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What is the Best Form of Communism?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What is the best theory of communism?

Marxism
80
29%
Leninism
30
11%
Stalinism
25
9%
Maoism
8
3%
Gorbachevism
31
11%
Trotskyism
31
11%
Luxemburgism
40
14%
Titoism
31
11%
 
Total votes : 276

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Socialist Democratic Republics of Asia
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Postby Socialist Democratic Republics of Asia » Tue May 06, 2014 12:09 pm

The state talked about in the Manifesto of the Communist Party is a dictatorship of the proletariat, a revolutionary society in which the entirety of the industrial working class literally serves as the foundations of the state


I don't know what are you talking about but just above this post I have provided a quote from manifesto, it is quite explicit in saying that a highly centralized state will take place of capitalism. And no it doesn't says that transitionary phase will have "literally" entirely of proletarian serving in state beuracratic machinery or what else do you mean by foundations of the state? This is just utopian socialism and not marxism.

Because the workers are the state then the means of production are owned by them in such a system.


This makes no sense. Workers are not the state just as capitalist now are not literally state but state serves their interests only which conflicts with the interest of workers in dotp situation simply reverses.

The issue is whether such a society formed in the Soviet Union or other Leninist states, and the answer is an emphatic no.


So? Yes, USSR was not your "weired definition of state". But it was a workers state.

Power was rested solely in Party members and particularly in the politburo.


Which came from workers only and party (compromised of working class) got their input from various workers organizations only like trade unions or does someone really expect that every single day to day matter would be resolved by a nationwide vote. Of course it was a centralized system, a necessity to end the anarchy of production as prevalant in capitalist economy while repressing the class enemy.

And as if power is rested in every voting ctizen in capitalist democracies. :roll:

The common worker had less stake in the means of production than they do in a market capitalist society.


Opinion are opinions. Everyone got them.

The Soviet Union was not simply an example of capitalism, it was one of the highest forms of capitalism ever realized.


You don't understand capitalism or socialism then. highest form of capitalism? :rofl:

No, the collapse of the Soviet Union was the single greatest victory socialism has ever seen.


Given the pathetic state of Communist party all over the world since the collapse of USSR, you are objectively wrong.




Edit : Let me tell you something, as marxist have always said, State exist to opress and until their is state there will be oppression, make no mistake of it. But in the meantime state is too powerful a tool to let it pass and fall in the hand of class enemies, it must be retain by working class to crush and organize the proletarian state to move further along the transitionary phase.
Last edited by Socialist Democratic Republics of Asia on Tue May 06, 2014 12:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
“Freedom in capitalist society always remains about the same as it was in ancient Greek republics: Freedom for slave owners. : V.I. Lenin

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Threlizdun
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Postby Threlizdun » Tue May 06, 2014 1:23 pm

Socialist Democratic Republics of Asia wrote:
The state talked about in the Manifesto of the Communist Party is a dictatorship of the proletariat, a revolutionary society in which the entirety of the industrial working class literally serves as the foundations of the state


I don't know what are you talking about but just above this post I have provided a quote from manifesto, it is quite explicit in saying that a highly centralized state will take place of capitalism. And no it doesn't says that transitionary phase will have "literally" entirely of proletarian serving in state beuracratic machinery or what else do you mean by foundations of the state? This is just utopian socialism and not marxism.
What is described is a dictatorship of the proletariat. The proletariat class forms the foundation of the state in such a society like the capitalist does in states today. This state exists to remove remaining capitalist elements of society and to properly establish a communist society. If you cannot understand this then you desperately need to read more of Marx's works.

This makes no sense. Workers are not the state just as capitalist now are not literally state but state serves their interests only which conflicts with the interest of workers in dotp situation simply reverses.
It is the proletariat filling the role of the state. This is a society in which they truly rule.

So? Yes, USSR was not your "weired definition of state". But it was a workers state.
A worker's state that was quite keen on oppressing the workers.

Which came from workers only and party (compromised of working class) got their input from various workers organizations only like trade unions or does someone really expect that every single day to day matter would be resolved by a nationwide vote. Of course it was a centralized system, a necessity to end the anarchy of production as prevalant in capitalist economy while repressing the class enemy.
The Party hardly drew from the common worker and the soviets were only permitted to express sentiments in line with the Party.

