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[Callisdrun]

You know, I've written a lot in other threads about the whole thing that TV Tropes calls "Mighty Whitey," and it's in the movie full force, but the sensitivity over 'humans are bastards' things is a little, well, sensitive.

Aren't the scientists humans? The helicopter pilot? Is there really any indication that humanity has any notion of how their unobtanium is being obtained? The bastards are the same bastards that have been bastards in every James Cameron movie since Piranha 2-corporations.

True. However, I don't mind the humans are bastards trope. I don't see why having humans as the antagonists in a movie is inherently bad, as some of Avatar's critics seem to think. There's plenty to criticize it about, mainly the extreme heavy-handedness of the plot and lack of depth in the villains. Humans being bastards I think is just fine in a movie.

Also, as you point out, there are good humans as well.

[Abdju]

Also, as you point out, there are good humans as well.

That's just librul apologist propaganda. James Cameron, like all those envrionmentalist leftie hippie-nazis HATE ALL HUMANS

But seriously, yeah I don't get that "every human is a bad guy" argument, when the film makes it clear that the researchers are opposed to what is happening, and some of the mercenaries as well. I'm just waiting for the Colonel Miles Quaritch / Lieutenant Aldo Raine crossover... Now that is a film everyone could enjoy...

[SaintB]

I loved the technical aspect of the movie. Absolutely incredible.

I gave a massive eyeroll when the "these guys messed up the green on thier planet and want to do it here" line. This is more liberal green "worship the earth" crap. "Save the trees, kill the children" kind of thing.

I will watch it again probably, I am just disappointed at the propaganda.

Glenn Beck is propaganda, a movie where someone decides to hug a tree is a movie where someone decides to hug a tree, Bowling for Columbine is propaganda, a movie with space marines (can I get an applause for space marines whether good or evil?) who blow stuff up because they are ordered to is a movie with space marines doing what space marines do.

Lesson here: Avatar is a movie with beautiful scenery and space marines; its not a propaganda film.

[SaintB]

You know, I've written a lot in other threads about the whole thing that TV Tropes calls "Mighty Whitey," and it's in the movie full force, but the sensitivity over 'humans are bastards' things is a little, well, sensitive.

Aren't the scientists humans? The helicopter pilot? Is there really any indication that humanity has any notion of how their unobtanium is being obtained? The bastards are the same bastards that have been bastards in every James Cameron movie since Piranha 2-corporations.

True. However, I don't mind the humans are bastards trope. I don't see why having humans as the antagonists in a movie is inherently bad, as some of Avatar's critics seem to think. There's plenty to criticize it about, mainly the extreme heavy-handedness of the plot and lack of depth in the villains. Humans being bastards I think is just fine in a movie.

Also, as you point out, there are good humans as well.

I don't remember this kind of stuff being said about D-9. Where the humans (even the protagonist) were clearly bastards and the aliens just wanted to go home.

[SaintB]

Have you ever read a newspaper before? Conservatives bitch about everything. Conservatives are pro-destruction and violence, therefore they protest anything that is sane. Although I think one of the key things they have trouble with is the fact that the president is too dark-skinned for their taste...

With all due respect those people are not actually conservatives.

[SaintB]

When will people learn to read the "Science-Fiction" Description of these sorts of things...it's just a movie probably not ment to insult anybody.

SF has a long and glorious history of making explicit and uncomfortably powerful political commentary.

That is exactly what I was thinking. Science fiction often carries a political message, so why is everyone shocked? Just because a movie isn't all about big explosions and action (and I'm sure Avatar has enough of these, too) like in Transformers, it doesn't mean it's propaganda. I'm sure with some effort you could also interpret a political message into those crappy Transformers movies, it just wouldn't be a liberal one.
That said, I'm going to watch Avatar after Christmas. It will be my first movie in 3d and I hope it is as good as everyone says.

Transformers is pro Immigration.

[Callisdrun]

You know, I've written a lot in other threads about the whole thing that TV Tropes calls "Mighty Whitey," and it's in the movie full force, but the sensitivity over 'humans are bastards' things is a little, well, sensitive.

