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Cyborg Cockroaches: Animal Cruelty?

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Old Tyrannia
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Cyborg Cockroaches: Animal Cruelty?

Postby Old Tyrannia » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:11 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24455141

A US company that has developed an "electronic backpack" that fits onto a cockroach allowing its movements to be controlled by a mobile phone app has defended itself against cruelty claims.

The Backyard Brains company says that the device is intended to get children to be interested in neuroscience.

A spokeswoman told the BBC that the device - being formally launched on Saturday - was not a gimmick.

But critics say that the company's stance is "disingenuous".

For the "electronic backpack" to work the cockroaches have to be placed in icy water to subdue them before sandpaper is used to remove the waxy coating on the shell of the insect's head.

An electrode connector and electrodes are then glued on to the insect's body and a needle is used to poke a hole in their thorax in order to insert a wire.

Their antennae are then cut and electrodes are inserted. A circuit is attached to their backs, and signals are received through a mobile phone app allowing users to control the cockroaches' movements to the left and to the right.

Animal behaviour scientist Jonathan Balcombe has been quoted on US scientific websites as saying that the insects are harmed in the process.

"If it was discovered that a teacher was having students use magnifying glasses to burn ants and then look at their tissue, how would people react?" he is quoted as saying.

Likewise Queen's University philosophy Professor Michael Allen warned that the device will "encourage amateurs to operate invasively on living organisms" and "encourage thinking of complex living organisms as mere machines or tools".

The Michigan-based company has even received emails saying the the backpack - known as Roboroach - "teaches kids to be psychopaths".

But Backyard Brains says that 20% of the world will soon have a neurological disorder - for which there are no known cures - and the backpacks "allow students to do graduate level research early in life".

A company spokeswoman told the BBC that the backpack had been developed solely to encourage children to take an interest in neuroscience which, she said, needed to be better taught in American schools.

"At the moment this crucially important subject is woefully under-taught," she said, "with many schools teaching neuroscience within the biology syllabus when it should be a subject in its own right.

"That is especially the case when diseases of the brain such as Alzheimer's take a heavier toll within society."

The spokeswoman insisted that the insects are treated humanely and that the backpack - first developed in 2011 - does not harm them.

The backpack will be widely available in November in the US priced at $99 (£61).


So basically, this American company has invented an app allowing children to control cockroaches using an electronic "backpack" attached to the insects which makes them go left or right. The cockroaches have to undergo a traumatic experience involving being submerged in icy cold water then wires being inserted into their bodies. And this is perfectly legal, and is being developed as a learning tool for children in American schools. But some people think that somehow, this might be an incy bit unethical. The company say that this is justifiable under the same sort of arguments as animal testing, since it might encourage some children to become neuroscientists one day, and therefore may contribute to discovering cures or treatments for neurological disorders such as Alzheimer's.

I call bullshit. This is extremely cruel and not something which can be justified by such a flimsy argument. How anyone can not find this cruel is utterly beyond me, and is testament in my view to the arrogance and moral vacuum of the human race. Anyone care to disagree?
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Postby Risottia » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:13 am

Cyborgs are awesome.

And cruel.
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Postby Absolute Power » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:15 am

Karma. Someday, Rabbits will do that to us. Evil things.
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Postby Risottia » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:16 am

Absolute Power wrote:Karma. Someday Already Rabbits will have done that to us. Evil things.


Fixed because H2G2 is my ally, and a powerful ally it is.
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Postby Dremono » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:16 am

We'll regret this when Cockroaches take over in the future. Tsk, tsk. How would you feel if you were being controlled by giants? The truth is people, cockroaches don't need a protest group.
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Postby Tsuntion » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:17 am

My first thought is yes, absolutely animal cruelty. I think they could only try it because cockroaches are not cute and fluffy. There are other ways to spark interest in neuroscience.
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Postby Risottia » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:18 am

Dremono wrote: The truth is people, cockroaches don't need a protest group.


I don't really understand this sentence.
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Postby Dremono » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:22 am

Risottia wrote:
Dremono wrote: The truth is people, cockroaches don't need a protest group.


I don't really understand this sentence.


Me neither. :unsure:
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Your test scores indicate that you are an open-minded ultra-progressive; this is the political profile one might associate with a university professor. It appears that you are skeptical towards religion, and have a balanced attitude towards humanity in general.

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To round out the picture you appear to be, political preference aside, a sensible principled egalitarian with few strong convictions.

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Postby The IASM » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:25 am

I would find this incredibly pleasing to adapt onto let's say any animal that we need to control. Why it a demonstration of our supremacy over this planet and I see no non moral based reason why it shouldn't be done.
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Postby Risottia » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:27 am

The IASM wrote:I would find this incredibly pleasing to adapt onto let's say any animal that we need to control. Why it a demonstration of our supremacy over this planet and I see no non moral based reason why it shouldn't be done.

Then again, if we didn't base our choices on ethics, what kind of "superiority" could we claim? The "might makes right" kind of superiority?

Ok, bow down to H1N1 and worship its superiority.
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Postby Ermarian » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:29 am

Is there a scale of moral values that would object to this, but not object to the mass killing of insects via pesticides, fumigation, trapping, crushing, etc.? I don't see how that could work, and yet the former appears to be treated as far more controversial than the latter.
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Postby Risottia » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:32 am

Ermarian wrote:Is there a scale of moral values that would object to this, but not object to the mass killing of insects via pesticides, fumigation, trapping, crushing, etc.? I don't see how that could work, and yet the former appears to be treated as far more controversial than the latter.

