NATION

PASSWORD

[PASSED] Liberate Utopia

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Unibotian WASC Mission
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[PASSED] Liberate Utopia

Postby Unibotian WASC Mission » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:33 pm

SECURITY COUNCIL

ImageLiberate Utopia
A resolution to strike down Delegate-imposed barriers to free entry in a region

Category: Liberation | Nominee: Utopia | Proposed by: Unibotian WASC Mission


The Security Council,

Deeply Disturbed by the actions of The Alliance of Dictators, an invading organization, which captured the delegacy of Utopia by surprise on 2 December 2009,

Recalling that Utopia is a historic region, which has greatly contributed to the world’s security with its involvement in the Allied Liberation League (a defending organization),

Defining
(a) “Password Grieving” as an invading technique, where an invader-in-disguise hides in a region long enough to accumulate a high level of regional influence, and then becomes delegate in the founderless region to immediately establish an invisible password, and begin emptying the region of those not affiliated with their invader organization,
(b) “Invisible Password” as a delegate-instituted password which is required to enter a region, if the password is hidden to any resident besides the regional delegate or founder,

Gravely Concerned that password grieving has spread as a common tactic used by invaders to defeat the timely stalemate between invaders and those who seek security, stability and peace in our world,

Having Ascertained that The Alliance of Dictators, and their delegate in Utopia, Lustrous Lemurs, have relied on password grieving to secure the delegacy of Utopia,

Cognizant of Acacallis and Ocean Pride, two residents of Utopia (at the time of this resolution’s creation), who the invader delegate has not yet been successful in ejecting and banning,

Bearing in Mind that these honorable residents have publicized their wishes for Utopia to be liberated,

Concurring with the residents of Utopia that the continued suppression of the region by The Alliance of Dictators could only have awful consequences for Utopia,

Convinced that ignoring them in their time of need would be being ungrateful to Utopia for its years of service to international peace and security,

Hereby:

1. Liberates Utopia, by removing the invisible password and barring the delegate from attempting to implement a password in the future.

Co-authored by Sedgistan



Okay here it goes, drafting time!
Last edited by Flibbleites on Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:46 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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A mean old man
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Postby A mean old man » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:41 pm

Nay, Acacallis and Ocean Pride were allowed to return. Possibly in response to the liberation attempt.
A: SC#16 - Repeal "Liberate The Security Council"
A: SC#26 - Commend The Joint Systems Alliance
A: SC#30 - Commend 10000 Islands
A: SC#37 - Condemn NAZI EUROPE
A: SC#38 - Repeal "Condemn NAZI EUROPE"
A: GA#149 - On Expiration Dates
C: SC#58 - Repeal "Commend Sedgistan"
A: SC#62 - Repeal "Condemn Swarmlandia"
C: SC#63 - Commend Ballotonia
A: SC#65 - Condemn Punk Reloaded
C: GA#163 - Repeal "Law of the Sea"
A: SC#72 - Repeal "Commend Mikeswill"
C: SC#74 - Condemn Lone Wolves United
C: SC#76 - Repeal "Condemn Thatcherton"
A: SC#81 - Repeal "Condemn Anthony Delasanta"
C: SC#83 - Condemn Automagfreek
C: SC#84 - Repeal "Liberate Islam"
C: SC#111 - Commend Krulltopia

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Sedgistan
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Postby Sedgistan » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:50 pm

A mean old man wrote:Nay, Acacallis and Ocean Pride were allowed to return. Possibly in response to the liberation attempt.


Say what? They just haven't been kicked out yet, as the invader delegate doesn't have the influence. See this on the RMB:
8 hours ago Lustrous Lemurs
Ocean Pride, I am the WA delegate now. Please endorse me if you want to stay. Only I can have endorsements.

