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[PASSED] Liberate Coalition Of Freedom

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Cormac A Stark
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[PASSED] Liberate Coalition Of Freedom

Postby Cormac A Stark » Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:45 pm

Liberate Coalition of Freedom
A resolution to strike down Delegate-imposed barriers to free entry in a region.

Category: Liberation | Nominee (region): Coalition of Freedom | Proposed by: Cormac A Stark



Description: The Security Council,

Recognizing that Coalition of Freedom was recently invaded by a coalition of invaders including The Black Riders, Sicarius, and Madrigal;

Noting that The Black Riders have been condemned by this Council for their grievous crimes against interregional peace and goodwill;

Observing that these actions have been taken against Coalition of Freedom because the region has taken military action against The Black Riders in the past;

Recalling that Coalition of Freedom was placed under the authority of The Eternal Knights after its Founder nation ceased to exist, and that the regional population of Coalition of Freedom has begun the process of merging with The Eternal Knights;

Asserting that the fate of Coalition of Freedom should be left to the regional community of Coalition of Freedom and The Eternal Knights, whom they have entrusted with their security;

Insisting that this Council should be proactive in defeating operations by The Black Riders whenever possible in order to curb their negative impact on interregional peace and goodwill:

Hereby Liberates Coalition of Freedom.
Last edited by Sedgistan on Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Chester Pearson
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Postby Chester Pearson » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:20 pm

So let me get this straight Cormac? You oppose a liberation of Canada, because you support The Black Hawks raid, yet you submit a resolution to liberate a meaningless region, because it was raided by The Riders? Seems pretty hypocritical if you ask me.
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The Leningrad Union
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Postby The Leningrad Union » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:24 pm

Chester Pearson wrote:So let me get this straight Cormac? You oppose a liberation of Canada, because you support The Black Hawks raid, yet you submit a resolution to liberate a meaningless region, because it was raided by The Riders? Seems pretty hypocritical if you ask me.

Especially when this raid was somewhat justified, even defenders didn't want to stop it.

I think it was submitted because this can pass easily. No matter who is being liberated, most WADs approve of almost any liberation.
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Frattastan II
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Postby Frattastan II » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:56 pm

Chester Pearson wrote:So let me get this straight Cormac? You oppose a liberation of Canada, because you support The Black Hawks raid, yet you submit a resolution to liberate a meaningless region, because it was raided by The Riders? Seems pretty hypocritical if you ask me.


Anything to flood the queue.
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Chester Pearson
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Postby Chester Pearson » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:11 pm

Please tell me someone is running a counter-camapign to this?
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Cormac A Stark
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Postby Cormac A Stark » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:27 pm

Chester Pearson wrote:So let me get this straight Cormac? You oppose a liberation of Canada, because you support The Black Hawks raid, yet you submit a resolution to liberate a meaningless region, because it was raided by The Riders? Seems pretty hypocritical if you ask me.

Osiris has relations with The Eternal Knights, and their protectorate, Coalition of Freedom, is being invaded by a coalition of regions with whom Osiris does not have relations. By contrast, Osiris does not have relations with Canada and it was invaded by our treaty allies in the United Imperial Armed Forces in a joint operation with a fellow GCR, The West Pacific, and The Black Hawks, with whom Osiris does have relations.

The Osiris Fraternal Order acts based on regional interests and actual relations with regions, rather than moralistic or ideological concerns. While from your moralistic perspective supporting one invasion while opposing another may look inconsistent and hypocritical, from the perspective of our actual regional interests it is entirely consistent.

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Tooters
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Postby Tooters » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:33 pm

I suggest that everyone who approves of this take away their approval. C of F is a dumb region that doesn't need the liberation

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Cormac A Stark
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Postby Cormac A Stark » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:35 pm

Tooters wrote:I suggest that everyone who approves of this take away their approval. C of F is a dumb region that doesn't need the liberation

Thank you for your insightful commentary.

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Frattastan II
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Postby Frattastan II » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:36 pm

I like that you feel the need to add "actual" before "regional interests", as if regional interests weren't abstractions, but things somehow more material and less ideological than self-determination, or the respect for active and peaceful regions, or the solidarity between founderless communities.
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Chester Pearson
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Postby Chester Pearson » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:37 pm

Cormac A Stark wrote:
Chester Pearson wrote:So let me get this straight Cormac? You oppose a liberation of Canada, because you support The Black Hawks raid, yet you submit a resolution to liberate a meaningless region, because it was raided by The Riders? Seems pretty hypocritical if you ask me.

Osiris has relations with The Eternal Knights, and their protectorate, Coalition of Freedom, is being invaded by a coalition of regions with whom Osiris does not have relations. By contrast, Osiris does not have relations with Canada and it was invaded by our treaty allies in the United Imperial Armed Forces in a joint operation with a fellow GCR, The West Pacific, and The Black Hawks, with whom Osiris does have relations.