Aren't the scientists humans? The helicopter pilot? Is there really any indication that humanity has any notion of how their unobtanium is being obtained? The bastards are the same bastards that have been bastards in every James Cameron movie since Piranha 2-corporations.

True. However, I don't mind the humans are bastards trope. I don't see why having humans as the antagonists in a movie is inherently bad, as some of Avatar's critics seem to think. There's plenty to criticize it about, mainly the extreme heavy-handedness of the plot and lack of depth in the villains. Humans being bastards I think is just fine in a movie.

Also, as you point out, there are good humans as well.

I don't remember this kind of stuff being said about D-9. Where the humans (even the protagonist) were clearly bastards and the aliens just wanted to go home.

Indeed. People are making a bigger deal of it than it is. D-9 was, I think, even more anti-human. The humans are almost universally complete bastards, and the (VERY few) sympathetic ones aren't all that saintly either. Whereas in Cameron's movie, there are several undeniably good human characters, and we have no idea if the general population back on Earth knows and/or approves of what's going on with Pandora.

I agree also with your posts concerning the "waaah! it's hippy propaganda!" crap. Writers/Directors having opinions and expressing them in their work does not equal propaganda.

Plus, there have been quite a few movies that are highly critical of humans and specifically the USA, and corporations. Some are even regarded as classics.

[Bavin]

Eh, I guess since Avatar is Dances with Wolves, but in space, I guess those criticisms would apply to DwW too.

Also, indoctrination in the movie was fail, I was still rooting for the humans at the end.

[Callisdrun]

Eh, I guess since Avatar is Dances with Wolves, but in space, I guess those criticisms would apply to DwW too.

Also, indoctrination in the movie was fail, I was still rooting for the humans at the end.

Why? They were cunts.

[Bavin]

Eh, I guess since Avatar is Dances with Wolves, but in space, I guess those criticisms would apply to DwW too.

Also, indoctrination in the movie was fail, I was still rooting for the humans at the end.

Why? They were cunts.

It was implied that the Unobtainium (TVTropes in-joke I guess) was needed for the human race to survive. While RDA's methods were unpleasant, they didn't have the logistics to move their operation to richer areas, at least not without massive overhead costs. Also, I'm a bit of a speciesist.

Humans > Space Indians

[Callisdrun]

Eh, I guess since Avatar is Dances with Wolves, but in space, I guess those criticisms would apply to DwW too.

Also, indoctrination in the movie was fail, I was still rooting for the humans at the end.

Why? They were cunts.

It was implied that the Unobtainium (TVTropes in-joke I guess) was needed for the human race to survive. While RDA's methods were unpleasant, they didn't have the logistics to move their operation to richer areas, at least not without massive overhead costs. Also, I'm a bit of a speciesist.

Humans > Space Indians

I saw the movie twice. It was clear that the unobtainium was highly profitable, but at no point did I see anything that suggested it was necessary for human survival.

[Meoton]

Avatar as an allegory to the historical plight of Native Americans?
Or
Transformers 2 as an allegory to the current plight of monster truck driving, NRA card carrying, Redneck Americans.

Seems we have a tie for right/left indoctrination. Except one requires a bit more ignorance, stupidity, and depictions of giant metal robot balls (clack!) to accept. Though, it does seem to promote transforming monster truck/ giant robot sexuality. I'm sure those monster metal balls will be clacking in the dreams of many a conservative for quite some time. Makes me feel less guilty about finding a genitalia lacking blue female CGI alien mildly attractive.

[Mad hatters in jeans]

I might go to see it but trouble is my flatmate has already seen it this usually means:
I won't like the film. Often in the past things she likes i do not like at all.
She likes shiny things in films. I think they are nice to have as scenery but shouldn't control the main plot in any way.
What's even worse a sibling of mine has seen it and likes it, she's even worse for crappy plotlines and big visual budgets.

Also i can't be assed going out there, it's too icy. The other day i was carrying shopping home and nearly slipped on a number of occasions.
Maybe get it later or something. I have a different movie i want to see when it comes out. No prizes for guessing which.