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A mean old man
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Postby A mean old man » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:53 pm

Ah; I didn't notice that detail.
A: SC#16 - Repeal "Liberate The Security Council"
A: SC#26 - Commend The Joint Systems Alliance
A: SC#30 - Commend 10000 Islands
A: SC#37 - Condemn NAZI EUROPE
A: SC#38 - Repeal "Condemn NAZI EUROPE"
A: GA#149 - On Expiration Dates
C: SC#58 - Repeal "Commend Sedgistan"
A: SC#62 - Repeal "Condemn Swarmlandia"
C: SC#63 - Commend Ballotonia
A: SC#65 - Condemn Punk Reloaded
C: GA#163 - Repeal "Law of the Sea"
A: SC#72 - Repeal "Commend Mikeswill"
C: SC#74 - Condemn Lone Wolves United
C: SC#76 - Repeal "Condemn Thatcherton"
A: SC#81 - Repeal "Condemn Anthony Delasanta"
C: SC#83 - Condemn Automagfreek
C: SC#84 - Repeal "Liberate Islam"
C: SC#111 - Commend Krulltopia

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Martyrdoom
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Postby Martyrdoom » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:22 pm

With due respect, the proposal merely reads like a 'I don't like the legitimate use of passwords, especially against defending regions'.

And “Password Grieving” is not just an invading technique, 'defenders' make use of it in post-liberated regions, emptying the region of those not affiliated with their defender organisation.

Maybe the password is up to secure the re-founding of the region?! That's a valid reason so I've read.
Last edited by Martyrdoom on Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Maul-5
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Postby Maul-5 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:30 pm

Martyrdoom wrote:With due respect, the proposal merely reads like a 'I don't like the legitimate use of passwords, especially against defending regions'.

And “Password Grieving” is not just an invading technique, 'defenders' make use of it in post-liberated regions, emptying the region of those not affiliated with their defender organisation.

Maybe the password is up to secure the re-founding of the region?! That's a valid reason so I've read.


As they are from The Alliance of Dictators and Utopia is a democratic region, it seems highly unlikely that this will be the reason. Unless the Alliance of Dictators is seeking a quite sizeable scalp by taking the foundership of the region but this could take weeks and this proposal could be at vote much quicker.

That being said the whole password system is a failure of a system because it is designed to stop invasions from those who want to opt-out but this doesn't seem to be the case of its sole use.

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Martyrdoom
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Postby Martyrdoom » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:05 pm

Maul-5 wrote:
Martyrdoom wrote:With due respect, the proposal merely reads like a 'I don't like the legitimate use of passwords, especially against defending regions'.

And “Password Grieving” is not just an invading technique, 'defenders' make use of it in post-liberated regions, emptying the region of those not affiliated with their defender organisation.

Maybe the password is up to secure the re-founding of the region?! That's a valid reason so I've read.


As they are from The Alliance of Dictators and Utopia is a democratic region, it seems highly unlikely that this will be the reason. Unless the Alliance of Dictators is seeking a quite sizeable scalp by taking the foundership of the region but this could take weeks and this proposal could be at vote much quicker.

That being said the whole password system is a failure of a system because it is designed to stop invasions from those who want to opt-out but this doesn't seem to be the case of its sole use.


Thanks to liberations I would add.

Prior to that, if you didn't want to get invaded in a founderless region, delegates - before their powers were curtailed - could just install a password and/or help refound. Yes, you would be trading off against regional-growth/activity, but that would be having your cake and eating it and hence not 'gameplay'. Moreover, and because of this very dichotomy, it was an incentive to actually 'go all the way' and refound. The only thing liberations have allowed is imperialism - and password griefing - by defenders, as only they have the 'moral compass' necessary so the votes they elicit can fall into place. Hopefully time will rectify that. Oh when invaders invaded instead of defending against those 'defenders' who now seek to invade!
Last edited by Martyrdoom on Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sedgistan
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Postby Sedgistan » Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:47 pm

Martyrdoom wrote:With due respect, the proposal merely reads like a 'I don't like the legitimate use of passwords, especially against defending regions'.