And as if power is rested in every voting ctizen in capitalist democracies. :roll:
I never suggested it did. I don't know where you are getting the idea that I'm supporting a capitalist society.

Opinion are opinions. Everyone got them.
Concern for the worker's stake in the means of production is quite important unless you are going to abandon all attachments to Marxism.

You don't understand capitalism or socialism then. highest form of capitalism? :rofl:
A state officially founded to protect a capitalist market, their's. The capitalists were the state and the state was the capitalists. Market capitalism has integrated itself within the state excpetionally well, but they are not one in the same as they were in the Soviet Union.

Given the pathetic state of Communist party all over the world since the collapse of USSR, you are objectively wrong.
They were tied to the failed policies of the Soviet Union. The left needs to abandon all connections to them and move on to something that can work and genuinely benefits everyone.

Edit : Let me tell you something, as marxist have always said, State exist to opress and until their is state there will be oppression, make no mistake of it. But in the meantime state is too powerful a tool to let it pass and fall in the hand of class enemies, it must be retain by working class to crush and organize the proletarian state to move further along the transitionary phase.
Yes I am quite aware of the Marxist reliance on the state and the obsession with the "transitionary phase". They're among the many reasons I'm not a Marxist. The state is an inherently violent and oppressive institution. I don't see how strengthening an oppressive institution can lead to our liberation.
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Distruzio
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Postby Distruzio » Tue May 06, 2014 1:35 pm

I can't identify with any variation of it. They all deny individual sovereignty. They are each morally reprehensible.
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capitalism is not natural
secularism is not neutral
liberalism is not tolerant

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Bezombia
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Postby Bezombia » Tue May 06, 2014 1:43 pm

Distruzio wrote:I can't identify with any variation of it. They all deny individual sovereignty. They are each morally reprehensible.


Incorrect.
Our weary eyes still stray to the horizon...but down this road we've been so many times...
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Verdum wrote:Hey girl, is your name Karl Marx? Because your starting an uprising in my lower classes.
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Distruzio
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Postby Distruzio » Tue May 06, 2014 1:49 pm

Bezombia wrote:
Distruzio wrote:I can't identify with any variation of it. They all deny individual sovereignty. They are each morally reprehensible.


Incorrect.


Care to elaborate?
Eastern Orthodox Christian
Christ is King
Glorify Him

capitalism is not natural
secularism is not neutral
liberalism is not tolerant

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Bezombia
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Postby Bezombia » Tue May 06, 2014 1:49 pm

Distruzio wrote:
Bezombia wrote:
Incorrect.


Care to elaborate?


Well, it's wrong. Communism absolutely does honor individual sovereignty.
Our weary eyes still stray to the horizon...but down this road we've been so many times...
Please, call me Benomia. Post count +14623, founded Oct. 23, 2012.
Sauritican wrote:We've all been spending too much time with Ben
Verdum wrote:Hey girl, is your name Karl Marx? Because your starting an uprising in my lower classes.
Black Hand wrote:New plan is to just make thousands of disposable firearms and dump them out of cargo planes with tiny drag chutes attached.
Spreewerke wrote:The metric system is the only measurement system that truly meters.
Spreewerke wrote:Salt the women, rape the earth.
Equestican wrote:Ben is love, Ben is life.
Sediczja wrote:real eyes realize real lies
I'm a poet. Come read my poems!

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The Re-Frisivisiaing
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Founded: Apr 15, 2014
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Postby The Re-Frisivisiaing » Tue May 06, 2014 2:03 pm

LOLOLOL NONE CUZ THATS WUT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT LOLOL
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Neuereland
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Postby Neuereland » Tue May 06, 2014 3:13 pm

Even though Communism in all its forms is a complete and utter evil only followed by edgy teenagers, but I think the best of the worst is trotskyism.
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Bezombia
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Postby Bezombia » Tue May 06, 2014 3:15 pm

Neuereland wrote:Even though Communism in all its forms is a complete and utter evil only followed by edgy teenagers, but I think the best of the worst is trotskyism.


