USE OTHER THREAD: Condemn Grub

[Goobergunchia]

This thread was used for the discussion of "Condemn Grub" when at proposal stage. For debate during the voting stage, see AT VOTE: Condemn Grub. Thanks! --Goob

I see that a proposal has reached quorum without being called for debate in this forum. Therefore, I call up "Condemn Grub" for discussion.

Condemn Grub

A resolution to express shock and dismay at a nation or region.


Category: Condemnation
Nominee: Grub
Proposed by: Daynor

Description:
The World Assembly,

DEFINING a region crasher as a nation which attacks a region with the intent to utterly destroy the community,

ASSERTING that region crashing is not only a threat to the natives of the region, but also to those raiders who do not crash regions, because it eliminates one founderless region from the game,

DEFINING an empire builder as a nation who attacks a region in order to plant its own region’s name on the World Factbook Entry of the target region,

ASSERTING that empire builders embarrass and harass the natives of a region, and often end up crashing the target region,

NOTING that Grub behaved as both a region crasher and an empire builder while carrying out the abominations in Empire of Power,

SHOCKED that Grub attacked and destroyed the region Empire of Power because of a personal grudge,

OUTRAGED that Empire of Power, a region with over 175 members, was destroyed by such cruel and unjust practices,

HORRIFIED that Grub has held Empire of Power prisoner for over six years,

SICKENED by the bragging and gloating present on the Regional Message Board and World Factbook Entry designed to harass and torment the former natives,

ANGERED that Grub has created an army of ‘defenders’ to prevent others from committing the same atrocities the nation of Grub has committed,

RECOGNIZING that by creating this army, Grub is admitting the monstrous offenses committed in Empire of Power were undoubtedly wrong,

OBSERVING that Grub has done nothing to atone for its actions, or remedy the situation by giving the region back to its former natives,

CONDEMNS the nation of Grub for its part in the wicked destruction and immoral occupation of Empire of Power.

Approvals: 60 (Reseda Island, Aegara, The Imperial Combine, Milenos, Heaven Hieghts, Skyrise, Karienna, Incredible indians, Rainbow Isles, Aidou Hanabusa, Shwaasburg, Napoleon Crunch, DanTecya, Grittonia, Tina Fey, Ghost snake, The Anean Star Empire, Rigbyland, Kershnertopia, Epicnopolis, U Uncia, China-East Asia, FASTERCAT, Malakian Principality, Egotistical Wolves, DiCinnoa, BocaRatones, Transyldonia, Bryce the toy maker, Asyhlo AO, Ellacora, Right Wing Politics, William IX, Licentia pro rus ruris, Wroclow, Zolaistan, Urcea, Aquamarine, Saint Charles East, Akeroyd, South chw, Griffin Somerset, Joobie, Greculandia, Caesica, Daswaniland, Lietvos, Sionis Prioratus, Horrifica, Smetistan, Pengu States, Birminghamia, Gavette, Ambracia, Verband, The Phoenixian Empire, Zutroy, Aarbearica, Krankor, The Minor Countries)

Status: Quorum Reached: In Queue!

I would like to first take exception to the definition of "region crashing". This term is frequently used as a general description of regional invasions. The Game FAQ defines "region crashing" as "where a group of nations all move to a region with the aim of seizing the WA Delegate position".

I further note that the allegations contained in the proposal deserve a clarification. I am currently examining our historical records, but I have not yet found an account relative to the takeover of Empire of Power. If I do, I will revise this statement to link to the same.

I will note that in the applicable time period, it was against game rules for a Delegate to eject all nations from a region. Hence, it would have been impossible for Grub to "attack and destroy" Empire of Power unless the region was already vacant -- an action more properly characterized as "refounding". I can assure all nations that there would have been multiple reports to the moderators (and likely action) if an actual griefing had occurred.

For reference, Network Radio had the following reports about the initial attack on 10000 Islands.

• Jerome Hawkins: War at 10000 Islands
• Jerome Hawkins: Statement about 1000 Islands
• Jerome Hawkins: 10000 Islands gives a statement

I do not believe that the refounding of a hostile region merits a condemnation. Therefore, I will be voting against this proposal should it come to the floor, and urge an "AGAINST" vote on the same.

However, I also do not believe that the Security Council wishes to hear yet another debate about the merits of the 10000 Islands. I think many of us would appreciate it if Delegates were to withdraw their approvals of this proposal.

Goobergunchia
Nasicournian Officer
Advisor, Alliance Defense Network (ret.)

[Kalibarr]

In the name of WA neutrality(in raider/defender affairs) I say this is raider biased and should be voted against. Just because I don't think defending should be commended doesn't mean it should be condemned. Also the main reason listed is repeated over and over and over again and there is no proof of what happened as I was not around when the old empire of power existed so I simply see a small region that was founded by Grub not some evil imperialist. No one can deny that this is just an attempt by pro-raiders to bash a well known defender.

[Wutaco]

Finally, someone cracks down on TITO. They are the exact same as us, except they claim its for good. That is the equivilent of "Killing for Life". They are dangerous, more so than raiders.

[Unibotian WASC Mission]

What did Grub do in the Empire of Power? He must of done something... 'cause this isn't the only proposal in the queue about the subject...

Liberate Empire of Power
A resolution to strike down Delegate-imposed barriers to free entry in a region


Category: Liberation | Nominee (region): Empire of Power | Proposed by: Afforess

Description: The World Assembled,

I humbly present to you the case of the Empire of Power,

The Empire was once a great region, with over 175 members until 10000 Islands launched a vendetta against them, seeking to use their military might and superior nations to crush Empire of Power.