The proposal isn't questioning the legitimacy of those passwords, its questioning the morality. Yes, I know, no morality in the game code etc. etc., but that doesn't stop the players from having some.

And “Password Grieving” is not just an invading technique, 'defenders' make use of it in post-liberated regions, emptying the region of those not affiliated with their defender organisation.


In order to re-found, so they don't get targeted by invaders again.

Maybe the password is up to secure the re-founding of the region?! That's a valid reason so I've read.


When its done by the natives, yes. Not when its done by invaders.

Martyrdoom wrote:
Maul-5 wrote:
Martyrdoom wrote:That being said the whole password system is a failure of a system because it is designed to stop invasions from those who want to opt-out but this doesn't seem to be the case of its sole use.


Thanks to liberations I would add.


Actually, liberations are more the solution to the problem. Those who don't want to be invaded can still password their region, and they'll be safe. Those invaders who use hidden passwords to try and create a 'game over' scenario, allowing them to grief the region they've invaded, find they can't do that any more.

Prior to that, if you didn't want to get invaded in a founderless region, delegates - before their powers were curtailed - could just install a password and/or help refound. Yes, you would be trading off against regional-growth/activity, but that would be having your cake and eating it and hence not 'gameplay'. Moreover, and because of this very dichotomy, it was an incentive to actually 'go all the way' and refound. The only thing liberations have allowed is imperialism - and password griefing - by defenders, as only they have the 'moral compass' necessary so the votes they elicit can fall into place. Hopefully time will rectify that. Oh when invaders invaded instead of defending against those 'defenders' who now seek to invade!


Examples of this imperialism & password grieding by defenders, please?

I do apologise for having to churn out the same arguments in every thread for a liberation resolution, but if you'll always make the same arguments against them, I don't really have much of an option...
Last edited by Sedgistan on Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Unibot » Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:17 pm

Martyrdoom wrote:With due respect, the proposal merely reads like a 'I don't like the legitimate use of passwords, especially against defending regions'.

And “Password Grieving” is not just an invading technique, 'defenders' make use of it in post-liberated regions, emptying the region of those not affiliated with their defender organisation.

Maybe the password is up to secure the re-founding of the region?! That's a valid reason so I've read.


With all due respect, your reply not only comes off as being dripped in invader biasness -- but it also makes me wonder what sort of cool-aid they're handing out to invaders these days, 'cause I want some of it, must be some strong shit.

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Martyrdoom
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Postby Martyrdoom » Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:23 pm

Sedgistan wrote:The proposal isn't questioning the legitimacy of those passwords, its questioning the morality. Yes, I know, no morality in the game code etc. etc., but that doesn't stop the players from having some.


As far as I'm concerned "Deeply Disturbed by the actions of The Alliance of Dictators, an invading organization, which captured the delegacy of Utopia by surprise on 2 December 2009" reads 'deeply disturbed by invaders doing what they do.'

In order to re-found, so they don't get targeted by invaders again.


When its done by the natives, yes. Not when its done by invaders.


Good, as long as there's no double standard then.

Actually, liberations are more the solution to the problem. Those who don't want to be invaded can still password their region, and they'll be safe. Those invaders who use hidden passwords to try and create a 'game over' scenario, allowing them to grief the region they've invaded, find they can't do that any more.


Examples of this imperialism & password grieding by defenders, please?


Their safety or otherwise is now dependent on a vote and the consent of the WA whereas before it was inviolable. They won't be safe, they could be safe.

'Invaders who use hidden passwords to try and create a 'game over' scenario, allowing them to grief the region they've invaded, find they can't do that anymore' you say? You wanted examples, the most recent - Feudal Japan. Griefed, oh wait, password-griefed that is, at one point by your good self to boot.

I do apologise for having to churn out the same arguments in every thread for a liberation resolution, but if you'll always make the same arguments against them, I don't really have much of an option...


