary determination to resolve the problems of the people's living at any cost!," according to the KCNA.

The slogans also stressed the regime's willingness to mend ties with South Korea.

"It is a long-cherished desire of all the fellow countrymen and an urgent task of the nation to put an end to the tragedy of national division that has lasted 70 years," one of the slogans read.

Lately, the North has shown signs of attempts to thaw long-standing tension with Seoul, with North Korean leader Kim Jong-un expressing his desire to open inter-Korean talks during his New Year's address earlier this year.

Also, I don't know if this is important, but the Choson Sinbo (North Korea-affiliated newspaper for Koreans in Japan) has recently been calling North Korea a "flexible collectivist system."

[Jukulia]

It's quite strange that Pyongyang is where most of the DPRK's elite reside. Drive along the countryside and you'll see no cities but villages that consist of small, old houses. And for over half a century, the "Hermit Kingdom" still has the Kim family in power.

"Let us rise up in the nationwide struggle to drive the US imperialist aggressive forces, the root cause of national misfortune and war, out of south Korea!"

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

Hey, maybe Kim Jong-un is actually a decent guy whose just had to act like an asshole in order to satisfy the politics his father and grandfather left him with? If North Korea can turn itself around and obtain a decent quality of life for its citizens, I'll be the first to admit it and be glad for it.

Unlike some, I don't really care about ideology when it comes to North Korea. What I care about is Koreans.

[Crezilivion]

It's like watching a cult

No, it's like watching a woman who works in a coat factory who, in a capitalist Asian country, would be living in a slum. But in the DPRK she is taken care of very well.

As a capitalist I think that is a problem. If they get well rewarded for doing something that does not serve a huge number of people then where is the motivation to progress or do better? When people become content they usually get stuck in this comfort zone and quit attempting to improve themselves. Also my mother worked several low pay jobs like that in a capitalistic country and she most certainly did not live in a slum and was above the poverty line. She worked hard to provide for her back-then family and was compensated more for working more than one job, which of course resulted in serving more people.

I have also heard that there are many restrictions, I have heard that even your hair cut is regulated regardless of circumstances in North Korea. This lack of freedom is something that concerns me.

Previously you said that the Supreme Leader was not chosen by the people but then said he was elected by elected people. Can you explain how he/she is put into or comes to power in more detail?

[Hanryo]

Looking at the links Arumdaum posted, I hope North Korea starts moving in the direction of Vietnam and China.

This piece is a few years old, but it suggests that Vietnam, rather than China, is a more likely model for DPRK's economic development.

It's also interesting to note that Kim Jong-un has been talking about economic reform for several years now.

I think if the DPRK is serious about opening itself economically, and if the ROK were to return to something like the Sunshine Policy of the late 90s and early 2000s (seems like a long shot now with the current President, but you never know), I think we might see real steps toward unification, perhaps beyond what we saw under President Roh.

[Napkiraly]

I didn't know where else to post this. Apparently adultery is still illegal in South Korea.

Meh. It's nothing bad. Hell, iirc adultery is still a crime within the US military and 21 states.

[Wanderjar]

The really ironic thing is that the DPRK should be significantly more wealthy than South Korea, because of the massive deposits of mineral resources there. This is part of the reason for the 1980s and early 90s experiment with a maquiladora system in the north sponsored by the South. If the Kims were smart, they would've milked that for all it's worth, and that's a lot. Instead? As soon as Kim il-Jong took over he threw a tantrum, had all the factories closed down and held the managers hostage for awhile until the US convinced them to release them. I don't think Kim Jong Un is crazy, just playing a necessary role. Kim Il-Jong however, was completely batshit nuts.

[The Imperial Japanese Shogunate]

The really ironic thing is that the DPRK should be significantly more wealthy than South Korea, because of the massive deposits of mineral resources there. This is part of the reason for the 1980s and early 90s experiment with a maquiladora system in the north sponsored by the South. If the Kims were smart, they would've milked that for all it's worth, and that's a lot. Instead? As soon as Kim il-Jong took over he threw a tantrum, had all the factories closed down and held the managers hostage for awhile until the US convinced them to release them. I don't think Kim Jong Un is crazy, just playing a necessary role. Kim Il-Jong however, was completely batshit nuts.

I believe I saw Madeleine Albright interviewed once, and reflecting back on her meeting(s) with him, said he didn't find him crazy at all. Mind you, deliberately neglecting your population to the brink of genocide very well may be insanity in itself, which I think it is.

[Arumdaum]

The really ironic thing is that the DPRK should be significantly more wealthy than South Korea, because of the massive deposits of mineral resources there. This is part of the reason for the 1980s and early 90s experiment with a maquiladora system in the north sponsored by the South. If the Kims were smart, they would've milked that for all it's worth, and that's a lot. Instead? As soon as Kim il-Jong took over he threw a tantrum, had all the factories closed down and held the managers hostage for awhile until the US convinced them to release them. I don't think Kim Jong Un is crazy, just playing a necessary role. Kim Il-Jong however, was completely batshit nuts.

