Your opinion of transgender people

[Grenartia]

So I'm sure this has been brought up before... but that thread title is a little iffy.

If there was a "Your opinion about black people" thread I don't think it would have lasted this long.

I know. But I can't think of anything better.

[Cosara]

I do not support their descision in the very least bit.

[Saiwania]

Mother nature also says we don't have the right to live past the ripe old age of 35. I'll leave the implications of that logic unstated.

Actually, the natural human lifespan is around 120 years, if you do almost every single thing right health wise and have all of your needs met; which is plenty of time. The reason early humans had a much shorter lifespan had more to do with a lack of resources, hygiene, and security, than any inherent biological limit of 35.

Because heaven forbid you recognize somebody who identifies as female as being female.

Absolutely not, if the person was born as a male and is only "female" from a sex change operation. They currently cannot pass the 2/3 rule because they'd have male genotype, male gonads, but only female phenotype.

[Ganos Lao]

I could really care less about them.

What I mean is - it's not my life, it's theirs. If they're not bothering me or others, who cares?

[The God-Realm]

Tell me, what do you think?

[The Truth and Light]

I could really care less about them.

What I mean is - it's not my life, it's theirs. If they're not bothering me or others, who cares?

I would almost rather you hate it than be apathetic about it. Because we can call out hate and stop it, but apathy just ignores the shit transgender people go through and dismisses any need to understand it or discuss it, when it needs to be discussed and understood.

[Herrebrugh]

It's not really my business, I guess.

But if someone wants to switch genders, I say go for it.

[Zottistan]

I could really care less about them.

What I mean is - it's not my life, it's theirs. If they're not bothering me or others, who cares?

I would almost rather you hate it than be apathetic about it. Because we can call out hate and stop it, but apathy just ignores the shit transgender people go through and dismisses any need to understand it or discuss it, when it needs to be discussed and understood.

You can be indifferent to transgendered people and not indifferent to hate directed at them.

[Ganos Lao]

I would almost rather you hate it than be apathetic about it. Because we can call out hate and stop it, but apathy just ignores the shit transgender people go through and dismisses any need to understand it or discuss it, when it needs to be discussed and understood.

You can be indifferent to transgendered people and not indifferent to hate directed at them.

Exactly. That was the point of my post.

[Anachronous Rex]

And if you are born a female, but discover at 14 that you have a Y-chromosome you are a...?

That falls under my 2/3 rule. If a female has male genotype but female gonads and phenotype, I'm comfortable with considering her to be a female because she's more female than male, and the third category is used by me as a tie breaker.

Because it would be wrong for someone who is an ambiguous case to decide for themselves? Or even someone who is not an ambiguous case?

"I'm comfortable recognizing complexity in the issue of gender, just so long as there is still no choice in the matter. Because I'm not comfortable with people being anything other then what I arbitrarily decree them to be."

[Neutraligon]

I do not support their descision in the very least bit.

Why? and why are we only talking about those who actually have srs?

[Saiwania]

Because it would be wrong for someone who is an ambiguous case to decide for themselves? Or even someone who is not an ambiguous case?

"I'm comfortable recognizing complexity in the issue of gender, just so long as there is still no choice in the matter. Because I'm not comfortable with people being anything other then what I arbitrarily decree them to be."

You've got to understand that I don't believe people can simply just be whatever sex they want to be just because they say so, if it is primarily something that you are born into. It is my way of drawing the line somewhere and I don't think it is arbitrary. It is simply taking the 3 main physical characteristics of biological sex (genotype, phenotype, gonads) and using it to make a determination of male or female. Since 3 is a nice prime number, in almost every scenario it'd have an answer for what sex somebody is because a tie would be impossible.

[Mistelemr]

I remember talking similarly about homosexual pride on rev-left and getting banned for it. For the record let me state, Cis-gender, supportive of trans, recognize more than two genders, and pro gay rights.

Now, where I have a problem is when people throw around the term "pride" and create an identity politic around being whatever they are. My point is, who should care if you're gay, or trans or what have you? Be as you are and live like the rest of us, as if it's another facet of your life, not the defining central pillar of it. The obvious issue with that however is the fact that unfortunately many non cis-gender heterosexuals are discriminated against avidly, so my point only applies in a world where equality has been achieved, but until then can we please get rid of the notion of pride?

If you're gay or trans be proud you have survived as a gay or trans person, don't be proud of the base fact that you are homosexual or transsexual. There's nothing more special about being gay or trans than there is about being German, Irish, or 1.75 meters. You don't see people going around celebrating and throwing pride parades about their heights do you?