The Osiris Fraternal Order acts based on regional interests and actual relations with regions, rather than moralistic or ideological concerns. While from your moralistic perspective supporting one invasion while opposing another may look inconsistent and hypocritical, from the perspective of our actual regional interests it is entirely consistent.


Oh please....

Osiris has never been loyal to anyone, and neither have you. You were willing to sell out your entire region just to negotiate some stupid arrangement with Durk, who was controlling the region through Douria (who is now the Vice-Delegate of your region I might add), and then reneged on the whole thing. I understand you are a game player, much like I used to be, but lets not bullshit each other here. Just admit this is a cover to keep a liberation of Canada out of vote as long as possible, and we can all move on.
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Xicirus
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Postby Xicirus » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:42 pm

Cormac A Stark wrote:
Chester Pearson wrote:So let me get this straight Cormac? You oppose a liberation of Canada, because you support The Black Hawks raid, yet you submit a resolution to liberate a meaningless region, because it was raided by The Riders? Seems pretty hypocritical if you ask me.

Osiris has relations with The Eternal Knights, and their protectorate, Coalition of Freedom, is being invaded by a coalition of regions with whom Osiris does not have relations. By contrast, Osiris does not have relations with Canada and it was invaded by our treaty allies in the United Imperial Armed Forces in a joint operation with a fellow GCR, The West Pacific, and The Black Hawks, with whom Osiris does have relations.

The Osiris Fraternal Order acts based on regional interests and actual relations with regions, rather than moralistic or ideological concerns. While from your moralistic perspective supporting one invasion while opposing another may look inconsistent and hypocritical, from the perspective of our actual regional interests it is entirely consistent.


All this is very intresting, but it doesn't answer the fundamental points I've been raising and that you conviniently ignored. The Eternal Knights have deliberately abandonned their protectorate, and have stated they didn't care about it. Why would you write and submit a draft for them in that case? If holding COF was in the intrests of TEK, and therefore yours to an extent, they would have spent time refounding it. The population remaining there is inactive, and it's leaders do not care about its fate.

Seeing you act on their behalf like this shows that you are in fact either stalling Canada's liberation, as Fratt shrewdly pointed out, or that you are trying to undermine raiders efforts for the sake of it.

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The Leningrad Union
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Postby The Leningrad Union » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:45 pm

Cormac, if this isn't a huge misunderstanding, you are literally spitting on raider unity. Trying to stop raiders so other raiders don't have anything happen to them is extremely and utterly disgraceful to the whole raider unity cause. I condemn your actions.
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Tooters
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Postby Tooters » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:47 pm

Cormac A Stark wrote:
Tooters wrote:I suggest that everyone who approves of this take away their approval. C of F is a dumb region that doesn't need the liberation

Thank you for your insightful commentary.

LOL the reason I don't want this resolution to pass, me being a defender, is that it mentions various raider groups. The mentioned groups are only encouraged by this and this only leads to more raids. I personally will not be approving this, but I do support a liberation of C of F. I am sorry for the curt message I left earlier, I under thought it.

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Cormac A Stark
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Postby Cormac A Stark » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:50 pm

Frattastan II wrote:I like that you feel the need to add "actual" before "regional interests", as if regional interests weren't abstractions, but things somehow more material and less ideological than self-determination, or the respect for active and peaceful regions, or the solidarity between founderless communities.

I actually added the word "actual" before "relations with regions." Those can be quantified, whereas the abstract concepts you've mentioned can't. Moreover, while our regional interests are based on some more abstract concepts in addition to objective relations between regions, the latter are definitely a significant factor if not the overriding factor.

Chester Pearson wrote:Oh please....

Osiris has never been loyal to anyone, and neither have you. You were willing to sell out your entire region just to negotiate some stupid arrangement with Durk, who was controlling the region through Douria (who is now the Vice-Delegate of your region I might add), and then reneged on the whole thing. I understand you are a game player, much like I used to be, but lets not bullshit each other here. Just admit this is a cover to keep a liberation of Canada out of vote as long as possible, and we can all move on.

I don't believe I even know you, so I don't appreciate your petty insults against me or my region nor am I inclined to address them in much depth. This has nothing to do with Liberate Canada as I'm confident a liberation resolution for Canada won't pass, in any case.

Xicirus wrote:All this is very intresting, but it doesn't answer the fundamental points I've been raising and that you conviniently ignored. The Eternal Knights have deliberately abandonned their protectorate, and have stated they didn't care about it. Why would you write and submit a draft for them in that case? If holding COF was in the intrests of TEK, and therefore yours to an extent, they would have spent time refounding it. The population remaining there is inactive, and it's leaders do not care about its fate.