Fail.
Our weary eyes still stray to the horizon...but down this road we've been so many times...
Please, call me Benomia. Post count +14623, founded Oct. 23, 2012.
Sauritican wrote:We've all been spending too much time with Ben
Verdum wrote:Hey girl, is your name Karl Marx? Because your starting an uprising in my lower classes.
Black Hand wrote:New plan is to just make thousands of disposable firearms and dump them out of cargo planes with tiny drag chutes attached.
Spreewerke wrote:The metric system is the only measurement system that truly meters.
Spreewerke wrote:Salt the women, rape the earth.
Equestican wrote:Ben is love, Ben is life.
Sediczja wrote:real eyes realize real lies
I'm a poet. Come read my poems!

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Dejanic
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Postby Dejanic » Tue May 06, 2014 3:25 pm

Neuereland wrote:Even though Communism in all its forms is a complete and utter evil only followed by edgy teenagers, but I think the best of the worst is trotskyism.

Isn't the "edgy teenager" label more of a Libertarian/Anarcho Capitalist stereotype? The stereotype of Communists is that we are either old professors who wear v neck sweaters, or that we are Jewish bankers. You need to get with the program cappie. :rofl:
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Bezombia
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Postby Bezombia » Tue May 06, 2014 3:40 pm

Dejanic wrote:
Neuereland wrote:Even though Communism in all its forms is a complete and utter evil only followed by edgy teenagers, but I think the best of the worst is trotskyism.

Isn't the "edgy teenager" label more of a Libertarian/Anarcho Capitalist stereotype? The stereotype of Communists is that we are either old professors who wear v neck sweaters, or that we are Jewish bankers. You need to get with the program cappie. :rofl:


No you don't understand. Everyone that isn't a republican is an edgy teenager now.
Our weary eyes still stray to the horizon...but down this road we've been so many times...
Please, call me Benomia. Post count +14623, founded Oct. 23, 2012.
Sauritican wrote:We've all been spending too much time with Ben
Verdum wrote:Hey girl, is your name Karl Marx? Because your starting an uprising in my lower classes.
Black Hand wrote:New plan is to just make thousands of disposable firearms and dump them out of cargo planes with tiny drag chutes attached.
Spreewerke wrote:The metric system is the only measurement system that truly meters.
Spreewerke wrote:Salt the women, rape the earth.
Equestican wrote:Ben is love, Ben is life.
Sediczja wrote:real eyes realize real lies
I'm a poet. Come read my poems!

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Distruzio
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Postby Distruzio » Tue May 06, 2014 4:20 pm

Bezombia wrote:
Distruzio wrote:
Care to elaborate?


Well, it's wrong. Communism absolutely does honor individual sovereignty.


Denying the existence of private property is honoring individual sovereignty? If you don't acknowledge the existence of property then you deny the self sovereignty.
Eastern Orthodox Christian
Christ is King
Glorify Him

capitalism is not natural
secularism is not neutral
liberalism is not tolerant

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Pilotto
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Founded: Dec 06, 2013
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Postby Pilotto » Tue May 06, 2014 4:40 pm

Distruzio wrote:
Bezombia wrote:Well, it's wrong. Communism absolutely does honor individual sovereignty.

Denying the existence of private property is honoring individual sovereignty? If you don't acknowledge the existence of property then you deny the self sovereignty.

Well, if I build a house, you had better recognize it as my property.

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Bezombia
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Postby Bezombia » Tue May 06, 2014 4:41 pm

Distruzio wrote:
Bezombia wrote:
Well, it's wrong. Communism absolutely does honor individual sovereignty.


Denying the existence of private property is honoring individual sovereignty? If you don't acknowledge the existence of property then you deny the self sovereignty.


There's a big jump between "private property shouldn't exist" and "property is fake".
Personal property is respected in communism.
Our weary eyes still stray to the horizon...but down this road we've been so many times...
Please, call me Benomia. Post count +14623, founded Oct. 23, 2012.
Sauritican wrote:We've all been spending too much time with Ben
Verdum wrote:Hey girl, is your name Karl Marx? Because your starting an uprising in my lower classes.
Black Hand wrote:New plan is to just make thousands of disposable firearms and dump them out of cargo planes with tiny drag chutes attached.
Spreewerke wrote:The metric system is the only measurement system that truly meters.
Spreewerke wrote:Salt the women, rape the earth.
Equestican wrote:Ben is love, Ben is life.
Sediczja wrote:real eyes realize real lies
I'm a poet. Come read my poems!

