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Google may stop censoring searches from China

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Neu Leonstein
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Google may stop censoring searches from China

Postby Neu Leonstein » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:55 pm

http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/ ... oogle+Blog)
Official Google Blog wrote:Like many other well-known organizations, we face cyber attacks of varying degrees on a regular basis. In mid-December, we detected a highly sophisticated and targeted attack on our corporate infrastructure originating from China that resulted in the theft of intellectual property from Google. However, it soon became clear that what at first appeared to be solely a security incident--albeit a significant one--was something quite different.

First, this attack was not just on Google. As part of our investigation we have discovered that at least twenty other large companies from a wide range of businesses--including the Internet, finance, technology, media and chemical sectors--have been similarly targeted. We are currently in the process of notifying those companies, and we are also working with the relevant U.S. authorities.

Second, we have evidence to suggest that a primary goal of the attackers was accessing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists...

[...]

These attacks and the surveillance they have uncovered--combined with the attempts over the past year to further limit free speech on the web--have led us to conclude that we should review the feasibility of our business operations in China. We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on Google.cn, and so over the next few weeks we will be discussing with the Chinese government the basis on which we could operate an unfiltered search engine within the law, if at all. We recognize that this may well mean having to shut down Google.cn, and potentially our offices in China.

[...]


If this turns out to be for real, it might get interesting...what do you reckon?
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Non Aligned States
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Postby Non Aligned States » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:58 pm

They might also close down their offices entirely. The PRC might have found sneakarounds being done by Google and part of their bag of tricks is to simply make it untenable for them to operate there, resulting in greater isolation of external service providers.

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Lord-General Drache
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Postby Lord-General Drache » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:59 pm

I lost respect for Google when they started aiding that oppressive regime in the first place. It's taken them a few years and getting quite a bit of money in the process of censoring people in a fucked up place to realize that MAYBE it wasn't the most ethical thing to do? Please. They probably got tired of people bitching at them for being money whoring bastards, or they weren't getting paid like they wanted to.
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Barringtonia
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Postby Barringtonia » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:59 pm

I'm on an email chain about this, frankly I'd say Google should just leave google.cn open, un-censored and if China wants to block it then so be it.

I don't think the hacking of accounts is related to the censorship of search results so much, the hacking will likely continue I suppose but, well, I'm a Sinophile and I'm just utterly tired of the government's paranoia.
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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:00 pm

the implication seems to be that the chinese government was fucking with them.

do you suppose thats true?
whatever

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Inertina
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Postby Inertina » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:01 pm

good for them. Google generally always has my vote. Now if their operating system turns out well, I might be switching to that over windows.

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Bazatia
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Postby Bazatia » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:03 pm

Ashmoria wrote:the implication seems to be that the chinese government was fucking with them.

do you suppose thats true?


Yeah, pretty much.
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The Republic of Lanos
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Postby The Republic of Lanos » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:03 pm

now you can look up Falun Gong and the real truth about Tiatemen Square. which means Google will get blocked.

Good for freedom, bad for china. i support Google. :clap:

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Riaka
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Postby Riaka » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:04 pm

Lord-General Drache wrote:I lost respect for Google when they started aiding that oppressive regime in the first place. It's taken them a few years and getting quite a bit of money in the process of censoring people in a fucked up place to realize that MAYBE it wasn't the most ethical thing to do? Please. They probably got tired of people bitching at them for being money whoring bastards, or they weren't getting paid like they wanted to.


It sounds bad at first, but in the end Google decided that it would be better for the people of China to at least have some form of browser that wasn't controlled by their omnipresent government. That of course, comes from the mouth of a corporate spokesperson, and thus should only be taken at face value.
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Barringtonia
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Postby Barringtonia » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:05 pm

Ashmoria wrote:the implication seems to be that the chinese government was fucking with them.

do you suppose thats true?


Absolutely, Youtube and Facebook are blocked in China as well, Google.cn is constantly up and down.

It's becoming intensely boring if nothing else. After the promises of the Olympics, it's even worse that when I was living there from '99 - '06 now,

'Don't be evil' is supposed to be Google's motto, and frankly negotiating with the Chinese government is just too much a pain in the ass to be bothered with now.
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:05 pm

Lord-General Drache wrote:I lost respect for Google when they started aiding that oppressive regime in the first place. It's taken them a few years and getting quite a bit of money in the process of censoring people in a fucked up place to realize that MAYBE it wasn't the most ethical thing to do? Please. They probably got tired of people bitching at them for being money whoring bastards, or they weren't getting paid like they wanted to.


Well that's one of those things you have to do if you want to be in China.