[Meoton]

I might go to see it but trouble is my flatmate has already seen it this usually means:
I won't like the film. Often in the past things she likes i do not like at all.
She likes shiny things in films. I think they are nice to have as scenery but shouldn't control the main plot in any way.
What's even worse a sibling of mine has seen it and likes it, she's even worse for crappy plotlines and big visual budgets.

Also i can't be assed going out there, it's too icy. The other day i was carrying shopping home and nearly slipped on a number of occasions.
Maybe get it later or something. I have a different movie i want to see when it comes out. No prizes for guessing which.

The plot is simplistic and straight forward, but the movie is still very impressive.
Their planet has a resource that can't be synthesized and is immensely valuable. A corporation has sole mining rights. Government troops hired to protect corporate personnel and operations. Scientist hired to make diplomatic relations with natives. Corporate wants her to convince them to get out of the corporations way. She is more interested in studying them and their world. Ex-marine replaces deceased twin brother scientist in avatar program. Ex-marine crippled and can't afford to replace/fix legs. Corporation will pay for ex-marine's medical procedure if he plays ball and acts for their interests. That's the basic plot set up. It follows what one would expect after watching the previews. Not many surprises. Simple story told very well, in a stunning 3-D environment. It's kind of like the first time I saw the dinosaurs of Jurassic Park. An amazing world full of amazing creatures that look amazingly real.

[Slaytesics]

My rebuttal

A movie is meant to express you opinion, say what you need to say. If James Cameron had used Black antagonists instead of white antagonists then he would have taken a lot of bad wrap for the,Kanye West Walks up I am sorry to interrupt you Slaytesics,I am going to let you finish, but Adolf Hitler is the biggest racist of all time, all time!. As I was saying he would have taken bad wrap and no one would have seen the movie. BTW, most of the Na'Vi were African American and the Na'Vi won, saying that humanity is equal(kinda). Another argument, the white military guy is a total badass, I would have hated the movie without him.

[Playing In The Water]

Simple story told very well, in a stunning 3-D environment. It's kind of like the first time I saw the dinosaurs of Jurassic Park. An amazing world full of amazing creatures that look amazingly real.

Oh I absolutely loved the creatures, they were done just incredibly well! They put so much work into how they would all move - run, fly, climb, even behave - that it made them so much more believable, even if they were extraordinary.

It's all the little details that went into this movie that really made me fall in love with it, no lie.

[Meoton]

My rebuttal

A movie is meant to express you opinion, say what you need to say. If James Cameron had used Black antagonists instead of white antagonists then he would have taken a lot of bad wrap for the,Kanye West Walks up I am sorry to interrupt you Slaytesics,I am going to let you finish, but Adolf Hitler is the biggest racist of all time, all time!. As I was saying he would have taken bad wrap and no one would have seen the movie. BTW, most of the Na'Vi were African American and the Na'Vi won, saying that humanity is equal(kinda). Another argument, the white military guy is a total badass, I would have hated the movie without him.

So...a movie has to express an opinion? What was the opinion of Earnest Goes to Camp?
Umm? Not all the marines were white. The were human though. Maybe it means human suck? But the Na'Vi were helped by some of the humans. I guess that means not all humans suck? Maybe it means the military sucks? But the main character was a marine and so was the VTOL pilot that sided with the Na'Vi. And the Na'Vi had a hunter/warrior culture. Isn't that like a military in some way? Maybe it's about a more powerful and technologically advanced culture attempting to displace a less powerful and less advanced culture for economic benefit? No. That's never happened before, has it?

[North Avayu]

Simple story told very well, in a stunning 3-D environment. It's kind of like the first time I saw the dinosaurs of Jurassic Park. An amazing world full of amazing creatures that look amazingly real.

Oh I absolutely loved the creatures, they were done just incredibly well! They put so much work into how they would all move - run, fly, climb, even behave - that it made them so much more believable, even if they were extraordinary.

It's all the little details that went into this movie that really made me fall in love with it, no lie.

Yeah all those creatures were great. I can remember what I thought when I first saw them: "Hey, these animals are done well, they move really natural. But something is wrong, can't figure it out. Hmm ... Wait, what? This thing has six legs?" Even though they were completely unrealistic, they seemed realistic.

