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What if the Soviet Union never existed?

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Carpathian Ukraine
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What if the Soviet Union never existed?

Postby Carpathian Ukraine » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:30 am

So,title says it it all.What if the White Russians,with the assistance of the Great Powers had won the Russian Civil War and established a Russian Republic?What if this new Russia,weakened from the war,never fully recovered andremained a backwards country for years?How would this affect the world?

In October of 1919, Denikin was launching his offensive on Moscow. While the Whites were not what one would necessarily call "unified," they were far from the splintered warlords they would become in 1920 and for the remainder of the war.

Wrangel had fairly solid control over the majority of White forces in Southern Russia/the Ukraine since his spat with Denikin hadn't yet flared up (it was by and large caused by the decisive failure of the Moscow campaign), and the same goes for Yudenich in the Baltics and Kolchak in Siberia. In fact, up until 1920, Kolchak was still officially regarded by Denikin, Wrangel, and Yudenich as the legitimate Commander-in-Chief of all White forces.

If Denikin is not betrayed by Makhno while he's en route to Moscow, or if he just decides not to send six regiments back to fight Makhno (which they never wound up doing, the anarchists basically having just pulled an ineffectual hit-and-run on Denikin's supply lines before the reinforcements could do anything about it), Denikin would most likely have defeated the Bolsheviks at the Battle of Oryol.

A White victory at Oryol means that the Bolsheviks are going to reconsider the forces they sent to beef-up Petrograd (which they had previously thought of abandoning and were only dissuaded by Trotsky ignoring their opinions and sending them anyways) and call them back to the capital. This means that Petrograd will fall to Yudenich and, even if the Red forces make it back in time, Moscow will probably fall to Denikin.

We should remember that in OTL, the Whites only really started to come undone after 1919 (corruption, drug abuse, arms-dealing, black marketeering, etc. were already endemic to the Whites, but not yet cripplingly so). The winter of 1919 is when Yudenich bowed out, basically leaving Whites in the Baltics and northwestern Russia without a leader. It's also the year that Denikin and Wrangel started fighting over what to do with their forces, a fight that would lead to Wrangel's resignation (and later brief re-installment) and Denikin and his cronies-cum-warlords grabbing land, wantonly looting, alienating Ukrainians with cultural chauvinism, and basically reversing all of the progress that the reform-minded Wrangel had initiated, thereby losing the support of most of the peasantry. And Kolchak? Well, he just got more and more autocratic when he realized he was the Whites' last chance at achieving anything. So there we have it. A White victory complete with all of the delicious butterflies that come with them still having refused to recognize Finnish and Polish independence.


The Whites win in late-1919-early 1920, something that is very, very plausible. A junta is established between Denikin, Wrangel, Kolchak, and Yudenich. It is decided that Wrangel becomes head of government (probably alongside Milyukov and Pepelyayev) while Denikin and Yudenich are put in charge of the military. Kolchak becomes an élément grise in Russian politics, sort of like a Hindenburg-Ludendorff mix; a figure given deference who sort of stays behind the scenes but is the man to call when "decisive measures" must be taken to reestablish "order."

Meanwhile, the near-universally beloved Grand Duke Nikolai becomes Tsar, though this time he is a constitutional monarch with negligible power at best. This not only satisfies traditionalists and democrats, but also provides the nation with an untainted figurehead that pretty much everybody can rally around.

After an ill-fated Russian experiment with parliamentary democracy à la pre-fascist Italy, Kolchak (at the urging of Grand Duke Cyril who ascends the throne in 1929) finally steps in to reestablish "law and order" and becomes the de facto dictator of Russia. People who present a threat to his new order like Denikin and Kutepov and much of the Army high-command will probably be purged.

Kolchak probably dies some time in the '30s. During and after his reign, movements like Aleksandr Kazem-Bek's Mladorossi gains momentum with its unique and popular (and typically fascist) slogans promoting both industrialization/modernization and traditionalism. Mladorossi or something with a similar name but in the same mold becomes the major (and eventually only) political party in Russia.

The charismatic and handsome Kazem-Bek becomes dictator after Kolchak kicks the bucket. How long his rule lasts is debatable due to his being of Azeri stock, but the major point is that his general philosophy of a social monarchy ("Tsar and the Soviets!") becomes the norm. His most likely successor is Anastasy Vonsyatsky (who may not be bigoted enough), or maybe Konstantin Rodzayevsky.

Ethnicities that will most likely be targeted under the Whites (and I'm assuming we have pre-WWII Soviet borders here) are Jews (of course), Poles, Gypsies, Ukrainians (i.e. people who regard themselves as "Ukrainians" rather than "Little Russians"), Volga Germans, Crimean Karaites, possibly Chinese, perhaps Finns, and maybe Azeris depending on if and how far Kazem-Bek falls. Obviously homosexuals and non-Orthodox will be persecuted, the only exception being Muslims. Also expect a great deal of anti-Western sentiment.

