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Is Democratic Socialism on its way out?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Is Democratic Socialism on its way out?

Yes
10
14%
No
56
77%
Unsure
7
10%
Other
0
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Total votes : 73

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Avenio
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Ex-Nation

Is Democratic Socialism on its way out?

Postby Avenio » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:15 am

The Globe and Mail - Ian Buruma wrote:Twenty years ago, when the Berlin Wall was breached and the Soviet empire was collapsing, only diehard believers in a communist utopia felt unhappy. A few people, of course, clung to the possibility of what was once called “actually existing socialism.” Others criticized the triumphalism of the “new world order” promised by George H.W. Bush. And the way West Germany rolled over the wreckage of its East German neighbour seemed almost like an act of cruelty.

Still, except in China, 1989 was a good time to be alive. Many of us felt we were seeing the dawn of a new liberal age in which freedom and justice would spread, like fresh flowers, across the globe. Twenty years on, we know it was not to be.

Xenophobic populism is stalking Europe's democracies. Social democratic parties are shrinking, while right-wing demagogues promise to protect “Western values” from the Islamic hordes. And the economic debacles of the past few years seem to bear out Mikhail Gorbachev's recent warning that “Western capitalism, too, deprived of its old adversary and imagining itself the undisputed victor and incarnation of global progress, is at risk of leading Western society and the rest of the world down another historical blind alley.”

The way it looks now, liberals, in the “progressive” American sense of the word, may actually have been among the losers of 1989. Social democrats were always despised by communists, and vice versa. But many social democratic ideals, rooted in Marxist notions of social justice and equality, were thrown out, like the proverbial baby, with the bathwater of communism.

This process was already under way before the fall of the Berlin Wall, with the free-market radicalism of Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan. Society doesn't exist, Mrs. Thatcher once famously declared – only individuals and families count. Everyone is for themselves.

For many people, this had the ring of liberation – from overregulated markets, from overbearing trade unions, from class privilege. That is why it was called neo-liberalism. But free-market radicalism undermined the role of the state in building a better, more just, more equal society. Neo-liberals are less interested in justice than in greater efficiency, more productivity, the bottom line.

While the neo-liberals were slashing and burning their way through old social democratic arrangements, the left was dissipating its energies on cultural politics, “identity” and ideological multiculturalism. Democratic idealism was once the domain of the left, including social democrats and liberals. In the United States, it had been the Democratic Party, embodied by John Kennedy, that promoted freedom around the world.

But in the late 20th century, it became more important to many leftists to save “Third World” culture, no matter how barbaric, from “neo-colonialism” than it was to support equality and democracy. People on the left would defend brutal dictators (Mao, Fidel Castro, Pol Pot, Ruhollah Khomaini) simply because they opposed “Western imperialism.”

As a result, all politics derived from Marxism, no matter how loosely, lost credibility and finally died in 1989. This was, naturally, a disaster for communists and socialists – but also for social democrats, for they had lost an ideological basis for their idealism. And without idealism, politics becomes a form of accounting, a management of purely material interests.

This explains why Italy, and later Thailand, chose business tycoons as leaders. Voters hoped these men who had accumulated so much personal wealth could do the same for them.

Yet, the rhetoric of idealism has not quite disappeared. It has merely shifted from left to right. This, too, began with Mr. Reagan and Mrs. Thatcher. They took up JFK's promotion of democracy in the world. Once the left abandoned the language of internationalism, democratic revolution and national liberation, it was taken up by neo-conservatives. Their promotion of U.S. military force as the strong arm of democracy may have been misguided, crude, arrogant, ignorant, naive and deeply dangerous, but it was indisputably idealistic.

The allure of revolutionary élan has drawn some former leftists to the neo-conservative side. But most liberals have been deeply alarmed by the neo-cons, without finding a coherent response.

Having lost their own zest for internationalism, a common liberal response has been a call for “realism,” non-interference and withdrawal from the world. This often may be the wiser course, but it hardly inspires. So it is that a left-wing internationalist such as French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner can find a home for his idealism in his country's conservative government.