The story alone wouldn't be worth to watch the movie, but the story combined with the astonishing visuals makes it great entertainment. the message may lay a little bit heavy on top of it, but it didn't hinder my enjoyment.

[Playing In The Water]

Oh I absolutely loved the creatures, they were done just incredibly well! They put so much work into how they would all move - run, fly, climb, even behave - that it made them so much more believable, even if they were extraordinary.

It's all the little details that went into this movie that really made me fall in love with it, no lie.

Yeah all those creatures were great. I can remember what I thought when I first saw them: "Hey, these animals are done well, they move really natural. But something is wrong, can't figure it out. Hmm ... Wait, what? This thing has six legs?" Even though they were completely unrealistic, they seemed realistic.

The story alone wouldn't be worth to watch the movie, but the story combined with the astonishing visuals makes it great entertainment. the message may lay a little bit heavy on top of it, but it didn't hinder my enjoyment.

Haha, well, I personally would've watched the movie just for the storyline, myself, but that's cause I like these sorts of plots; guy meets girl, guy likes girl, guy and girl fall in love despite baggage. Don't go light on the predictability.

I mean that's just me, though, and I totally understand if people don't like the same sort.

They're just wrong, clearly~

But anyway! Yeah, I like the hexapedal design for all the animals, which has a proper explanation all in itself, too. Apparently, with the gravity being lower on Pandora, you don't get as much push with every step like you would on Earth. Plus, the atmosphere is thicker, so there's more resisting you with every step. It would be more useful to have additional legs to move yourself with, as you'd get more grip and more traction that way.

So neat!

[Kantria]

Or has it always been like that, but we are noticing this just now, because the modern age of global information exposes us to these phenomena worldwide?

I'm gonna go with this.

Sorry. I can't really think of anything to add.

[Callisdrun]

Oh I absolutely loved the creatures, they were done just incredibly well! They put so much work into how they would all move - run, fly, climb, even behave - that it made them so much more believable, even if they were extraordinary.

It's all the little details that went into this movie that really made me fall in love with it, no lie.

Yeah all those creatures were great. I can remember what I thought when I first saw them: "Hey, these animals are done well, they move really natural. But something is wrong, can't figure it out. Hmm ... Wait, what? This thing has six legs?" Even though they were completely unrealistic, they seemed realistic.

The story alone wouldn't be worth to watch the movie, but the story combined with the astonishing visuals makes it great entertainment. the message may lay a little bit heavy on top of it, but it didn't hinder my enjoyment.

Haha, well, I personally would've watched the movie just for the storyline, myself, but that's cause I like these sorts of plots; guy meets girl, guy likes girl, guy and girl fall in love despite baggage. Don't go light on the predictability.

I mean that's just me, though, and I totally understand if people don't like the same sort.

They're just wrong, clearly~

But anyway! Yeah, I like the hexapedal design for all the animals, which has a proper explanation all in itself, too. Apparently, with the gravity being lower on Pandora, you don't get as much push with every step like you would on Earth. Plus, the atmosphere is thicker, so there's more resisting you with every step. It would be more useful to have additional legs to move yourself with, as you'd get more grip and more traction that way.

So neat!

I really liked the way they did all the flora and fauna of Pandora as well.

As to the plot, it's an action adventure movie. Were people really expecting that much originality? There's nothing new under the sun. Most plots have been done before, or similar ones have been done. That doesn't mean some elements can't be used again. The point of movies is entertainment. I was entertained by Avatar, it was really fun for me to see, both times. Therefore, good.

[Flameswroth]

1) How powerful an indoctrination tool is cinema, actually? We have seen many examples, from the early propaganda films during WW2 and beyond, to the modern creations that earn the Oscars. Has the role of cinema as a tool for shaping public perceptions increased with the advance of technology and the globalisation of the media?