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Cymbru
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Postby Cymbru » Tue May 06, 2014 4:56 pm

Ziegenhain wrote:The best form of Communism is when it has been destroyed and replaced with Freedom and Democracy


Who knew Ronald Reagan had a Nationstates account!

...or was still alive.

I voted Luxemburgism. However, as more of syndicalist myself, I find most forms of state communism impractical or distasteful.
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Distruzio
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Postby Distruzio » Tue May 06, 2014 5:00 pm

Bezombia wrote:
Distruzio wrote:
Denying the existence of private property is honoring individual sovereignty? If you don't acknowledge the existence of property then you deny the self sovereignty.


There's a big jump between "private property shouldn't exist" and "property is fake".
Personal property is respected in communism.


There is no difference. Property is property. Private property is the logical extension of personal property. In denying the validity of one, we might as well suggest that, because a man shouldn't rape, sex itself is immoral. Communists take the few examples of people using property to abuse others and use that observation as a foundation for saying that sex is immoral - that private property is wrong. They then extrapolate, from their delusion, the arbitrary distinction between "personal" and "private" property. There is no difference.

My head hurts quite often as I suffer from migraines. Should I, then, plead with a doctor to remove my brain so that I might eliminate the random unpleasantness that occurs from time to time? Or should I treat the issue at hand?
Eastern Orthodox Christian
Christ is King
Glorify Him

capitalism is not natural
secularism is not neutral
liberalism is not tolerant

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Bezombia
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Postby Bezombia » Tue May 06, 2014 5:20 pm

Distruzio wrote:
Bezombia wrote:
There's a big jump between "private property shouldn't exist" and "property is fake".
Personal property is respected in communism.


There is no difference. Property is property. Private property is the logical extension of personal property. In denying the validity of one, we might as well suggest that, because a man shouldn't rape, sex itself is immoral. Communists take the few examples of people using property to abuse others and use that observation as a foundation for saying that sex is immoral - that private property is wrong. They then extrapolate, from their delusion, the arbitrary distinction between "personal" and "private" property. There is no difference.

My head hurts quite often as I suffer from migraines. Should I, then, plead with a doctor to remove my brain so that I might eliminate the random unpleasantness that occurs from time to time? Or should I treat the issue at hand?


You are making an assumption and then basing your argument off of this assumption. Because the assumption made is wrong, I believe that's referred to as a strawman.

There absolutely is a difference in private and personal property. Personal property is something that you own that actually means something to you. Something that probably would be considered trash to someone else. A wedding ring, for example, or a photo of a deceased relative.

Private property is just something that you own that has monetary value on a market. Something that you could sell for money or other goods/services, and that would be equally (or close to equally) valuable to Generic Joe as to Example Erin. An example of this would be gold, a car, or property.

Because private property only exists as private property because of its monetary value, once the monetary system is done away with the only thing that could possibly class one person as culturally superior to another would be how much he owns. With private property abolished but personal property maintained, people can truly be classless without feeling like they're living in a prison cell.
Our weary eyes still stray to the horizon...but down this road we've been so many times...
Please, call me Benomia. Post count +14623, founded Oct. 23, 2012.
Sauritican wrote:We've all been spending too much time with Ben
Verdum wrote:Hey girl, is your name Karl Marx? Because your starting an uprising in my lower classes.
Black Hand wrote:New plan is to just make thousands of disposable firearms and dump them out of cargo planes with tiny drag chutes attached.
Spreewerke wrote:The metric system is the only measurement system that truly meters.
Spreewerke wrote:Salt the women, rape the earth.
Equestican wrote:Ben is love, Ben is life.
Sediczja wrote:real eyes realize real lies
I'm a poet. Come read my poems!

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Casita
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Postby Casita » Tue May 06, 2014 5:48 pm

Pilotto wrote:
Distruzio wrote:Denying the existence of private property is honoring individual sovereignty? If you don't acknowledge the existence of property then you deny the self sovereignty.

Well, if I build a house, you had better recognize it as my property.


