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[PASSED] Condemn Jakker

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Cormac Stark
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Founded: Apr 11, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Cormac Stark » Wed May 22, 2013 7:23 am

Idantir wrote:If you're referring to the delegate of Furry Federation, his name is Tinis, not Tinnis.

That is all for now.

*Wintermoot goes back to Spiritus to debate this resolution.

I'm opposed. I don't want to say that the above noted spelling error is the reason, but, well, it's kind of the reason. :P

First, I want to make clear that I'm not opposed to this because the target of the condemnation might view it as a badge of honor. I've given that argument a lot of thought over the past few months, and while I can see why it concerns people I don't think it should be a factor. Condemnations are supposed to be a diplomatic tool; the point of passing them isn't, or shouldn't be, to punish the target of the condemnation or to make him feel bad. The goal should be to first inform other regions and nations of the behavior worthy of condemnation and then to collectively condemn it. Condemnations should be about the nations and regions passing them, not the person targeted by them.

Aside from that, from a completely out of character perspective Jakker has made a substantive contribution to his aspect of the game. While in character I'm 100% opposed to his aspect of the game, out of character I can see why he should be permanently recognized for it.

However...

While I don't much care whether the target of the condemnation wants it or not, I do think the perspective of the author is important. If condemnations are supposed to be a diplomatic tool for expressing our collective condemnation of someone's actions, it's less important how the target feels about it but still relatively important how the author views it. If the author doesn't actually disapprove of the actions and is trying to reward the target of the condemnation that's very different than the target himself wanting the condemnation as a reward. I think that may be the case here. SkyDip is a well known advocate of invading in the Security Council and is typically known for trying to block or repeal liberation resolutions. I think the dim view he takes toward native communities and toward the Security Council is well exemplified in his failure to spell the name of Furry Federation's Delegate correctly. Neither the Delegate, the region he represents, nor its history are at all important to him; only the invasion is noteworthy, and the only reason anything about that native community or its Delegate are notable is because of how much juicier they made the invasion and griefing.

TL;DR: I don't much care whether Jakker wants a condemnation badge or not, but I would prefer that his condemnation be authored by someone who actually condemns his behavior and not someone who wants to get his name on the books and give Jakker a shiny. What the target wants is irrelevant but what the author wants to express by drafting a condemnation and what we want to express by voting for it are extremely important. For that reason, opposed.
Last edited by Cormac Stark on Wed May 22, 2013 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Libraria and Ausitoria
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Ex-Nation

Postby Libraria and Ausitoria » Wed May 22, 2013 7:54 am

Given that we suspect Jakker would consider a condemnation as a badge of pride, and given the suspect authorship, we would like to register our abstention.
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Jakker
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Founded: May 17, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Jakker » Wed May 22, 2013 8:06 am

Cormac Stark wrote:
While I don't much care whether the target of the condemnation wants it or not, I do think the perspective of the author is important. If condemnations are supposed to be a diplomatic tool for expressing our collective condemnation of someone's actions, it's less important how the target feels about it but still relatively important how the author views it. If the author doesn't actually disapprove of the actions and is trying to reward the target of the condemnation that's very different than the target himself wanting the condemnation as a reward. I think that may be the case here. SkyDip is a well known advocate of invading in the Security Council and is typically known for trying to block or repeal liberation resolutions. I think the dim view he takes toward native communities and toward the Security Council is well exemplified in his failure to spell the name of Furry Federation's Delegate correctly. Neither the Delegate, the region he represents, nor its history are at all important to him; only the invasion is noteworthy, and the only reason anything about that native community or its Delegate are notable is because of how much juicier they made the invasion and griefing.

TL;DR: I don't much care whether Jakker wants a condemnation badge or not, but I would prefer that his condemnation be authored by someone who actually condemns his behavior and not someone who wants to get his name on the books and give Jakker a shiny. What the target wants is irrelevant but what the author wants to express by drafting a condemnation and what we want to express by voting for it are extremely important. For that reason, opposed.