I think cinema can be an incredibly powerful tool for indoctrination. However, I think fictitious settings like that used in Avatar are far less effective to that end. It's much harder to try and convince people to think a certain way when the message is tempered with spacecraft and blue space beasts. That sort of setting engenders a much more specific set of sympathies. That is to say, you think that mining Pandora for Unobtainium at the cost of harming the indigenous population was wrong. That doesn't necessarily correlate to taking that stance in real life as compared to, say, a mockumentary like those that Michael Moore makes would. Propaganda films were more the latter than the former, with entertainment value being ancillary. And while even movies like Avatar might cause similar sentiments, it is far less prevalent, and much easier to disregard them in favor of the entertainment and effects.

2) Is this avoidable? Does the public have any way to protect itself from being indoctrinated by the ideas that are constantly pouring from the screen? And is this necessary at all? I mean...the art and media are part of social life, including politics. It is an open stage for presenting ideas and exposing the public to ideas. In this sense, should we try to resist this phenomenon, or we should embrace its effects, while still remaining capable of critical thinking?

I do not think it is avoidable. At its core, cinema is a way of conveying ideas from one person to another. Those ideas may be entertaining in nature, they may be indoctrinating in nature, and most are likely shades of in between. But I do think we should establish some resistance in our minds. By that I mean, our minds should be open like an office building is open. The doors are unlocked, but not held wide open all the time. There needs to be a foyer and closing doors to help us screen out the cold winds and dirt that could blow through our minds

3) Does art/cinema follow the current trends, or does it create them? Does the cinema establishment (producers, directors, writers) actually answer whatever preferences the mainstream public has at the moment, or just the opposite - they are like a powerful mind cabal that has its own agenda and is trying to shape the brains of the "sheeple"? If the former, then isn't this what free market is about (numbers sell)? If the latter, who/what are these working for?

Depends on the cinema type really. Obviously there are films that are designed to conform to a current trend in society (such as the Twilight movies). Then there are the independent films that consciously establish their own following, unique from the current trend, that influences it in a significant way (I'd cite Napoleon Dynamite as one of these).

4) What is the reason for the increased polarisation in society recently? People seem to react with much more extreme emotions to nearly everything, especially politics...and yes, also including art, and the cinema in particular. Just remember the Muhammad cartoons. Several Danish embassies in the Muslim world were besieged by angry crowds. Then, there is the movie "300", a clearly cartoonish one, but it was banned in Iran because it was perceived as offensive to the Persian/Iranian culture. There was also the movie "Borat", an apparent spoof, which however caused an angry reaction by the Kazakhs, who said it depicted them in a derogatory way. Even Brokeback Mountain caused outrage with its "apparent promotion of the gay agenda" and "mockery of the traditional American symbols". And now there is Avatar, a nice well thought and well executed high quality fiction 3D animation which again is stirring the passions. What is wrong with people? Or has it always been like that, but we are noticing this just now, because the modern age of global information exposes us to these phenomena worldwide?

I think, in a way, the Internet and its blogosphere or whatever the fuck they want to call it has given people the impression that having a strong, unique viewpoint is something to aim for. And it is, I guess. But they take it to extremes I think, becoming radical in the process. Not only that, but its the radicals that get the attention. People love attention! Who wants to read the news that talks about boring, center-of-the-road Jane going to the store for groceries? That's snorezville. So ironically, we've sort of latched onto the same premise that terrorists use -- loud and radical gives you a big voice, and people pay attention more.

As for going to see Avatar, I think not. I mean, if I lived near an iMAX, or even near a bigger screen I'd go see it. But I don't. We just have a 2-plex in town which, while actually being quite a nice theater, is not the venue for such a movie. And when, from what I can tell, the majority of a movie's allure is in the ability to view it large and in-depth...yeah, no good.

[Lysanders]

I am not really a conspiracy sort of guy, where there is some hidden concerted effort behind events and whatnot. I do, however, often see how patterns in behavior can cause unintentional effects that look quite planned. I see a lot of spontaneous order.

But when I think about just how powerful a major motion picture is in defining and directing culture, just how small and connected the group of people putting the capital together for them is, how geographically centralized and entrenched that capital and its owners are, and how undiscerning the public can be, I am rather disturbed by how easy it would be for major motion pictures (and media in general) could allow for a tiny minority to have very strong influence over the behavior of the public.

If we ever have a Brave New World style future, it will come about through just a natural progression of society where the producers of goods push materialism to its extreme with the media.