For the first time since the Kennedy administration, the United States is one of the only liberal democracies in the world with a centre-left government. Can President Barack Obama lead the way to a new era of social and political idealism? It seems unlikely. His efforts to provide Americans with better health care, for example, is not so much an innovation as an attempt to catch up with programs most Europeans and Japanese have long taken for granted. For this, he is already being called a “socialist” by his enemies.

Mr. Obama is neither a socialist nor a mere political accountant. He has some modest ideals, and may yet prove an excellent president. But what's needed to revive liberal idealism is a set of new ideas on promoting global justice, equality and freedom. Mr. Reagan, Mrs. Thatcher and Mr. Gorbachev assisted in the end of an ideology that once offered hope and inspired real progress, but resulted in slavery and mass murder. We are still waiting for a new vision that can lead to progress – this time, we hope, without tyranny.


The author brings up an interesting point, to say the least. Democratic socialism, as an ideology, has been in a sort of limbo since the fall of the Soviet Union, and I think that some rather large mistakes and concessions were made unnecessarily, and we've fallen into unnecessary arguing and bickering over what it means to be a democratic socialist, and given far too much fodder and breathing room for the other parties.

What do you think, NSG?

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Arumdaum
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Founded: Oct 21, 2009
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Arumdaum » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:22 am

no
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Barringtonia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Barringtonia » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:28 am

There's a book by Julian Barnes called The Porcupine, which is the story of a recently-deposed dictator of a communist country - likely based on Ceaucescu I think - sitting in his cell contemplating his life. It's a very good book.

Anyway, he notes that Democracy lasted less than 50 years in its first incarnation, Communism is still going 80 years on from 1919 so it has legs.

The USSR caused Communism to be equated with 'the enemy' and associated with 'repression', that's not necessarily the case.

That will fade over time and the 'baby thrown out with the bathwater', in terms of progressive social ideas and greater equality in opportunity for all, I can only see democratic socialism becoming stronger.
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Brogavia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Brogavia » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:45 am

Dear Zeus, I hope so.

Socialism and communism in any form are more dangerous than ten million nuclear bombs.
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Kobrania
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Ex-Nation

Postby Kobrania » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:50 am

You sir, are delusional, most of Europe is slightly socialist.
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Allbeama
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Postby Allbeama » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:53 am

I think not, but it is a tough sell in the US at the present time. As far as I am concerned I would like to see Nationalism, authoritarianism, and anything that calls itself Fascism phased out, but the thing is, Ideas are long lived and hard to kill, regardless of how you view Idea x, it will likely outlive you.
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Brogavia
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Postby Brogavia » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:55 am

Kobrania wrote:You sir, are delusional, most of Europe is slightly socialist.


I believe he is refering to the rise of Nationalist rightwing, anti-muslim parties throughout Europe in response to the growing population of Muslim immigrants.
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Kobrania
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Postby Kobrania » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:56 am

Brogavia wrote:
Kobrania wrote:You sir, are delusional, most of Europe is slightly socialist.


I believe he is refering to the rise of Nationalist rightwing, anti-muslim parties throughout Europe in response to the growing population of Muslim immigrants.

Oh.

...good then.

*goes to find some decent espresso based coffee drinks*
"Only when you acknowledge that your country has done evil and ignore it will you be a patriot." -TJ.

ZIONISM = JUSTIFYING GENOCIDE WITH GOD.

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Capitalistliberals
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Postby Capitalistliberals » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:56 am

Brogavia wrote:Dear Zeus, I hope so.

Socialism and communism in any form are more dangerous than ten million nuclear bombs.


being a strong Hayekian its always strange when i defend socialism... Read Marx your equating leninism/stalinism with the Marx which isn't correct. Marx's philosophy is utopian and beutiful, the only issue is that it never will work because people are greedy. Moreover merchantilism and imperialist capitalism tend to be far more dangerous in a global age...
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Bormanico
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Postby Bormanico » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:59 am

Democratic Socialism, as i understand it is just a centre-right economy which takes principles from both socialism and free-market advocates. So in that sense, no it's not on the way out, i don't think.

