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The United States needs to increase its budget deficit!

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Preferably, the budget deficit in the US should...

Increase
29
17%
Stay the Same
4
2%
Decrease
27
15%
Be Eliminated (Balanced Budget)
43
25%
Be More than Eliminated (Budget Surplus)
72
41%
 
Total votes : 175

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Post-Keynesian Economics
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The United States needs to increase its budget deficit!

Postby Post-Keynesian Economics » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:08 pm

The latest jobs report just came out recently, and while many have exclaimed that it has shown that the shutdown didn't destroy the economy, the bigger lesson here is that unemployment is still stagnant at a not so awesome level.

Interesting enough, these facts on unemployment contrast with something else that has recently happened.

Spending exceeded receipts by $680.3 billion in the 12 months ended Sept. 30, the narrowest gap since 2008, compared with a $1.09 trillion shortfall in fiscal 2012, the Treasury Department said today in Washington. In September, the U.S. recorded a $75.1 billion surplus, little changed from the surplus in the same month a year earlier.


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-30/budget-deficit-in-u-s-narrows-to-5-year-low-on-record-revenue.html

So, the deficit is low(er). But is this a good thing? I would certainly say no. But I'll be interested to hear opposing arguments. But let me first present my case with the help of some of my favorite economists.

First of all, it is important to remember that a government deficit means more money in our pockets. Or at the very least, a government deficit means more money in the private sector.

What the above means is this: government deficits create private sector wealth, while government surpluses drain it. There is no trickery here. When the federal government spends in deficit, it does so by putting financial assets, usually in the form of Treasury bills, in the hands of the public; when it spends in surplus, the net quantity of Treasury bills held by the public declines.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntharvey/

In addition, empirical evidence and other countries have proven that a deficit can be a good thing.

They thought all kinds of bad things about the deficit. And then, after the 2011 debt ceiling debacle and the formal downgrading of the credit rating of the United States, they were all proven utterly wrong. Immediately after the U.S. was downgraded, interest rates unexpectedly went down! They did not go up as universally feared. The U.S. government was not cut off from spending; was not down on its knees before the IMF begging for funding; and it was not the next Greece.

And the likes of Alan Greenspan and Warren Buffet immediately explained exactly why -- we "print" our own money. Just like Japan and the UK, for example, who also never face funding issues no matter how large their deficits may be, we always have the ability to make any size payment in our own currency -- U.S. dollars. The U.S. government is not like the Greek government that is not the issuer of the euro, and is not like California that is not the issuer of the U.S. dollar. So we can't be the next Greece or the next California, because the U.S. government is never dependent on borrowing or taxing to be able to spend. As the issuer of the dollar, that notion is entirely inapplicable. Yes, too much net spending might cause inflation, but there is never a solvency risk for the issuer of a currency.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/warren-mosler/fiscal-cliff-debt_b_2114140.html

But don't worry, I know what many of you will jump to - inflation! And you have a legitimate concern, inflation can indeed be a serious issue. That's why if inflation gets too high, we should start reducing spending. But right now, inflation is actually below its target. Compared to the rest of the world, our inflation levels are incredibly healthy. Just look at Europe, where low inflation is actually damaging the ability of private individuals to pay off debt.

But in any case, even if you disagree with everything I just said in the paragraph above, deficit spending likely won't increase inflation anyway.

This article explains why through simple algebra: http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntharvey/2011/05/14/money-growth-does-not-cause-inflation/

Fiscal responsibility is one of the most dangerous ideas in economic history. So let's increase the deficit. Let's reverse the effects of the sequester, let's give cash to state governments, and let's cut taxes - on corporations, on the middle class, and on any of the poor that pay taxes.
"Will capitalist economies operate at full employment in the absence of routine intervention? Certainly not. Are deviations from full employment a social problem? Obviously." - Janet Yellen

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Regnum Dominae
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Postby Regnum Dominae » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:12 pm

Ideally the deficit should decrease. But that shouldn't be our biggest concern. As long as debt growth is slower than GDP growth, debt is not a problem.