Kim Il-jong what lol

Also 80s 90s maquiladora what

[Arumdaum]

Looking at the links Arumdaum posted, I hope North Korea starts moving in the direction of Vietnam and China.

This piece is a few years old, but it suggests that Vietnam, rather than China, is a more likely model for DPRK's economic development.

It's also interesting to note that Kim Jong-un has been talking about economic reform for several years now.

I think if the DPRK is serious about opening itself economically, and if the ROK were to return to something like the Sunshine Policy of the late 90s and early 2000s (seems like a long shot now with the current President, but you never know), I think we might see real steps toward unification, perhaps beyond what we saw under President Roh.

North Korea's been interested in changing its economic direction for a while now, IIRC from the early 1990s while North Korea was still ruled by Kim Il-sung (not sure about exact details or whatever).

North Korea did attempt some economic reform measures in 2002, such as with legalizing the private farms that many North Koreans had set up during the famine on mountainsides as long as they were registered with the government, but that example I think generally just represents North Korean merely recognizing the reality of the situation and attempting to collect tax revenue from them rather than a genuine attempt at reform. I don't know how comprehensive they were, and IIRC they were partly rolled back. I don't think it was that big though. Definitely not like the one that's being implemented now.

North Korea's been experimenting a bit; there were some other reforms during the summer of 2013 and from what I've read North Korea is looking at the results from that and going ahead with larger reformations to the economy.

Park Geun-hye sucks~~~

and so did 명박이

[Costa Fierro]

When do you see the two Koreas reuniting?

Not anytime soon. People expected it to happen very soon during the 1990s, but not much progress has been made on that.

However, something we do see is smuggled South Korean cultural products gaining widespread popularity in the North, with even local heads of security branches secretly enjoying them as well (some were recently executed for this). The ability of North Korea to control all of the media to which its denizens have access sort of fell apart during the Arduous March.

North Korean officials, when going to China on business, love to sing South Korean songs (although often they may not be aware that they are singing these songs) at karaokes. What's interesting is that this is apparently tolerated to a certain extent.

Considering the large amount of gray area private sector activity occurring in North Korea which has been growing since the collapse of North Korea's economy during the 1990s, and how North Korea is planning to roll out more drastic economic liberalization policies beginning this year after experimenting with it a bit in the past, I think we may see the cultural divide that's formed in the past sixty years close up again a little bit.

So presumably the Koreas bay be reunited when and if North Korea achieves a level of economic and development that allows for complete integration?

[Geilinor]

Not anytime soon. People expected it to happen very soon during the 1990s, but not much progress has been made on that.

However, something we do see is smuggled South Korean cultural products gaining widespread popularity in the North, with even local heads of security branches secretly enjoying them as well (some were recently executed for this). The ability of North Korea to control all of the media to which its denizens have access sort of fell apart during the Arduous March.

North Korean officials, when going to China on business, love to sing South Korean songs (although often they may not be aware that they are singing these songs) at karaokes. What's interesting is that this is apparently tolerated to a certain extent.

Considering the large amount of gray area private sector activity occurring in North Korea which has been growing since the collapse of North Korea's economy during the 1990s, and how North Korea is planning to roll out more drastic economic liberalization policies beginning this year after experimenting with it a bit in the past, I think we may see the cultural divide that's formed in the past sixty years close up again a little bit.

So presumably the Koreas bay be reunited when and if North Korea achieves a level of economic and development that allows for complete integration?

Perhaps, but it's unknown if North Korea will be able to catch up given how less developed than the South it is right now.

[Seraven]

Basically a criminal gang that runs a country. A global embarrassment.

That's a stretch.

They are a nationalistic-kind of government.

[Arumdaum]

Not anytime soon. People expected it to happen very soon during the 1990s, but not much progress has been made on that.

However, something we do see is smuggled South Korean cultural products gaining widespread popularity in the North, with even local heads of security branches secretly enjoying them as well (some were recently executed for this). The ability of North Korea to control all of the media to which its denizens have access sort of fell apart during the Arduous March.

North Korean officials, when going to China on business, love to sing South Korean songs (although often they may not be aware that they are singing these songs) at karaokes. What's interesting is that this is apparently tolerated to a certain extent.

Considering the large amount of gray area private sector activity occurring in North Korea which has been growing since the collapse of North Korea's economy during the 1990s, and how North Korea is planning to roll out more drastic economic liberalization policies beginning this year after experimenting with it a bit in the past, I think we may see the cultural divide that's formed in the past sixty years close up again a little bit.

So presumably the Koreas bay be reunited when and if North Korea achieves a level of economic and development that allows for complete integration?

No.

The most important thing is North Korea's retention of the current dictatorship. North Korea would mainly just have to give up its leadership system in order for Korea to be reunited. Economic development is mostly just important in terms of how difficult or eased the transition will be, as well as what the public's opinion is going to be on reunification.