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Brogavia
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Postby Brogavia » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:01 am

Capitalistliberals wrote:
Brogavia wrote:Dear Zeus, I hope so.

Socialism and communism in any form are more dangerous than ten million nuclear bombs.


being a strong Hayekian its always strange when i defend socialism... Read Marx your equating leninism/stalinism with the Marx which isn't correct. Marx's philosophy is utopian and beutiful, the only issue is that it never will work because people are greedy. Moreover merchantilism and imperialist capitalism tend to be far more dangerous in a global age...


Without a free market, you cannot have free people.

Note how I said in any form.

There are other forms of socialism, and all are equally dangerous.
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Vectrova
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Vectrova » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:02 am

I fear for this world if the concepts of equality, justice, and basic liberty are no longer in vogue. I also resent the author's belief that social democracy must stem from Marxism, which is like saying all bombs must come from a bomber plane. Deriving political philosophies from economic ones... doesn't happen. Successfully, at any rate.
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Kobrania
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Ex-Nation

Postby Kobrania » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:04 am

Brogavia wrote:
Capitalistliberals wrote:
Brogavia wrote:Dear Zeus, I hope so.

Socialism and communism in any form are more dangerous than ten million nuclear bombs.


being a strong Hayekian its always strange when i defend socialism... Read Marx your equating leninism/stalinism with the Marx which isn't correct. Marx's philosophy is utopian and beutiful, the only issue is that it never will work because people are greedy. Moreover merchantilism and imperialist capitalism tend to be far more dangerous in a global age...


Without a free market, you cannot have free people.

Note how I said in any form.

There are other forms of socialism, and all are equally dangerous.


Still most of Europe is socialist.

And the European mega-state ha a higher GDP than America.
"Only when you acknowledge that your country has done evil and ignore it will you be a patriot." -TJ.

ZIONISM = JUSTIFYING GENOCIDE WITH GOD.

Kobrania, the anti-KMA.

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Bormanico
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Ex-Nation

Postby Bormanico » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:06 am

Brogavia wrote:
Capitalistliberals wrote:
Brogavia wrote:Dear Zeus, I hope so.

Socialism and communism in any form are more dangerous than ten million nuclear bombs.


being a strong Hayekian its always strange when i defend socialism... Read Marx your equating leninism/stalinism with the Marx which isn't correct. Marx's philosophy is utopian and beutiful, the only issue is that it never will work because people are greedy. Moreover merchantilism and imperialist capitalism tend to be far more dangerous in a global age...


Without a free market, you cannot have free people.

Note how I said in any form.

There are other forms of socialism, and all are equally dangerous.


I love the free market just as much as the next guy. But you do realize that nowadays everything is just shades of socialism/capitalism right? Theres no 100% free market.
Last edited by Bormanico on Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Maurepas
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Postby Maurepas » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:07 am

Bormanico wrote:
I love the free market just as much as the next guy. But you do realize that nowadays everything is just shades of socialism/capitalism right? Theres no 100% free market.

The free market is a lie, its a fair market that you want to look for...

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Allbeama
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Postby Allbeama » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:09 am

Brogavia wrote:
Capitalistliberals wrote:
Brogavia wrote:Dear Zeus, I hope so.

Socialism and communism in any form are more dangerous than ten million nuclear bombs.


being a strong Hayekian its always strange when i defend socialism... Read Marx your equating leninism/stalinism with the Marx which isn't correct. Marx's philosophy is utopian and beutiful, the only issue is that it never will work because people are greedy. Moreover merchantilism and imperialist capitalism tend to be far more dangerous in a global age...


Without a free market, you cannot have free people.

Note how I said in any form.

There are other forms of socialism, and all are equally dangerous.


Only if you fear a government designed to work for its people, and a people committed to equality. I suppose the possibility to be free and equal scares you, though.

There is corporate tyranny, Brogavia. Socialism is merely a response to that fact.
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DieInAFire
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Ex-Nation

Postby DieInAFire » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:11 am

I <3 socialism.

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Brogavia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Brogavia » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:11 am

Kobrania wrote:
Brogavia wrote:
Capitalistliberals wrote:
Brogavia wrote:Dear Zeus, I hope so.