Na, don't worry about it: I like reading the justfications for doing the very things which you admonish and reject so much, 'cos I'm a defender' etc. Pull the other one. You are the future raider. The one that does not exist officially but which continues in other ways. When they are not natives, they will be 'defenders'.
Last edited by Martyrdoom on Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Reseda Island
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Postby Reseda Island » Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:31 pm

yes you should liberate Utopia, I was gonna have a puppet of mine just live there then it got invaded
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Sedgistan
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Postby Sedgistan » Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:37 pm

Martyrdoom wrote:As far as I'm concerned "Deeply Disturbed by the actions of The Alliance of Dictators, an invading organization, which captured the delegacy of Utopia by surprise on 2 December 2009" reads 'deeply disturbed by invaders doing what they do.'


Most people find raiding disturbing - particularly when its done in this manner, with the region passworded 2 hours after the invasion. The resolution doesn't call for a ban on raiding, just says its not comfortable with what was done.


Their safety or otherwise is now dependent on a vote and the consent of the WA whereas before it was inviolable. They won't be safe, they could be safe.


Well the WA assuring their safety is better than raiders ensuring they have none, surely?

'Invaders who use hidden passwords to try and create a 'game over' scenario, allowing them to grief the region they've invaded, find they can't do that anymore' you say? You wanted examples, the most recent - Feudal Japan. Griefed, oh wait, password-griefed that is, at one point by your good self to boot.


Actually, no. I didn't kick out any natives, and the region was passworded the delegacy was switched to a native.

Na, don't worry about it: I like reading the justfications for doing the very things which you admonish and reject so much, 'cos I'm a defender' etc. Pull the other one. You are the future raider. The one that does not exist officially but which continues in other ways. When they are not natives, they will be 'defenders'.


Future raider? I guess we'll have to wait and see, since thats a claim you cannot claim to have any proof for. Your mistake is thinking that because defenders use similar game mechanics to raiders, they are the same as raiders. What matters is the motivation - defenders defend to allow natives to own, and rule their regions in the way they want. Invaders like you and The Alliance of Dictators destroy regions & communities, and get some peverse pleasure out of it.
Last edited by Sedgistan on Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Martyrdoom
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Postby Martyrdoom » Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:38 pm

Unibot wrote:
Martyrdoom wrote:With due respect, the proposal merely reads like a 'I don't like the legitimate use of passwords, especially against defending regions'.

And “Password Grieving” is not just an invading technique, 'defenders' make use of it in post-liberated regions, emptying the region of those not affiliated with their defender organisation.

Maybe the password is up to secure the re-founding of the region?! That's a valid reason so I've read.


With all due respect, your reply not only comes off as being dripped in invader biasness -- but it also makes me wonder what sort of cool-aid they're handing out to invaders these days, 'cause I want some of it, must be some strong shit.


:rofl: I'm not actually an 'invader' now I'm afraid, I actually defend. But, Jim Jones would deffo have been an invader.
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Unibot
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Postby Unibot » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:02 pm

Martyrdoom wrote:
Unibot wrote:
Martyrdoom wrote:With due respect, the proposal merely reads like a 'I don't like the legitimate use of passwords, especially against defending regions'.

And “Password Grieving” is not just an invading technique, 'defenders' make use of it in post-liberated regions, emptying the region of those not affiliated with their defender organisation.

Maybe the password is up to secure the re-founding of the region?! That's a valid reason so I've read.


With all due respect, your reply not only comes off as being dripped in invader biasness -- but it also makes me wonder what sort of cool-aid they're handing out to invaders these days, 'cause I want some of it, must be some strong shit.


:rofl: I'm not actually an 'invader' now I'm afraid, I actually defend. But, Jim Jones would deffo have been an invader.


You fooled me. Bravo. ;)

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Martyrdoom
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Postby Martyrdoom » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:02 pm

Sedgistan wrote:Most people find raiding disturbing - particularly when its done in this manner, with the region passworded 2 hours after the invasion. The resolution doesn't call for a ban on raiding, just says its not comfortable with what was done.