I don't see why anyone would want a larger debt/deficit though.
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Postby Post-Keynesian Economics » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:18 pm

Regnum Dominae wrote:Ideally the deficit should decrease. But that shouldn't be our biggest concern. As long as debt growth is slower than GDP growth, debt is not a problem.

I don't see why anyone would want a larger debt/deficit though.


Well, if you read my post, then you'll understand why I want a larger budget deficit. A larger budget deficit means larger private sector savings. More savings for you and I. I would rather have that money be in the private sector than in the public sector. Who is the money helping if it is sitting in the government as a number on a spreadsheet?
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Postby The Tundra » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:21 pm

we need to get rid of the debt ceiling, and if Congress budgets more than we make in taxes, it implicitly approves of the borrowing needed to meet the budget.

but generally, debt is completely irrelevant, the promise of paying back that money is just as good as actually paying it back. stability is what gives our currency value.
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Postby Post-Keynesian Economics » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:24 pm

The Tundra wrote:we need to get rid of the debt ceiling, and if Congress budgets more than we make in taxes, it implicitly approves of the borrowing needed to meet the budget.

but generally, debt is completely irrelevant, the promise of paying back that money is just as good as actually paying it back. stability is what gives our currency value.


I would go a step farther. First of all, there is little wrong with borrowing money. Second of all, the other option is to simply print more money. Seeing as we don't have enough currency circulating in the country right now, we should definitely be printing more money.
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Postby Yue-Laou » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:31 pm

More concerned about germany. Their idiotic policy of running huge surpluses and focusing heavily on exporting is harming europe and the rest of the world. Wanted to open a thread about it but I'm too lazy.
Last edited by Yue-Laou on Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Post-Keynesian Economics » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:33 pm

Yue-Laou wrote:More concerned about germany. Their idiotic policy of running huge surpluses and focusing heavily on exporting is harming europe and the rest of the world. Wanted to open a thread about it but I'm too lazy.
Last edited by Post-Keynesian Economics on Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Vetalia » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:35 pm

Post-Keynesian Economics wrote:I would go a step farther. First of all, there is little wrong with borrowing money. Second of all, the other option is to simply print more money. Seeing as we don't have enough currency circulating in the country right now, we should definitely be printing more money.


Currency is quite plentiful in the US right now. The bigger issue is the huge buildup of reserves held by banks at the Fed; they create money via QE and it just ends up stashed at the Fed rather than lent out...or perhaps more dangerously invested in stocks and other risk assets. We've got a hell of an asset bubble brewing that makes the previous ones look like child's play.
Last edited by Vetalia on Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Tundra
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Postby The Tundra » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:36 pm

Post-Keynesian Economics wrote:
The Tundra wrote:we need to get rid of the debt ceiling, and if Congress budgets more than we make in taxes, it implicitly approves of the borrowing needed to meet the budget.

but generally, debt is completely irrelevant, the promise of paying back that money is just as good as actually paying it back. stability is what gives our currency value.


I would go a step farther. First of all, there is little wrong with borrowing money. Second of all, the other option is to simply print more money. Seeing as we don't have enough currency circulating in the country right now, we should definitely be printing more money.

we really shouldn't

printing more money will cause inflation. devaluing our currency now would be a very bad idea, considering our credit rating is sub par (AA, compared to AAA). right now, two large boosts to the economy right now would be a gradual raise in minimum wage (to 10 dollars over the next 5 years) and a complete discontinuation of the penny (pennies have little to no buying power, and costs 1.7 cents to mint 1 penny). bringing up the minimum wage will have the poor to middle working class be able to have more spending power, thus they will buy more consumer good, and propel the economy forward in the longrun. discontinuing the penny will also cut down on our dedicate, decrease the time of transactions, and bring down the demand of copper, which now can be put to better use as electrical wiring.

we have plenty of money, its just stuck in the pockets of the wealthy who literally can't/won't spend it all.
I suffer from many communicative disorders with the written word do to brain damage sustained during surgery, i apologies for appalling grammar and spelling.
Conservative Conservationists wrote:Too many puns and bad media lines
Must... Stop.... Self....