TL;DR being gay or trans is a happenstance of nature, you could have just as easily not have been so, therefore it's foolish to have pride in such a thing.

[Neutraligon]

I remember talking similarly about homosexual pride on rev-left and getting banned for it. For the record let me state, Cis-gender, supportive of trans, recognize more than two genders, and pro gay rights.

Now, where I have a problem is when people throw around the term "pride" and create an identity politic around being whatever they are. My point is, who should care if you're gay, or trans or what have you? Be as you are and live like the rest of us, as if it's another facet of your life, not the defining central pillar of it. The obvious issue with that however is the fact that unfortunately many non cis-gender heterosexuals are discriminated against avidly, so my point only applies in a world where equality has been achieved, but until then can we please get rid of the notion of pride?

If you're gay or trans be proud you have survived as a gay or trans person, don't be proud of the base fact that you are homosexual or transsexual. There's nothing more special about being gay or trans than there is about being German, Irish, or 1.75 meters. You don't see people going around celebrating and throwing pride parades about their heights do you?

TL;DR being gay or trans is a happenstance of nature, you could have just as easily not have been so, therefore it's foolish to have pride in such a thing.

You are misunderstanding the purpose of the word pride in this case. LGBT* have been shamed for being what we are for a very long time. the purpose of pride is to say we have no reason to feel shamed for being what we are. We are willing and able to declare to the world, screw you we are not ashamed.

[Mistelemr]

I remember talking similarly about homosexual pride on rev-left and getting banned for it. For the record let me state, Cis-gender, supportive of trans, recognize more than two genders, and pro gay rights.

Now, where I have a problem is when people throw around the term "pride" and create an identity politic around being whatever they are. My point is, who should care if you're gay, or trans or what have you? Be as you are and live like the rest of us, as if it's another facet of your life, not the defining central pillar of it. The obvious issue with that however is the fact that unfortunately many non cis-gender heterosexuals are discriminated against avidly, so my point only applies in a world where equality has been achieved, but until then can we please get rid of the notion of pride?

If you're gay or trans be proud you have survived as a gay or trans person, don't be proud of the base fact that you are homosexual or transsexual. There's nothing more special about being gay or trans than there is about being German, Irish, or 1.75 meters. You don't see people going around celebrating and throwing pride parades about their heights do you?

TL;DR being gay or trans is a happenstance of nature, you could have just as easily not have been so, therefore it's foolish to have pride in such a thing.

You are misunderstanding the purpose of the word pride in this case. LGBT* have been shamed for being what we are for a very long time. the purpose of pride is to say we have no reason to feel shamed for being what we are. We are willing and able to declare to the world, screw you we are not ashamed.

If that is the simple extent to which you use the word pride I'm fine with it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being open about whom you are. I just want to make sure the line between not being ashamed, and feeling entitled to more because of a random occurrence in nature, isn't crossed at any point.

I very well understand the point of being shamed in modern culture and in the past two-thousand years leading up to it, however this is a topic where I feel I haven't fully misunderstood this, because, as in any movement, there are extremists who go further than what the average person supports. To this end, think of misandrists in feminism. Feminism is something completely worthy of support, but if anywhere misandry shows it's presence there. My words are just a precautionary measure to counter a potential "gay-nationalism".

[Zurich Confederacy]

They have delusions.

[Fintanland]

They have delusions.

Delusions are beliefs incompatible with reality. Gender is a self-assigned status. How can something self-assigned be out of contact with reality?

[Cameroi]

i want to hug them. they're brave souls to be doing what is right for their own lives, harmless to the rest of the planet, and shunned by village idiots.

[Grenartia]

I do not support their descision in the very least bit.

For no good reason, I take it?

Mother nature also says we don't have the right to live past the ripe old age of 35. I'll leave the implications of that logic unstated.

1. Actually, the natural human lifespan is around 120 years, if you do almost every single thing right health wise and have all of your needs met; which is plenty of time. The reason early humans had a much shorter lifespan had more to do with a lack of resources, hygiene, and security, than any inherent biological limit of 35.

Because heaven forbid you recognize somebody who identifies as female as being female.

2. Absolutely not, if the person was born as a male and is only "female" from a sex change operation. They currently cannot pass the 2/3 rule because they'd have male genotype, male gonads, but only female phenotype.