Uh how funny of a comment, Cormac. If you believe that then I guess the SC should repeal a lot of other resolutions. So you were against Uni's commendation because Mahaj authored it? What about Ananke's commendation by Sedge since Sedge was a defended allied with TITO at the time? Then also Sedge's commendation of Crazy Girl because they are friends? Or Northern Chittowa's commendation by Sedge because both were in the FRA? Or Ballo's commendation written by Mahaj? I'm sure Mahaj was unbiased with that one either. Or what about Codger's commendation written by The Great Destruction, a long term native of Warzone Airspace? Or the most recent commendation of Krulltopia written by Feux, a prominent member of TP?

Face it, your argument has no merit to it whatsoever unless you are also for repealing essentially every condemnation/commendation written before. I'm sure you never thought this when Mahaj wrote Uni's commendation. So your own personal bias and hypocrisy is laughable. While I understand that you're referring to condemnations specifically, my argument is still valid. The important part is if I deserve the condemnation or not and that's how one should vote. Basing your vote on the author is just silly because every author of a SC resolution just wants to give a "shiny badge." And no I do not think commendations and condemnations are different. Both are acknowledging that actions, whether good or bad, should be recognized for one reason or another.
Last edited by Jakker on Wed May 22, 2013 8:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Kaputer
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Postby Kaputer » Wed May 22, 2013 10:00 am

The delegate of Capitalist Paradise rises to support this measure. I remember the invasion of CP well, it was an unwarranted attack on a peaceful region, and disturbed an otherwise calm region. The raid was pointless and mean spirited, and it resulted in disruption of Capitalist Paradises long period of an open RMB for a respectful discussion of issues. It devolved into a place where trolls ruled and everyone but the highest influence nations had to be quiet.

If this condemnation does pass we must however remember that the international community stood idly by and did nothing to help. We were abandoned by everyone else, a failure that should not be forgotten.
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SkyDip
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Postby SkyDip » Wed May 22, 2013 10:32 am

It's a marvel to me that, in my extensive time in the SC, grammatical and spelling errors only come out of the wordwork after the resolution has been submitted, garnered many approvals, etc. I think you're reading into one tiny spelling mistake a little much, Cormac.
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Gordano and Lysandus wrote:SkyDip's actions have, ultimately, destroyed the World Assembly.

Eist wrote:Yea... If you are just going to casually dismiss SkyDip's advice, you are probably not going to get very far at all.

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Cormac Stark
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Postby Cormac Stark » Wed May 22, 2013 12:28 pm

Jakker wrote:<snip>

Commendations and condemnations are entirely different. It makes sense that someone who supports the exemplary behavior of someone else would author a commendation of them, it's unsurprising that the authors of commendations would be close to those they're commending and familiar with their history, and it's entirely appropriate for the Security Council to pass a commendation like the ones you've mentioned because the author isn't being duplicitous about his motives.

Condemnations, on the other hand, should be authored by those who actually condemn the behavior in question. If the Security Council passes a condemnation authored by someone who really approves and wants to reward the target's behavior, the Security Council is granting legitimacy to that kind of duplicitous back patting. I'm 100% okay with you being condemned but not by someone who doesn't really think your behavior is worthy of condemnation and is really trying to reward you -- and himself, with an authorship.

So while I disagree that the commendations you cited should be repealed, I do think there are some condemnations -- Condemn Lone Wolves United springs to mind -- that should be repealed on this basis.

SkyDip wrote:It's a marvel to me that, in my extensive time in the SC, grammatical and spelling errors only come out of the wordwork after the resolution has been submitted, garnered many approvals, etc. I think you're reading into one tiny spelling mistake a little much, Cormac.