Stuff it

Despite anal probe, no crack found by police
Anal probe was shitty
Implements inserted for a crap reason
Man seeking a rears for police brutality
Man sues asses for penetrating his own
Police demand to spread went too far
Long arm of law goes inside
Lesson: Only stick it up there with permission.


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Postby Nervium » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:37 pm

Instead of cutting taxes, rather shift them, upwards, so that the rich and privileged finally start paying for their privileges.
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Postby Towson » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:39 pm

Eliminate the deficit,Duh.
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Postby Vetalia » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:40 pm

Post-Keynesian Economics wrote:I completely agree. Exporting isn't getting them anything actually beneficial.


Well, it is, a ton of jobs and economic growth. Problem is, the shit hits the fan when there's nobody left to buy their exports.
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Postby Fascist Russian Empire » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:42 pm

How the fuck is a high deficit a good thing?

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Postby Post-Keynesian Economics » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:47 pm

The Tundra wrote:
Post-Keynesian Economics wrote:
I would go a step farther. First of all, there is little wrong with borrowing money. Second of all, the other option is to simply print more money. Seeing as we don't have enough currency circulating in the country right now, we should definitely be printing more money.

we really shouldn't

printing more money will cause inflation. devaluing our currency now would be a very bad idea, considering our credit rating is sub par (AA, compared to AAA). right now, two large boosts to the economy right now would be a gradual raise in minimum wage (to 10 dollars over the next 5 years) and a complete discontinuation of the penny (pennies have little to no buying power, and costs 1.7 cents to mint 1 penny). bringing up the minimum wage will have the poor to middle working class be able to have more spending power, thus they will buy more consumer good, and propel the economy forward in the longrun. discontinuing the penny will also cut down on our dedicate, decrease the time of transactions, and bring down the demand of copper, which now can be put to better use as electrical wiring.

we have plenty of money, its just stuck in the pockets of the wealthy who literally can't/won't spend it all.


Your entire response rests on a dramatic assumption you make at the very beginning. You say "printing more money will cause inflation." But it really won't. I agree that a lot of money is stuck in places where it won't be spent. But that's why we should print more money and spend or cut taxes in ways that we get it to the poor and middle class.

But more importantly, let's address your claim that "printing more money will cause inflation."

I want you to meet Bob and Joe. They are the only two people in this limited economic system, and they go to the one store in this economic system, Mini-Mart. They each have $2 allocated that they can spend on milk.

There are four dollars total in the system.

Thus, Mini-Mart will charge $2 for milk. Now, inflation would occur if we printed two more dollars and thus now Bob and Joe can bring $3 each to Mini-Mart. Mini-Mart will charge $3 for milk, and inflation will occur while there are six dollars total in the system.

But, let's say INSTEAD two dollars get printed and then given to Fred, who previously could not afford milk. Now, there are again six dollars in the system. Bob, Joe, and Fred each have $2. Mini-Mart will charge $2. There is more money in the system, but prices will not go up.

The end lesson of this tale is that if GDP is not at a potential maximum, and unemployment is not at a potential minimum, then monetary growth will go towards the empty gaps, NOT an increase in prices.

Monetary growth does not necessaarily increase inflation. It certainly hasn't in this country thus far. See the article at the end of my OP.
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Postby Post-Keynesian Economics » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:48 pm

Nervium wrote:Instead of cutting taxes, rather shift them, upwards, so that the rich and privileged finally start paying for their privileges.


Or we could simply cut taxes and have more money in the private sector rather than the public sector.
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Postby Post-Keynesian Economics » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:49 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Post-Keynesian Economics wrote:I completely agree. Exporting isn't getting them anything actually beneficial.