Tell that to the state when you refuse to pay property tax. As a government official once told me, you can own a home, but the government owns the land.

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The USOT
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Postby The USOT » Tue May 06, 2014 7:39 pm

Distruzio wrote:
Bezombia wrote:
Well, it's wrong. Communism absolutely does honor individual sovereignty.


Denying the existence of private property is honoring individual sovereignty? If you don't acknowledge the existence of property then you deny the self sovereignty.

Its not a denial of private property but a different stance on what property is.
Historically property has not been a consistent concept through cultures and isn't the best thing to build rights off of. Note for instance that the idea of people not being able to be property is a very new idea in relation to property. If anything it was the concept of individual sovereignity overcoming what was then the nature of private property rather than the other way around.

In the same way communists just tend to recognise property in a different fashion.
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McCatson
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Postby McCatson » Wed May 07, 2014 2:07 am

The one that leaves us free-marketeers alone.
And maybe we weren't put on this Earth to rape and pillage and ravage...

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Bezombia
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Postby Bezombia » Wed May 07, 2014 3:14 am

McCatson wrote:The one that leaves us free-marketeers alone.

so edgy
Our weary eyes still stray to the horizon...but down this road we've been so many times...
Please, call me Benomia. Post count +14623, founded Oct. 23, 2012.
Sauritican wrote:We've all been spending too much time with Ben
Verdum wrote:Hey girl, is your name Karl Marx? Because your starting an uprising in my lower classes.
Black Hand wrote:New plan is to just make thousands of disposable firearms and dump them out of cargo planes with tiny drag chutes attached.
Spreewerke wrote:The metric system is the only measurement system that truly meters.
Spreewerke wrote:Salt the women, rape the earth.
Equestican wrote:Ben is love, Ben is life.
Sediczja wrote:real eyes realize real lies
I'm a poet. Come read my poems!

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Dejanic
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Postby Dejanic » Wed May 07, 2014 3:16 am

McCatson wrote:The one that leaves us free-marketeers alone.

Nope. Your markets will be taken. You will be assimilated.

Though I doubt many people would willingly submit themselves to your markets, you'd just have a group of hipsters who all want to play capitalist. :rofl:
Last edited by Dejanic on Wed May 07, 2014 3:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
Post-Post Leftist | Anarcho-Blairite | Pol Pot Sympathiser

Jesus was a Socialist | Satan is a Capitalist

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Generic committed leftist with the opinion that anyone even slightly to the right of him is Hitler.

Master Shake wrote:multicultural loving imbecile.

Quintium wrote:Have you even been alive at all, toddler anarcho-collectivist?

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Iy13n
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Founded: Apr 25, 2014
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Postby Iy13n » Wed May 07, 2014 11:18 am

Why isn't there spontaneous Communism?

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Bezombia
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Postby Bezombia » Wed May 07, 2014 11:23 am

Iy13n wrote:Why isn't there spontaneous Communism?


No.
Our weary eyes still stray to the horizon...but down this road we've been so many times...
Please, call me Benomia. Post count +14623, founded Oct. 23, 2012.
Sauritican wrote:We've all been spending too much time with Ben
Verdum wrote:Hey girl, is your name Karl Marx? Because your starting an uprising in my lower classes.
Black Hand wrote:New plan is to just make thousands of disposable firearms and dump them out of cargo planes with tiny drag chutes attached.
Spreewerke wrote:The metric system is the only measurement system that truly meters.
Spreewerke wrote:Salt the women, rape the earth.
Equestican wrote:Ben is love, Ben is life.
Sediczja wrote:real eyes realize real lies
I'm a poet. Come read my poems!

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Occupied Deutschland
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Postby Occupied Deutschland » Wed May 07, 2014 11:27 am

Dejanic wrote:
McCatson wrote:The one that leaves us free-marketeers alone.

Nope. Your markets will be taken. You will be assimilated.

Though I doubt many people would willingly submit themselves to your markets, you'd just have a group of hipsters who all want to play capitalist. :rofl:

"My economic system? You've probably never heard of it."
"My markets are so underground they're illegal."
"I'm only oppressing the proletariat and seizing the product of their labor because I'm doing it ironically."
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Last edited by Occupied Deutschland on Wed May 07, 2014 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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