I actually did note that you needed to do some proofreading; it's not my job to do the proofreading for you. You of all people should be familiar with my disdain for spelling and grammatical mistakes in resolutions, given that Mahaj's mistake ("swifly") in Liberate Christmas was one of the reasons I cited that Delegates should vote against it. In both cases it might seem like a minor mistake but these resolutions, unless repealed, are going to be permanently enshrined in the Security Council's history. I think we can reasonably expect that they should be well written and the minimum standard for well written resolutions is that spelling and grammatical errors should be absent from them. Maybe I am reading a bit much into the spelling mistake, but I think the least we can expect is for you to spell the native Delegate's name correctly while patting Jakker on the back for overthrowing him and griefing his region.

There may be one other, more significant error in this resolution. Jakker, did you actually lead the operation in Catholic? I was under the impression that operation was led by DEN Central Command with Rawr as lead.

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SkyDip
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Postby SkyDip » Wed May 22, 2013 12:54 pm

My doubts about people reading the thread are confirmed.

Look at the fourth post for the answer to that question, Cormac.
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Gordano and Lysandus wrote:SkyDip's actions have, ultimately, destroyed the World Assembly.

Eist wrote:Yea... If you are just going to casually dismiss SkyDip's advice, you are probably not going to get very far at all.

Sedgistan wrote:SkyDip is trying to help, and is giving sound advice. I'd suggestion listening to him, as he has experience of writing (and advising others with) legal proposals.

Frisbeeteria wrote:What Skydip said. This bitchfest is an embarrassment to the Security Council.

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Eist
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Postby Eist » Wed May 22, 2013 2:32 pm

It's a hard one to spot. It's kind of your responsibility to make sure it's correct, not the readers to proofread it for you.

I'm conflicted as to how I will vote on this, if I will at all. On one hand, Jakker has done pretty well -- for a raider -- in the brief time that he has been around. I say "for a raider" because I believe that recent changes in game mechanics hamper the ability of raiders to do anything truly audacious. It's true that he's led some pretty decent raids, particularly, I think, in Furry Federation, however, a lot of his legacy is from tag raids on pointless regions, and sitting in a region for days and weeks on end with 50 EBIL sheep raiders endorsing him. In my opinion, he doesn't deserve any credit for this. Any monkey could do it. I feel that CoE, Tramiar, *cough* Halcones *cough* have more of a legacy than Jakker, and are arguably more deserving of a condemnation.

This is pretty much guaranteed to pass, and congrats on that, SkyDip; maybe I'll just abstain.
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Jakker
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Founded: May 17, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Jakker » Wed May 22, 2013 4:59 pm

Cormac, while I understand what you're saying, I still disagree with you. If you need your friends to show NS that you do cool things and should be recognized for it, that in itself is somewhat sketchy. The SC itself is flawed. I didn't ask SkyDip to write me a condemnation. But alas, you can have your opinion.

Eist, I agree with you. Tramiar, COE, and even Halc are better raiders than I am now or will ever be and deserve recognition as well. However, I'll have you know that none of my "legacy" is from tag raids. To be honest, I'm not a fan of conducting tag raids and don't do it often. Nothing in the proposal mentions raids that were tags. Personally for me, the new variability has not affected me much. But I see what you're saying. I hope I prove to you my worth and gain some credit from you in due time.

Edit: whoops I lied. Some of the raids regarding taking out the long term delegates were tags, but again I don't do tags often. :p
Last edited by Jakker on Wed May 22, 2013 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Confederate People of the United States
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Postby Confederate People of the United States » Wed May 22, 2013 8:10 pm

Ok, Jakker are you Right or Left wing. I have voted for but you seem like a nice guys so I am withdrwaing my vote until you answer.
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Jakker
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Postby Jakker » Thu May 23, 2013 7:30 am

Confederate People of the United States wrote:Ok, Jakker are you Right or Left wing. I have voted for but you seem like a nice guys so I am withdrwaing my vote until you answer.


Well since I am a Black Hawk, I need both wings. ;)
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Confederate People of the United States
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Postby Confederate People of the United States » Thu May 23, 2013 9:05 am

In that case I won't vote at all.
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The Martian American States
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Postby The Martian American States » Thu May 23, 2013 9:24 am

Why the hell not? For!