Well, it is, a ton of jobs and economic growth. Problem is, the shit hits the fan when there's nobody left to buy their exports.


Once again, I mainly agree with you here, but could you elaborate on why specifically you believe these exports are getting jobs in Germany?

EDIT: Nevermind, I understand. You're talking about an increase in demand rather than the exports themselves. My apologies.
Last edited by Post-Keynesian Economics on Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Post-Keynesian Economics » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:50 pm

Towson wrote:Eliminate the deficit,Duh.


Why?
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Postby Post-Keynesian Economics » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:50 pm

Fascist Russian Empire wrote:How the fuck is a high deficit a good thing?


Because actually read the OP.
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Postby Vetalia » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:52 pm

Post-Keynesian Economics wrote:Once again, I mainly agree with you here, but could you elaborate on why specifically you believe these exports are getting jobs in Germany?


When they are exporting goods, the demand for German exports will produce demand for jobs in Germany; the companies' factories are concentrated in Germany so any increase in demand will result in more jobs for German workers. This of course is evidenced by the massive drop in unemployment which has fallen from 11% in 2005 to only 5.3% as of 2013.
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Postby Ashmoria » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:52 pm

you are so right

we need to increase spending and increase jobs.

i dont have strong enough words to say how wrong it is that we have abandoned the 20-somethings to fiscal disaster. how are they going to succeed in the world if they cant get a job for a freaking decade. it is horrible that the congressional republicans will do nothing to help fix this situation.
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Postby Post-Keynesian Economics » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:06 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Post-Keynesian Economics wrote:Once again, I mainly agree with you here, but could you elaborate on why specifically you believe these exports are getting jobs in Germany?


When they are exporting goods, the demand for German exports will produce demand for jobs in Germany; the companies' factories are concentrated in Germany so any increase in demand will result in more jobs for German workers. This of course is evidenced by the massive drop in unemployment which has fallen from 11% in 2005 to only 5.3% as of 2013.


I agree. I edited my post almost as soon as I submitted it, realizing my mistake.
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Postby The Republic of Pantalleria » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:09 pm

Post-Keynesian Economics wrote:
Yue-Laou wrote:More concerned about germany. Their idiotic policy of running huge surpluses and focusing heavily on exporting is harming europe and the rest of the world. Wanted to open a thread about it but I'm too lazy.


I completely agree. Exporting isn't getting them anything actually beneficial.

Other than the fact that they're Europe's largest economy, also they have Europe's lowest rate of unemployment and let's not forget the billions of Euros they spend on research and development each year... :eyebrow:
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:11 pm

Regnum Dominae wrote:Ideally the deficit should decrease. But that shouldn't be our biggest concern. As long as debt growth is slower than GDP growth, debt is not a problem.

I don't see why anyone would want a larger debt/deficit though.

Well, it's still growing faster than the economy is. Cripes, that means the safe levels for debt increases has to be around 500 billion a year at this time.
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Postby Yue-Laou » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:12 pm

Post-Keynesian Economics wrote:
Yue-Laou wrote:More concerned about germany. Their idiotic policy of running huge surpluses and focusing heavily on exporting is harming europe and the rest of the world. Wanted to open a thread about it but I'm too lazy.


I completely agree. Exporting isn't getting them anything actually beneficial.

Of course they benefit, but they're destroying everyone around them like a big fat cancer in the middle of europe. They don't even understand it and believe they're 'europe's growth engine', that's the scary part.

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Postby The Serbian Empire » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:13 pm

Ashmoria wrote:you are so right

we need to increase spending and increase jobs.

i dont have strong enough words to say how wrong it is that we have abandoned the 20-somethings to fiscal disaster. how are they going to succeed in the world if they cant get a job for a freaking decade. it is horrible that the congressional republicans will do nothing to help fix this situation.

The Democrats were little better as they couldn't strong arm the GOP enough either. Both parties are funded by the corporate swine. As long as that's the case, I don't expect much to change unless one is to end Citizen's United.
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