This kind of intervention looks quite futile, actually, if compared with pest control which is done to prevent health problems and famines.
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Postby The IASM » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:34 am

Risottia wrote:
The IASM wrote:I would find this incredibly pleasing to adapt onto let's say any animal that we need to control. Why it a demonstration of our supremacy over this planet and I see no non moral based reason why it shouldn't be done.

Then again, if we didn't base our choices on ethics, what kind of "superiority" could we claim? The "might makes right" kind of superiority?

Ok, bow down to H1N1 and worship its superiority.

Well I would prefer supremacy over most of the local physical world.
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Postby Ermarian » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:36 am

But if the justifiability scales with necessity, then isn't killing billions of insects to protect our health and food supply balanced with killing individual insects for scientific education?
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Postby Sannemont » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:38 am

So, when do I get my cyborg cockroach?

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Postby New Aerios » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:38 am

They're only cockroaches. Most people would do their best to kill one if they saw one anyway. At least this may get more people interested in neuroscience, which could prove to be incredibly useful.
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Postby Zombie Bugs » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:43 am

It's unfair to bugs! Fellow insects, rise up against the humans and smite them!

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Postby The Damnatius » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:43 am

While the description of what they do to the thing makes it seem terrible, I'd still smash the damn thing the moment I see it running freely. As Arios said, they are cockroaches. It's not like they are endangered, or have emotions, or a family of five with a little flea named 'Chester', they scurry around, reproduce, and disgust the human population. At least ant's make cool little mountains, cockroaches are just nasty, and we have more than a surplus to spare.
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Postby Absolute Power » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:44 am

New Aerios wrote:They're only cockroaches. Most people would do their best to kill one if they saw one anyway. At least this may get more people interested in neuroscience, which could prove to be incredibly useful.

^
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Postby Mefpan » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:47 am

As posters before have said, these are cockroaches. The process sounds horrible, but really - there are plenty of cockroaches to go around and many would just end up squashing them anyway. This is hardly worth public outrage; science doing sciencey stuff that might actually prove useful later on.
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Postby Pharthan » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:48 am

Cockroaches, as with most animals, do not possess the necessary thalomachortical connections to be able to associate pain, cause, et cetera. They react to pain just as your leg twitches when the right nerve is struck. They cannot be tortured, in the sense of the word. They don't have the brain capacity to comprehend the notion. Many animals do not. For instance, even fish cannot be tortured; using hooked lures is not "cruel," because the animal does not comprehend pain in the same way we do. For the same reason using cockroaches in such a way is not cruel. Cruelty implies that the victim must be suffering. For something to suffer, it must be able to comprehend what is happening to it and the result. A cockroach cannot. All it can understand is that something is impeding it's survival.

To say it is cruel is to place human qualities on the cockroach, ones which it neither possess nor warrants the notion of possessing. To place such qualities on an animals is ignorant, save for perhaps Chimps, Dolphins, and the like.

I don't see how anyone who has or will ever kill a cockroach can take a "this is cruelty" side. What if, when you stomp on it the first time you don't kill it, so you have to stomp again? At that point, if it feels and comprehends pain as we do (it doesn't btw), then it's by that point it would be suffering. Now, we don't know how it perceives time. Those next few seconds could be an eternity to it. You could put it in just as much suffering.
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Postby Utceforp » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:49 am

We step on bugs every day. Now we're doing a similar thing, but with much more exciting implications. Seriously, we've invented remote controlled biological organisms. We're living in the beginning of the future, and we shouldn't be opposed to it just because we're harming simple animals we already harm in hundreds of ways whether in the form of pesticides or going "eek" and stepping on them.

Of course, it would be unethical and animal cruelty if somebody did something like this to, say, a dog, or a cow. The next step, however, is to find a way to do this to larger animals, and find a way to do so that is non-invasive or otherwise not painful to the animal.

Also, a poll would be nice.
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Postby Khanastan » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:51 am

Well it certainly seems more worthwhile than our typical use for cockroaches; standing on them to make a satisfying crunching sound.

Therefore, i'm all for it.
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Postby Thama » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:51 am

Cruel? I'm not sure Cockroaches are even self-aware. And most people would scream and try to stomp on them if they saw one. That's more cruel than controlling it.

If you're not physically or mentally hurting an animal, it's not cruelty. Here, you can't mentally hurt it because it's an invertebrate that probably doesn't even know that it itself exists, and all it does during its whole life is search for food and fuck. And making it controllable does not technically hurt it physically, I'm pretty sure the cockroach thinks it itself thought to move that way when you tell it to move that way.
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Postby Pharthan » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:54 am

Utceforp wrote:-snip-
Of course, it would be unethical and animal cruelty if somebody did something like this to, say, a dog, or a cow. The next step, however, is to find a way to do this to larger animals, and find a way to do so that is non-invasive or otherwise not painful to the animal.

Also, a poll would be nice.

Dog, yes. Dogs have the ability to correlate cause-and-effect, understand pain, punishment, and the like.
Cow, no. Cows aren't intelligent, and by no means warrant the idea that something can be "cruel." When the animal can't learn that something is painful and make mental connections involving it, then, in my opinion, you can't torture it.
If that were the case, then cows torture themselves. "Oh, hey, look, awesome grass! I just have to get over this fence an-*zap* ow, hey, that hurt... oh, hey look, awesome grass! I just have to get over this fence an-*zap*," for hours on end.
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