What I find disturbing is that the very password that is being lined-up for removal could have secured the region from invasion in the first place, if utilised by the region's residents.

Well the WA assuring their safety is better than raiders ensuring they have none, surely?

Eh? Resident Delegate A puts up password, stops a potential invader delegate from doing it. The WA assures nothing for no one: unless there's a resolute voting bloc someones not telling me about?!

Actually, no. I didn't kick out any natives, and the region was passworded the delegacy was switched to a native.

Yet I'm afraid you did kick native nations out of Feudal Japan from behind a password: those nations were in the region, therefore they were native to it. Just because one might think they are 'invaders' does not necessarily make it so.

Future raider? I guess we'll have to wait and see, since thats a claim you cannot claim to have any proof for. Your mistake is thinking that because defenders use similar game mechanics to raiders, they are the same as raiders. What matters is the motivation - defenders defend to allow natives to own, and rule their regions in the way they want. Invaders like you and The Alliance of Dictators destroy regions & communities, and get some peverse pleasure out of it.

We will most definitely have to wait and see! Motivation is indeed the thing that seems to matter but that is dependent on infering what someone's motivation may be if it's not explicit. As for proof, watch this space. And hey Sedge, don't lump me in with what you think AoD do: I create regions and communities by refounding them. As I've said, I'm not fan of the nuclear lockdown (less regions and communities to reinvigorate).

On the contrary, you must get some peverse pleasure out of defending then!
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Unibot
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Postby Unibot » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:05 pm

To clarify, Mr. Totally-Not-An-Invader...

And “Password Grieving” is not just an invading technique, 'defenders' make use of it in post-liberated regions, emptying the region of those not affiliated with their defender organisation.


Not according to the definition given in the proposal. :mad:

Maybe the password is up to secure the re-founding of the region?! That's a valid reason so I've read.


Refounding for the invader group? Isn't that worse?

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Sedgistan
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Postby Sedgistan » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:09 pm

Martyrdoom wrote:What I find disturbing is that the very password that is being lined-up for removal could have secured the region from invasion in the first place, if utilised by the region's residents.


Indeed, but that doesn't justify someone else invading & passwording the region.

Eh? Resident Delegate A puts up password, stops a potential invader delegate from doing it. The WA assures nothing for no one: unless there's a resolute voting bloc someones not telling me about?!


Yes, they would've been safest if they'd put up a password themselves. My point is that having a liberation resolution passed is safer than the status quo (password imposed by griefers).

Yet I'm afraid you did kick native nations out of Feudal Japan from behind a password: those nations were in the region, therefore they were native to it. Just because one might think they are 'invaders' does not necessarily make it so.


The commonly accepted definition of native is the one which was used before influence was introduced. You're one of the few people who don't accept the definition of that term - you mistakenly believe that being in a region automatically makes you a native of that region.

We will most definitely have to wait and see! Motivation is indeed the thing that seems to matter but that is dependent on infering what someone's motivation may be if it's not explicit. As for proof, watch this space. And hey Sedge, don't lump me in with what you think AoD do: I create regions and communities by refounding them. As I've said, I'm not fan of the nuclear lockdown (less regions and communities to reinvigorate).


I've never seen any of the regions you griefed return as thriving communities. On the contrary, the regions I've defended (such as Feudal Japan) are now better off than they were under invader occupation.

On the contrary, you must get some peverse pleasure out of defending then!


There's nothing peverse about enjoying helping people.

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Martyrdoom
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Postby Martyrdoom » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:13 pm

Unibot wrote:To clarify, Mr. Totally-Not-An-Invader...

And “Password Grieving” is not just an invading technique, 'defenders' make use of it in post-liberated regions, emptying the region of those not affiliated with their defender organisation.


Not according to the definition given in the proposal. :mad:

Maybe the password is up to secure the re-founding of the region?! That's a valid reason so I've read.


Refounding for the invader group? Isn't that worse?


Just to clarify again, I'm also a native in the region of Westminster.