Socialism and communism in any form are more dangerous than ten million nuclear bombs.


being a strong Hayekian its always strange when i defend socialism... Read Marx your equating leninism/stalinism with the Marx which isn't correct. Marx's philosophy is utopian and beutiful, the only issue is that it never will work because people are greedy. Moreover merchantilism and imperialist capitalism tend to be far more dangerous in a global age...


Without a free market, you cannot have free people.

Note how I said in any form.

There are other forms of socialism, and all are equally dangerous.


Still most of Europe is socialist.

And the European mega-state ha a higher GDP than America.


Well considering you have around 200 million more people than America does, and only 800 Billion US difference? ( $14.441 trillion for the US and 15.247 trillion for the EU)
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Yekrut
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Re: Is Democratic Socialism on its way out?

Postby Yekrut » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:15 am

Not likely.

Affluence - which we will eventually see on a global scale - carries with it a certain problem; as every economist will tell you, the Law of Diminishing Marginal Returns is universal. That applies to wealth as well: The value of an individual’s second million dollars is always less than the value of his first.

The upshot of this is simple: As society becomes more affluent, sacrificing wealth for non-pecuniary benefits (such as public goods) becomes an ever-better trade-off. While some individuals will always insist on controlling every dollar that passes through their hands (for psychological reasons), many will be willing to pay that extra tax for parks, libraries, assistance programs for the less fortunate, etc. - simply because the value of the dollars taken is less than the psychic value of the public goods purchased.

Now, one should be careful to recognise this for what it is: Not Marxism, but a simple calculation that it’s nicer to live in a society where people in need get help, where there are “free” things to enjoy, and where there’s a greater sense of community.

It may take a generation, but I think we’ll see the political pendulum swing back the other way. We’re not likely to see it go all the way back to collectivism, mind you, if only because collectivism has proven itself an utter failure; we will, on the other hand, likely see societies move more and more towards making sure that the less fortunate have a chance. The trick will be doing it in a way that doesn’t foster dependence, because few people care for that.

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Yoreland
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Postby Yoreland » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:16 am

Unfortunately, people have forgotten the power of a hierarchy and instead insist on a mindless equality. Sadly, socialism is here to stay in the 'age of reason'
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Libertarian Governance
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Postby Libertarian Governance » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:21 am

Seems pretty popular in Europe, Canada and the USA.
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Allbeama
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Postby Allbeama » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:23 am

Yoreland wrote:Unfortunately, people have forgotten the power of a hierarchy and instead insist on a mindless equality. Sadly, socialism is here to stay in the 'age of reason'


Mindless equality, hmm, the power of hierarchy, hmm, you can take your authoritarian ideas to another place, because we do not want them here.
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Archeth
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Ex-Nation

Postby Archeth » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:29 am

Don’t forget that corruption comes with any form of government. What is needed is a balance between the power that the government holds and the power that the people hold. If the government holds too much power it tends to step on the people it is supposed to protect and if the people hold too much power they tend to just step on each other. I would hope that people will look at things like socialism with an open mind and not just shun it.
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Maurepas
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Postby Maurepas » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:44 am

Archeth wrote:Don’t forget that corruption comes with any form of government. What is needed is a balance between the power that the government holds and the power that the people hold. If the government holds too much power it tends to step on the people it is supposed to protect and if the people hold too much power they tend to just step on each other. I would hope that people will look at things like socialism with an open mind and not just shun it.

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Kilobugya
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kilobugya » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:49 am

Avenio wrote:The author brings up an interesting point, to say the least. Democratic socialism, as an ideology, has been in a sort of limbo since the fall of the Soviet Union, and I think that some rather large mistakes and concessions were made unnecessarily, and we've fallen into unnecessary arguing and bickering over what it means to be a democratic socialist, and given far too much fodder and breathing room for the other parties.

What do you think, NSG?


Venezuela, Ecuador, Bolivia, ... are the living proof democratic socialism is not "on its way out" but "on its way in". It's the future, not the past.
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