I heard one activist talk about that. He said all search engine companies do it. The worst was Yahoo. He said they were practically falling over themselves to get information to the government.

Still Google does have the stench of hypocrisy as I remember them yabbering on about privacy rights......
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Lackadaisical2
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:06 pm

Typical shit from China. I really dislike their government in some aspects, I lost a lot of faith in Google when it went along with the gov't's censorship, but maybe it was just a way to fuck them over in the end.
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Hydesland
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Postby Hydesland » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:07 pm

Lord-General Drache wrote:I lost respect for Google when they started aiding that oppressive regime in the first place.


By obeying the law in that country? That's how multi-national businesses operate, each office HAS to function differently depending on the laws of the local country, they can't export their country of origins law onto other countries. Besides it wasn't like they had much of a choice, it was either provide a useful service, albeit filtered (the filter isn't actually that significant anyway, and easy to get around), or effectively get shut down or face a huge legal clusterfuck.

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Barringtonia
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Postby Barringtonia » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:09 pm

Hydesland wrote:
Lord-General Drache wrote:I lost respect for Google when they started aiding that oppressive regime in the first place.


By obeying the law in that country? That's how multi-national businesses operate, each office HAS to function differently depending on the laws of the local country, they can't export their country of origins law onto other countries. Besides it wasn't like they had much of a choice, it was either provide a useful service, albeit filtered (the filter isn't actually that significant anyway, and easy to get around), or effectively get shut down or face a huge legal clusterfuck.


It has nothing to do with the law, the actual law of China and the actions of the government are miles apart.

Given the law, you'd think China was fairyland.
I hear babies cry, I watch them grow
They'll learn much more than I'll ever know
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Lackadaisical2
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:10 pm

Barringtonia wrote:
Hydesland wrote:
Lord-General Drache wrote:I lost respect for Google when they started aiding that oppressive regime in the first place.


By obeying the law in that country? That's how multi-national businesses operate, each office HAS to function differently depending on the laws of the local country, they can't export their country of origins law onto other countries. Besides it wasn't like they had much of a choice, it was either provide a useful service, albeit filtered (the filter isn't actually that significant anyway, and easy to get around), or effectively get shut down or face a huge legal clusterfuck.


It has nothing to do with the law, the actual law of China and the actions of the government are miles apart.

Given the law, you'd think China was fairyland.

Ok, well they have to act within the realities of the political situation, lol.

Same idea, whether a law is on the books or not...

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Hydesland
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Postby Hydesland » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:13 pm

Barringtonia wrote:It has nothing to do with the law, the actual law of China and the actions of the government are miles apart.

Given the law, you'd think China was fairyland.


http://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Censor/cens3.html#china

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987456321159
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Postby 987456321159 » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:18 pm

Tell me when this happens, I might start using google.cn more often, then. I don't think it's right for any government to police the internet. The internet is limited to only one nation, therefore no nation should lord over it.

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Barringtonia
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Postby Barringtonia » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:20 pm

Hydesland wrote:
Barringtonia wrote:It has nothing to do with the law, the actual law of China and the actions of the government are miles apart.

Given the law, you'd think China was fairyland.


http://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Censor/cens3.html#china


Mostly the blanket cover everything with 'harmony', in that if the content is not 'harmonious' then it's not allowed, that provides enormous leeway for banning anything. Actually, the Chinese pun on the word 'he xie', which means harmony by using the characters for river crab (also he xie), though that's probably been noticed by now, still, it will move on.

Second, in order to secure the Olympics, China committed to reversing a lot of the early censorship it brought in, it has simply disregarded that entirely now the Olympics are over. The rules you post are from 2002, I'd have to check the actual conditions but I believe content should remain open and it simply hasn't, as I said, it's actually worse than when I was there.

Meanwhile, take Youku.com, the Chinese equivalent of Youtube, enormous copyright violations, you can watch pretty much any movie you want there.

Personally I feel a large problem with China was the rush to get in there and acquiesce so much so early - actually, Hong Kong can take a lot of the blame for China's problems, from corruption to acquiescing to the government.
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Blitzkrenia
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Postby Blitzkrenia » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:22 pm

987456321159 wrote:Tell me when this happens, I might start using google.cn more often, then. I don't think it's right for any government to police the internet. The internet is limited to only one nation, therefore no nation should lord over it.