1. I'm aware. However, my point still stands.

2. Except you only created that rule so you could explicitly ignore identity, and therefore not have to recognize an MtF woman as a woman. It proves my point.

Tell me, what do you think?

I did. In the OP...

Because it would be wrong for someone who is an ambiguous case to decide for themselves? Or even someone who is not an ambiguous case?

"I'm comfortable recognizing complexity in the issue of gender, just so long as there is still no choice in the matter. Because I'm not comfortable with people being anything other then what I arbitrarily decree them to be."

You've got to understand that I don't believe people can simply just be whatever sex they want to be just because they say so, if it is primarily something that you are born into. It is my way of drawing the line somewhere and I don't think it is arbitrary. It is simply taking the 3 main physical characteristics of biological sex (genotype, phenotype, gonads) and using it to make a determination of male or female. Since 3 is a nice prime number, in almost every scenario it'd have an answer for what sex somebody is because a tie would be impossible.

Basically, instead of changing your stance to fit the facts, logic, and reality, you are changing reality, logic, and the facts to match your stance. Intellectual dishonesty at its pinnacle.

[Grenartia]

They have delusions.

Got a legitimate, scientific, peer-reviewed source to back up that claim?

i want to hug them. they're brave souls to be doing what is right for their own lives, harmless to the rest of the planet, and shunned by village idiots.

[Coccygia]

1. No, it is not. And no, it is not. You fail to even address my point.

2. ??? This seems to me a non sequitur.

3. That it is "medically necessary" assumes that being "transgender" is a genuine medical condition. I'm not sure it is. (More circular reasoning - yours, that is.) But that's not the point - my point was that if sex and gender (your definition of gender) have no relation, why alter your physical sex to match your gender?

1. Forgive me, but how can I be blamed for failing to address your point if I didn't understand it? Also, I still fail to see how its not a circular argument.

2. Enlighten me on what you don't seem to be getting, and I will enlighten you.

3. See the below. [edited out]

Let's face it, neither one of us is ever going to convince the other of anything. Let's call this off before it gets nasty or someone does a Godwin ("Well, in the Third Reich, Hitler...") I'm bored with this discussion anyway. Have a nice day.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Yeah no.

I love when people say things like, “you need to accept that people have different opinions than you” when it comes to holding people responsible and discussing the institutional consequences of racism, sexism, religious oppression, political justice, homosexuality and transphobia.

Um no, this isn’t some “I like oranges and you like bananas” type of shit. These opinions are harmful and can be rather dangerous. Especially when “opinions” have been the cause of much discrimination, genocide, colonialism, torture, harassment and even resulting in death.

“Opinions” got Trayvon Martin and boys like him killed, they are the reasons many LGBTQ youth kill themselves everyday, they are the reasons why Muslims have to face discrimination, why women weren’t allowed voices until just pretty recently, why the people of Palestine and Syria are suffering, they are why groups like the KKK and Westboro Baptist Church exist.

But hey, it’s just your opinion, right?
I like bananas and you like oranges.

[Grenartia]

1. Forgive me, but how can I be blamed for failing to address your point if I didn't understand it? Also, I still fail to see how its not a circular argument.

2. Enlighten me on what you don't seem to be getting, and I will enlighten you.

3. See the below. [edited out]

Let's face it, neither one of us is ever going to convince the other of anything. Let's call this off before it gets nasty or someone does a Godwin ("Well, in the Third Reich, Hitler...") I'm bored with this discussion anyway. Have a nice day.

I suppose. You as well.

[Haydenish People]

Who cares? Just let them live their lives. The way I see it, intolerance is pointless. It's not accomplishing anything by being homophobic, so why be homophobic. So don't be intolerant of transgender people. They're normal people who just choose to live a different lifestyle than you. What's wrong with that?

[Grenartia]

Who cares? Just let them live their lives. The way I see it, intolerance is pointless. It's not accomplishing anything by being homophobic, so why be homophobic. So don't be intolerant of transgender people. They're normal people who just choose to live a different lifestyle than you. What's wrong with that?

BECAUSE THEY'RE SICK AND WRONG AND GROSS IMMORAL SINNERS AND GAY MEN IN DENIAL AND I DON'T WANT TO FIND OUT THAT I'VE BEEN DATING ONE BECAUSE I'LL HAVE AN ALLERGIC REACTION TO XY COOTIES AND IT'LL MAKE ME SECRETLY GAY AND STUFF!!! [/transphobia in a nutshell]