Seeing you act on their behalf like this shows that you are in fact either stalling Canada's liberation, as Fratt shrewdly pointed out, or that you are trying to undermine raiders efforts for the sake of it.

I've been in communication with The Eternal Knights in regard to Coalition of Freedom. I would not have acted without their support and indeed Nephmir campaigned on behalf of this proposal. Again, this has nothing to do with Liberate Canada, though I'm certainly not sorry it will be stalled, and I doubt The Eternal Knights -- who are not overly fond of raiders -- would do anything to intentionally assist me in aiding the raiders currently occupying Canada.

The Leningrad Union wrote:Cormac, if this isn't a huge misunderstanding, you are literally spitting on raider unity. Trying to stop raiders so other raiders don't have anything happen to them is extremely and utterly disgraceful to the whole raider unity cause. I condemn your actions.

Neither I nor the Osiris Fraternal Order adhere to raider unity. We are imperialists.

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Chester Pearson
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Postby Chester Pearson » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:52 pm

Cormac A Stark wrote:I don't believe I even know you, so I don't appreciate your petty insults against me or my region nor am I inclined to address them in much depth.


You know me far better than you think you do....
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Xicirus
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Postby Xicirus » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:02 pm

So, if I understand correctly, TEK is aware of sleepers, let its protectorate get captured by emptying it, not sending reinforcements and evacuating most WA's from the region, and then proceeds to submit a liberation? This takes us all back to my first argument.

As such, the council should not waste time liberating this region, as its active population has moved, and as its leader do not care about it.


If they wanted to keep it and cared about it, they could have easily, they had the means to do it. They instead chose to abandon it and its founder have publically stated that:

Rifty wrote:I've got to say i don't give two shits xD
.

That is their decision, and the council should not intervene in this matter.

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Chester Pearson
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Postby Chester Pearson » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:06 pm

Xicirus wrote:So, if I understand correctly, TEK is aware of sleepers, let its protectorate get captured by emptying it, not sending reinforcements and evacuating most WA's from the region, and then proceeds to submit a liberation? This takes us all back to my first argument.

As such, the council should not waste time liberating this region, as its active population has moved, and as its leader do not care about it.


If they wanted to keep it and cared about it, they could have easily, they had the means to do it. They instead chose to abandon it and its founder have publically stated that:

Rifty wrote:I've got to say i don't give two shits xD
.

That is their decision, and the council should not intervene in this matter.


Which all comes back to Cormac's plan, of stalling a liberation of Canada. He can say what he wants, but he is as transparent as glass....
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Cormac A Stark
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Postby Cormac A Stark » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:09 pm

I'll let The Eternal Knights address that particular line of argument, if they wish to.

Regardless, I don't see how the invading coalition has anymore right to govern Coalition of Freedom than the regional community, even if it has moved. Part of the liberation resolution's argument is that it doesn't benefit the Security Council to let The Black Riders be successful anywhere, as they are condemned by the Security Council and we should oppose victories that would make them more powerful and enhance their ability to recruit.

In short, regardless of the status of the CoF regional community, why just let The Black Riders have a victory here?
Last edited by Cormac A Stark on Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Leningrad Union
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Postby The Leningrad Union » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:12 pm

Cormac A Stark wrote:I'll let The Eternal Knights address that particular line of argument, if they wish to.

Regardless, I don't see how the invading coalition has anymore right to govern Coalition of Freedom than the regional community, even if it has moved. Part of the liberation resolution's argument is that it doesn't benefit the Security Council to let The Black Riders be successful anywhere, as they are condemned by the Security Council and we should oppose victories that would make them more powerful and enhance their ability to recruit.

In short, regardless of the status of the CoF regional community, why just let The Black Riders have a victory here?

This wasn't even a TBR raid.
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Chester Pearson
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Postby Chester Pearson » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:13 pm

Cormac A Stark wrote:Regardless, I don't see how the invading coalition has anymore right to govern Coalition of Freedom than the regional community, even if it has moved. Part of the liberation resolution's argument is that it doesn't benefit the Security Council to let The Black Riders be successful anywhere, as they are condemned by the Security Council and we should oppose victories that would make them more powerful and enhance their ability to recruit.


But The Hawks, along with Osiris have the right to govern and grief Canada? How exactly does it benefit the Council to let The Black Hawks be successful anywhere, seeing as how they have been condemned by the council as well?

The Leningrad Union wrote:This wasn't even a TBR raid.


You really want to see something funny? Turn the region over to Nazi Europa, and watch Cormac lose his mind....
Last edited by Chester Pearson on Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cormac A Stark
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Postby Cormac A Stark » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:20 pm

The Leningrad Union wrote:This wasn't even a TBR raid.

The Black Riders are listed on the WFE, and there were six Riders involved -- more than the combined contribution of the two other regions involved. This is not even to mention that Sicarius and Madrigal are essentially regarded as TBR Jr., when they're regarded as anything at all.