Excelsior,
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SkyDip
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Postby SkyDip » Thu May 23, 2013 12:26 pm

Jakker wrote:
Confederate People of the United States wrote:Ok, Jakker are you Right or Left wing. I have voted for but you seem like a nice guys so I am withdrwaing my vote until you answer.


Well since I am a Black Hawk, I need both wings. ;)

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Gordano and Lysandus wrote:SkyDip's actions have, ultimately, destroyed the World Assembly.

Eist wrote:Yea... If you are just going to casually dismiss SkyDip's advice, you are probably not going to get very far at all.

Sedgistan wrote:SkyDip is trying to help, and is giving sound advice. I'd suggestion listening to him, as he has experience of writing (and advising others with) legal proposals.

Frisbeeteria wrote:What Skydip said. This bitchfest is an embarrassment to the Security Council.

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Confederate People of the United States
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Postby Confederate People of the United States » Thu May 23, 2013 12:31 pm

Me too.
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The Pan-Slavian Union wrote: Give a shotgun to a Gay, and he'll eventually find some way to masturbate with it. Give a shotgun to a Russian, and he'll defend his country.
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Nicktopia (Ancient)
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Condemn Jakker

Postby Nicktopia (Ancient) » Fri May 24, 2013 4:15 am

"This guy must be stopped. I tried to telegram him but it said his country does not exist. I say he is hiding his country from us so we cannot find him. This may turn into something we don't want to do, nuclear war. I will do anything to stop him."

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Nicktopia (Ancient)
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Condemn Jakker

Postby Nicktopia (Ancient) » Fri May 24, 2013 4:50 am

"The TBH does not deserve what happened to them. I am with them at this time in the world. I will send my military to attemp to find this lunatic. If they fail to succeed I apoligise. My military is not very large at the time, but if they succeed I will do anything I can to help the TBH recover from what has hapenned over time."

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SkyDip
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Postby SkyDip » Fri May 24, 2013 4:58 am

Nicktopia wrote:"The TBH does not deserve what happened to them. I am with them at this time in the world. I will send my military to attemp to find this lunatic. If they fail to succeed I apoligise. My military is not very large at the time, but if they succeed I will do anything I can to help the TBH recover from what has hapenned over time."

If you're not here to discuss the proposal, take your RP elsewhere, please. You're not adding to the proposal or arguments therein.
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Gordano and Lysandus wrote:SkyDip's actions have, ultimately, destroyed the World Assembly.

Eist wrote:Yea... If you are just going to casually dismiss SkyDip's advice, you are probably not going to get very far at all.

Sedgistan wrote:SkyDip is trying to help, and is giving sound advice. I'd suggestion listening to him, as he has experience of writing (and advising others with) legal proposals.

Frisbeeteria wrote:What Skydip said. This bitchfest is an embarrassment to the Security Council.

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B Wolf
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Ex-Nation

Postby B Wolf » Fri May 24, 2013 10:25 pm

Cormac is a fool trying to stir it up this late in the game, Jakker has this condemnation on lock.

If you wanted to seize on him, should have hit the updates harder Cormac. You gonna get your licks in now with a 7,000+ deficit? I know you roll UDL, but even you should be able to do the math on that one.

Jakker famous cause he calls out and then balls out, son. You don't got those moves.

You nothing but jawing while a giant 9,000+ approved condemnation is about to roll over and crush your little head.

Take it to the update Cormac. I hope you ain't skipping out on lunch money to pay for those stamps by the way, cause those telegrams are weak.
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Feux
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Postby Feux » Fri May 24, 2013 10:37 pm

I actually did note that you needed to do some proofreading; it's not my job to do the proofreading for you. You of all people should be familiar with my disdain for spelling and grammatical mistakes in resolutions, given that Mahaj's mistake ("swifly") in Liberate Christmas was one of the reasons I cited that Delegates should vote against it. In both cases it might seem like a minor mistake but these resolutions, unless repealed, are going to be permanently enshrined in the Security Council's history. I think we can reasonably expect that they should be well written and the minimum standard for well written resolutions is that spelling and grammatical errors should be absent from them. Maybe I am reading a bit much into the spelling mistake, but I think the least we can expect is for you to spell the native Delegate's name correctly while patting Jakker on the back for overthrowing him and griefing his region.