No, its totally ok as long as the invading group consists of 'defenders' and formers natives, aka Feudal Japan.
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Martyrdoom
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Postby Martyrdoom » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:25 pm

Sedgistan wrote:Indeed, but that doesn't justify someone else invading & passwording the region.

No, but it sure as hell gives them the opportunity they need: 'use it or lose' etc.

The commonly accepted definition of native is the one which was used before influence was introduced. You're one of the few people who don't accept the definition of that term - you mistakenly believe that being in a region automatically makes you a native of that region.

Haha, in that case you mistakenly believe that being in a region doesn't automatically make you a native of that region: just because somethings 'commonly accepted' does not make it correct. I say it's high-time, given that influence has been a feature for a while, that 'native' was reflected in the literal sense i.e. a nation currently within a region is native to it. How can you not be native to a region in which you currently reside? What is this insanity?!

I've never seen any of the regions you griefed return as thriving communities. On the contrary, the regions I've defended (such as Feudal Japan) are now better off than they were under invader occupation.

Your definition of 'thriving' is only different to ours. Plus, to be fair, we have to contend with invaders like you: so we have installed passwords on those regions to PREVENT them being usurped, it's only prudent.

There's nothing peverse about enjoying helping people.

Nietschze rang and begs to differ.
Last edited by Martyrdoom on Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Unibotian WASC Mission
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Postby Unibotian WASC Mission » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:27 pm

No, its totally ok as long as the invading group consists of 'defenders' and formers natives, aka Feudal Japan.


I didn't say it was better, but I'm not writing a proposal, or a definition that concerns password grieving by a defender organization, so you'll to think of something else to call defender password grieving, like fendapasswordingTM, Chicken Noddle Soup or Password XGrieving with a silent X, I don't really care, but that is not a subject that my proposal is covering.

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Unibotian WASC Mission
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Postby Unibotian WASC Mission » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:29 pm

Nietschze rang and begs to differ.


Nietzsche also wouldn't have supported the lack of freedom in Utopia, "endorse me or else..", and Nietzsche really only was suggesting we shouldn't feel obligated to be nice or helpful to people, or else we'll be taken advantage of, and he hints as to why it feels good to do certain deeds in "Beyond Good and Evil".
Last edited by Unibotian WASC Mission on Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Martyrdoom
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Postby Martyrdoom » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:33 pm

Unibotian WASC Mission wrote:
No, its totally ok as long as the invading group consists of 'defenders' and formers natives, aka Feudal Japan.


I didn't say it was better, but I'm not writing a proposal, or a definition that concerns password grieving by a defender organization, so you'll to think of something else to call defender password grieving, like fendapasswordingTM, Chicken Noddle Soup or Password XGrieving with a silent X, I don't really care, but that is not a subject that my proposal is covering.


Soz boss. Hmm, I think I'll call it 'password-griefing' then.
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Unibotian WASC Mission
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Postby Unibotian WASC Mission » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:42 pm

Sounds fine to me. Now go find a proposal to use it in. I beseech you! :lol:

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Martyrdoom
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Postby Martyrdoom » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:48 pm

Unibotian WASC Mission wrote:
Nietschze rang and begs to differ.


Nietzsche also wouldn't have supported the lack of freedom in Utopia, "endorse me or else..", and Nietzsche really only was suggesting we shouldn't feel obligated to be nice or helpful to people, or else we'll be taken advantage of, and he hints as to why it feels good to do certain deeds in "Beyond Good and Evil".


Hahaha, Nietzche might not have licked my balls either! Nevertheless, don't you see somewhat similar declarations in the WFE's of some feeder/larger regions saying 'don't go beyond so and so' in terms of one's endo count?!

He goes beyond hinting in 'Human, All Too Human'.
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Unibotian WASC Mission
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Postby Unibotian WASC Mission » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:50 pm

He goes beyond hinting in 'Human, All Too Human'.


He goes beyond sanity in that one, if I remember correctly.

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