Chester Pearson wrote:But The Hawks, along with Osiris have the right to govern and grief Canada? How exactly does it benefit the Council to let The Black Hawks be successful anywhere, seeing as how they have been condemned by the council as well?

As I've already established, it's in Osiris' interests to support the invasion of Canada and it isn't in our interests to support the invasion of Coalition of Freedom. It would be nonsensical for us to author or support a liberation resolution to disrupt an invasion that we not only support, but in which we participated. On the other hand, we have no relations with The Black Riders, a history of hostility between our regions, and they are invading a region protected by another region with whom we do have relations and could have a future military partnership.

This isn't a difficult concept. Other regions can decide what is in their interests and vote accordingly, or according to their moralistic or ideological inclinations if that's their preference.

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Xicirus
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Postby Xicirus » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:22 pm

Cormac A Stark wrote:I'll let The Eternal Knights address that particular line of argument, if they wish to.

Regardless, I don't see how the invading coalition has anymore right to govern Coalition of Freedom than the regional community, even if it has moved. Part of the liberation resolution's argument is that it doesn't benefit the Security Council to let The Black Riders be successful anywhere, as they are condemned by the Security Council and we should oppose victories that would make them more powerful and enhance their ability to recruit.

In short, regardless of the status of the CoF regional community, why just let The Black Riders have a victory here?

Because that's precisely what TEK wanted? Leaving COF vulnerable while being perfectly aware that the region was going to get raided is a perfect opportunity to pass a liberation and earn some cheap publicity.
This council should not support this type of stunt and those responsible for it should face the consequences of their carelessness.

There is in fact another possibility. The Knights didn't actually have the military capabilities to refound, and covered their weakness with a ''we don't care attitude''. Very well, if they don't care, they shouldn't attempt to pass a liberation.

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Chester Pearson
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Postby Chester Pearson » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:25 pm

Cormac A Stark wrote:
Chester Pearson wrote:But The Hawks, along with Osiris have the right to govern and grief Canada? How exactly does it benefit the Council to let The Black Hawks be successful anywhere, seeing as how they have been condemned by the council as well?

As I've already established, it's in Osiris' interests to support the invasion of Canada and it isn't in our interests to support the invasion of Coalition of Freedom. It would be nonsensical for us to author or support a liberation resolution to disrupt an invasion that we not only support, but in which we participated. On the other hand, we have no relations with The Black Riders, a history of hostility between our regions, and they are invading a region protected by another region with whom we do have relations and could have a future military partnership.

This isn't a difficult concept. Other regions can decide what is in their interests and vote accordingly, or according to their moralistic or ideological inclinations if that's their preference.


What possible "military relationship" could you have with a dead region. Come on Cormac, be a little more inventive? The founder of the region said he didn't give a shit of the region was raided. What more proof do we need that this is nothing but a farce?
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Nephmir
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Postby Nephmir » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:30 pm

I'll let The Eternal Knights address that particular line of argument, if they wish to.

Cormac speaks the truth... I asked for this proposal to be submitted. I didn't think he'd get this crap along with it.

The Leningrad Union wrote:Cormac, if this isn't a huge misunderstanding, you are literally spitting on raider unity. Trying to stop raiders so other raiders don't have anything happen to them is extremely and utterly disgraceful to the whole raider unity cause. I condemn your actions.

How dare someone with influence defy the all superior and all powerful Raider Unity? Get used to it, It's called "opposition", something Raiders haven't seen in years.

The Knights didn't actually have the military capabilities to refound, and covered their weakness with a ''we don't care attitude''. Very well, if they don't care, they shouldn't attempt to pass a liberation.

It's precisely this propaganda that's gotten us such a reputation of a weak and helpless Raider organization as of recent despite our surge of power and recent capabilities (that we have not even exercised yet) and the fact that our ideology is becoming a little more well known and supported. I'm sick of people spitting on TEK for no good reason, and I will not stand by and allow it any longer.
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Ramaeus
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Postby Ramaeus » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:30 pm

Lenin, aren't raids based on petty grievances such fun? You get to show just how far you're willing to go when someone slights you. Bravo, you've proven just how strong you are!
The Leningrad Union wrote:Especially when this raid was somewhat justified, even defenders didn't want to stop it.

Somewhat justified? The only "justification" you've provided to me was that you don't like Riftend. That doesn't qualify as a justification. And my "justification" for supporting this liberation is equally petty: I don't like what you put on the WFE about our General.
Chester Pearson wrote:Osiris has never been loyal to anyone

Actually, Osiris has been a loyal ally to TEP. And if you're going to judge loyalty, at least be in a position where, you know, you can actually judge loyalty, rather than basing your opinions on your obviously biased perspective with little evidence to adequately back up your assertion.
Former thing.

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