What?
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Hydesland
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Postby Hydesland » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:26 pm

Barringtonia wrote:-snip-


Whatever. The point is that I doubt google has any interest at all in censorship themselves, rather they are just trying to prevent their business from facing much difficulty or possibly a shut down in that country, enabling people access to a highly useful and efficient service, but filtered, is preferable to no service at all. Google are hardly the culprit here, it's China.
Last edited by Hydesland on Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Barringtonia
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Postby Barringtonia » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:29 pm

Hydesland wrote:
Barringtonia wrote:-snip-


Whatever. The point is that I doubt google has any interest at all in censorship themselves, rather they are just trying to prevent their business from facing much difficulty or possibly a shut down in that country, enabling people access to a highly useful and efficient service, but filtered, is preferable to no service at all. Google are hardly the culprit here, it's China.


Totally, but I think there's a point at which Google can't accept it anymore, and I think that point has arrived - it's been awful this last year.

Having said that, it's enjoyable to cc friends in China on emails with Youtube links going 'OMG, the most amazing thing ever', especially if you can coordinate friends not in China to respond 'OMG, seriously, that was amazing, thanks for sending', since you then get whineful emails asking 'what is it, I can't access Youtube'.

joy,
I hear babies cry, I watch them grow
They'll learn much more than I'll ever know
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world



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Redwulf
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Postby Redwulf » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:39 pm

Neu Leonstein wrote:http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-china.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+blogspot/MKuf+(Official+Google+Blog)
Official Google Blog wrote:Like many other well-known organizations, we face cyber attacks of varying degrees on a regular basis. In mid-December, we detected a highly sophisticated and targeted attack on our corporate infrastructure originating from China that resulted in the theft of intellectual property from Google. However, it soon became clear that what at first appeared to be solely a security incident--albeit a significant one--was something quite different.

First, this attack was not just on Google. As part of our investigation we have discovered that at least twenty other large companies from a wide range of businesses--including the Internet, finance, technology, media and chemical sectors--have been similarly targeted. We are currently in the process of notifying those companies, and we are also working with the relevant U.S. authorities.

Second, we have evidence to suggest that a primary goal of the attackers was accessing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists...

[...]

These attacks and the surveillance they have uncovered--combined with the attempts over the past year to further limit free speech on the web--have led us to conclude that we should review the feasibility of our business operations in China. We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on Google.cn, and so over the next few weeks we will be discussing with the Chinese government the basis on which we could operate an unfiltered search engine within the law, if at all. We recognize that this may well mean having to shut down Google.cn, and potentially our offices in China.

[...]


If this turns out to be for real, it might get interesting...what do you reckon?


I reckon they should open rogue offices in China and should have done so long ago. Hell, they should have known something like this was coming.
Last edited by Redwulf on Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:41 pm

Barringtonia wrote:
Ashmoria wrote:the implication seems to be that the chinese government was fucking with them.

do you suppose thats true?


Absolutely, Youtube and Facebook are blocked in China as well, Google.cn is constantly up and down.

It's becoming intensely boring if nothing else. After the promises of the Olympics, it's even worse that when I was living there from '99 - '06 now,

'Don't be evil' is supposed to be Google's motto, and frankly negotiating with the Chinese government is just too much a pain in the ass to be bothered with now.

do you think that the chinese govt is getting worse that way? and if so, why?
whatever

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Redwulf
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Postby Redwulf » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:42 pm

Blitzkrenia wrote:
987456321159 wrote:Tell me when this happens, I might start using google.cn more often, then. I don't think it's right for any government to police the internet. The internet is limited to only one nation, therefore no nation should lord over it.

What?


I assume a missing not.
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Barringtonia
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Postby Barringtonia » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:49 pm

Ashmoria wrote:
Barringtonia wrote:
Ashmoria wrote:the implication seems to be that the chinese government was fucking with them.

do you suppose thats true?


Absolutely, Youtube and Facebook are blocked in China as well, Google.cn is constantly up and down.

It's becoming intensely boring if nothing else. After the promises of the Olympics, it's even worse that when I was living there from '99 - '06 now,

'Don't be evil' is supposed to be Google's motto, and frankly negotiating with the Chinese government is just too much a pain in the ass to be bothered with now.

do you think that the chinese govt is getting worse that way? and if so, why?


I don't know, I think they were made to open up during the Olympics and agreed to terms in order to win them and possibly didn't appreciate the criticism they'd receive for the slightest deviance from those terms.

The spotlight on the Olympics, for me, led to them over-reacting in response once over. Tiananmen itself was partly a result of the fact that the world's media was there because of Gorbachev's state visit - China just overreacts rather than appear beholden to foreign governments or media.

I guess people were somewhat emboldened by the relative relaxation during the Olympics and the government is simply reasserting its power, reminding people just who's in charge.
I hear babies cry, I watch them grow
They'll learn much more than I'll ever know
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world



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