While I understand your point Cormac... * Looks at voting results * ... I don't think SkyDip has to give a shit at this point.
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Karpathos
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Postby Karpathos » Sat May 25, 2013 5:30 am

B Wolf wrote:Cormac is a fool trying to stir it up this late in the game, Jakker has this condemnation on lock.

If you wanted to seize on him, should have hit the updates harder Cormac. You gonna get your licks in now with a 7,000+ deficit? I know you roll UDL, but even you should be able to do the math on that one.

Jakker famous cause he calls out and then balls out, son. You don't got those moves.

You nothing but jawing while a giant 9,000+ approved condemnation is about to roll over and crush your little head.

Take it to the update Cormac. I hope you ain't skipping out on lunch money to pay for those stamps by the way, cause those telegrams are weak.



:clap:

Looks like someone is going to need some preperation H....
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SkyDip
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Ex-Nation

Postby SkyDip » Sat May 25, 2013 5:52 am

B Wolf wrote:<snip>

:unsure: Did Cormac send out some "vote against" telegrams or what?
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Gordano and Lysandus wrote:SkyDip's actions have, ultimately, destroyed the World Assembly.

Eist wrote:Yea... If you are just going to casually dismiss SkyDip's advice, you are probably not going to get very far at all.

Sedgistan wrote:SkyDip is trying to help, and is giving sound advice. I'd suggestion listening to him, as he has experience of writing (and advising others with) legal proposals.

Frisbeeteria wrote:What Skydip said. This bitchfest is an embarrassment to the Security Council.

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Singpu
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Ex-Nation

Postby Singpu » Sat May 25, 2013 8:53 am

7 minutes until it PASSES!
http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=9230172#p9230172

Singpu wrote...
:o
Utceforp wrote:
Singpu wrote:Utceforp, can ezungal go ahead and go to girls? Also, sorry if my sleeping is off and reading noticeably, eye doctor dialatsted my eyes so...

I'm sorry, but I can't tell what you're saying...

Translation: utceforp, can ezungal go ahead and goto Farla? Also, sorry if my typing and reading is off noticeably, my eye doctor dialated my eyes, so...

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?ns=1&f=23&t=338724

Liberal|Pro-Capitalism|Pro Homosexual Marriage|

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Singpu
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[PASSED]

Postby Singpu » Sat May 25, 2013 9:00 am

IT'S PASSED!
http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=9230172#p9230172

Singpu wrote...
:o
Utceforp wrote:
Singpu wrote:Utceforp, can ezungal go ahead and go to girls? Also, sorry if my sleeping is off and reading noticeably, eye doctor dialatsted my eyes so...

I'm sorry, but I can't tell what you're saying...

Translation: utceforp, can ezungal go ahead and goto Farla? Also, sorry if my typing and reading is off noticeably, my eye doctor dialated my eyes, so...

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?ns=1&f=23&t=338724

Liberal|Pro-Capitalism|Pro Homosexual Marriage|

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SkyDip
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Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby SkyDip » Sat May 25, 2013 9:01 am

Condemn Jakker was passed 9,863 votes to 2,111.

Thank you to all supporting WA members.
Elias Thaddeus Greyjoy, WA Ambassador of SkyDip
Read my Guide to the Security Council, a comprehensive collection of history, tactics, and tips for the Security Council!


Gordano and Lysandus wrote:SkyDip's actions have, ultimately, destroyed the World Assembly.

Eist wrote:Yea... If you are just going to casually dismiss SkyDip's advice, you are probably not going to get very far at all.

Sedgistan wrote:SkyDip is trying to help, and is giving sound advice. I'd suggestion listening to him, as he has experience of writing (and advising others with) legal proposals.

Frisbeeteria wrote:What Skydip said. This bitchfest is an embarrassment to the Security Council.

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