Caucasians and Central Asian tribesmen like Kazakhs and Kalmyks and Buryats and Turkmen will in all likelihood not be targeted for two main reasons; the anti-Bolshevism that the majority of these groups displayed, and the distinct lack of general anti-Tsarist sentiment amongst them. In fact, the tribesmen will probably join the Cossacks in the pantheon of "martial races" (excellent theory, RGB). Again, the fate of Azeris largely depends on the success or failure of Kazem-Bek.

Interestingly, the concept of "sophisticated secret policemen vs. partisan street thugs" like we see exemplified in the rivalry between the SS and SA already existed in Imperial Russia. The "sophisticated" aspect—the Okhrana—will be reestablished, expanded, and revitalized under the leadership of people like Mikhail Diterikhs. The "street thug" element will lie in the resurrected Yellow Shirts under the command of somebody like Lev Okhotin or Gen. Vladimir Kozmin.

Another thing of note is the viability of Konstantin Rodzayevsky as the successor to basically any post. Head of the Okhrana, head of the Yellow Shirts, even Vozhd (or whatever the head honcho spot is called); Rodzayevsky could potentially succeed to any one (or perhaps even two) of these positions.

Basically, the regime we get is a cross between Iron Guard Romania and Francoist Spain alongside some major elements of clerical fascism.
Last edited by Carpathian Ukraine on Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Blazedtown
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Postby Blazedtown » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:31 am

Luxemburg would have won WW2 and dominated Europe from the Bay of Biscayne to the Ural Mountains.
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Postby Priory Academy USSR » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:32 am

Mr Trololo would never have risen to fame.
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Transhuman Proteus
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Postby Transhuman Proteus » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:32 am

We wouldn't have those "...in Soviet Russia *something something* you!" jokes

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Carpathian Ukraine
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Postby Carpathian Ukraine » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:33 am

Priory Academy USSR wrote:Mr Trololo would never have risen to fame.


*nod of approval*
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Postby Gandoor » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:33 am

it didn't exist

it's a capitalist lie to discredit communism
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:33 am

Russian Reversals wouldn't be so funny.
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Ayreonia
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Postby Ayreonia » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:36 am

The world would probably be a shittier place.

Well, might have been good for Russia itself. Maybe.

Hitler would have won, the Space Race and all its awesomeness would never have happened, and Red Alert 2 wouldn't exist. That's pretty shitty in my book.
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Postby Ryccia » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:37 am

Nothing. Well, actually, USA would had a weaker enemy.
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Bolguria
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Postby Bolguria » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:37 am

Lada wouldn't have existed. :(
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Postby Camelza » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:39 am

There would be no sputniks!

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Kelvaros Prime
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Postby Kelvaros Prime » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:39 am

We wouldn't have vodka.
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Ayreonia
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Postby Ayreonia » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:39 am

Ryccia wrote:Nothing. Well, actually, USA would had a weaker enemy.

Why would a capitalist, weak, backwards Russia have been an enemy of the US?
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Priory Academy USSR
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Postby Priory Academy USSR » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:39 am

Risottia wrote:Russian Reversals wouldn't be so funny.


In Capitalist America, you go to parties.
In Tsarist Russia, only the Tsar goes to parties!
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Postby The Holy Therns » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:39 am

If the Soviet Union never existed, then the Soviet Union never existed.

I think. Of course, I could be wrong...
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Postby United Tiberia » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:40 am

Most of Europe would probably be speaking German
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Mordakia
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Postby Mordakia » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:40 am

Hitler would rule half of Europe and the war would drag on until everyone died.
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The IASM
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Postby The IASM » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:40 am

The USA would have a Cold War with somebody else.
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Ryccia
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Postby Ryccia » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:41 am

I mean, the russian goberment who opposed USA stayed in one of the countries.
And, Im really sad the Soviet Union existed. They made the ridiculous vodka.
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Ainin
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Postby Ainin » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:41 am

What if the moon was purple? What if Pizza Hut controlled Monaco? What if Queen Victoria was elected President of the Russian Federation?

Hypotheticals... >.<
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Vastyr
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Postby Vastyr » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:43 am

Russia would more than likely still be very far behind in terms of technological, infrastructure and economical means. The country would still have enormous amounts of peasantry, and more than likely still be a very farmer based country.

As well, the invasion of the Soviet Union would probably of been more successful overall, but highly unlikely to be anything more.

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Ayreonia
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Postby Ayreonia » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:43 am

Ainin wrote:What if Pizza Hut controlled Monaco?

They'd make pizza-shaped roulette wheels. Instead of numbers, you'd bet on toppings.

"Twenty on the slightly burnt shrimp, please."
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Postby Fulflood » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:44 am

The IASM wrote:The USA would have a Cold War with somebody else.

Germany. Or there'd be no need for a Cold War because Germany and Japan would just have taken over the US anyway.

Alternatively, we could assume that Tsarist Russia also fought off the Nazis, which is possible but probably less likely.

Or that the UK and France (and Italy at that time) would have fought Germany earlier because the Communist threat which they were appeasing the Nazis to fight wouldn't have existed.
Last edited by Fulflood on Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Vastyr
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Postby Vastyr » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:44 am

Conscentia wrote:
United Tiberia wrote:Most of Europe would probably be speaking German

This.

Hardly. Hitler's regime wouldn't of lasted very long.

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