On the RMB, untouched by the passage of time, Grub, the founder of 10000 Islands praises his victory, and scorns the enemy.

The World Assembly, let today be the day we release the Empire of Power from it's 5 years of shackles, and let it see the glorious light, once again.

Approvals: 36 (FASTERCAT, Bergnovinaia, Aequilibria, William IX, U Uncia, Alchia, ROMPA, Whapalapaluba, Reseda Island, Licentia pro rus ruris, Old Zertaxia, Karienna, Tyrrin, Kleinekatzen, Kingsley Bedford, Yensidretlaw, Krankor, Rainbow Isles, Pladrania, New Portage, Smetistan, B1ack Magic, Extre, Oh my Days, New Gilboa, Koningsbergen, East Hylia, Varazhdin, Lesser Whiteside, Epicnopolis, Syranistan, Aegara, Freedomstaki, The Anean Star Empire, Lanniganovia, Kanye Omarii West)

Status: Lacking Support (requires 17 more approvals)

[Wutaco]

He didnt just attack EoP, he destroyed them. They had an active community of 175 people before Grub and his hoardes raided and crushed them, all because of a raid that happened a year before that. He is a tyrant, and must be condemned.

[Neasmyrna]

He didnt just attack EoP, he destroyed them. They had an active community of 175 people before Grub and his hoardes raided and crushed them, all because of a raid that happened a year before that. He is a tyrant, and must be condemned.

LOL

WTH seriously?

hoardes of raiders?

A year following the invasion EoP was (as is referred to on the EoP RMB) "a desolate wasteland."

Although 10KI is one of the largest regions in the game now... it was a small nothing back in the day.

[Unibotian WASC Mission]

October 19, 2004...

*****Empire of Power Annexed Into The 10000 Islands*****

It is with my great pleasure that I announce today that the 10000 Islands has annexed its first region. From this day forward, the Empire of Power will be an official state of the 10000 Islands and will be under complete authority of the 10000 Islands.

When TITO troops arrived this morning, there were just tumble weeds and empty shells of buildings. The only thing powerful about this region was the smell, but in my first act as ruler of the Empire of Power, I have sent in a special team of cleaners and rebuilders into this once loathed region.

For a brief history of the Empire of Power, they were the region that saw an easy mark in the then 15 nation region of the 10000 Islands. With the help of a nation known as New Boniventure, the 10000 Islands was alerted to the Empire of Power attack. From there, the call for help was put out to many, many regions. Some regions answered our call that night and came to help. Most of those defenders that night came from the Urbanites, Texas, the Rejected Realms and others.

After the defeat of the Empire of Power, it became the goal of TITO not only to defend the shores of the 10000 Islands, but to also help other regions unjustly attacked. To date, we have defended over 175 regions. The Empire of Power, after multiple losses to TITO and other defenders, finally packed their bags and surrendered to the overwhelming truth that invaders will never succeed for long.

As I stand in the throne room of the Empire of Power, I see some scribbling -- "Mattattonn, Frenchie, and Mikeoasia were here." Let the Empire of Power be an everlasting testament to the fact that invaders will always lose in the end.

Our memories are long and our cause is great. Long live freedom, long live the 10000 Islands and long live the first state of the 10000 Islands, the Empire of Power!

Grub
Founder - 10000 Islands
New Founder - Empire of Power

*****Empire of Power Annexed Into The 10000 Islands*****

[Unibotian WASC Mission]

Without knowing too much on the subject, It looks to me as if a Liberation proposal is needed more than the condemnation.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Neasmyrna]

Without knowing too much on the subject, It looks to me as if a Liberation proposal is needed more than the condemnation.

Just my 2 cents worth.

A liberation proposal would do nothing really as Grub is the founder of the region.

[Gilnas]

Also yeah, we need to consider back then Region Crashing was against the TOS. Therefore the entire house of cards on this argument comes crashing down, as I don't think Grub would break game rules over this, he's no fool.

[Martyrdoom]

Without knowing too much on the subject, It looks to me as if a Liberation proposal is needed more than the condemnation.

Just my 2 cents worth.

A liberation proposal would do nothing really as Grub is the founder of the region.

Well, the password is preventing free-entry. Defenders don't usually like regions locked down: what's changed?!

[Kalibarr]

Also liberations don't lift founder imposed passwords only those imposed by delegates.

[Martyrdoom]

Also liberations don't lift founder imposed passwords only those imposed by delegates.

You can pre-empt them (I believe at any rate)

[Neasmyrna]

Also liberations don't lift founder imposed passwords only those imposed by delegates.

yeah, i hadn't heard of that before (but hadn't heard otherwise either)...

Well in this case free-entry would mean invaders spamming the RMB--and in reality no one has cared about this region being "taken over" for the last 4-5 years if you didn't notice...

[Kalibarr]

grub would simply eject and ban anyone anyway so it's useless.

[Mad Sheep Railgun]

Ho hum. Raider vs. Defender soap opera.

Opposed.

[Danielturner]

The proposal is gear towards the raiders of Nation states. The WA has a responsibility to remain neutral. This is not a neutral proposal. The language of the proposal is false. Grub is not a region crasher. He is a DEFENDER and the raiders of the game are condemning him for what they do. AGAINST.

[Wutaco]

Its definatley a good counter-balance to the condemnation of Macedon, which was extremely defender biased. Approved.

[Lyncaenia]

A liberation proposal would do nothing really as Grub is the founder of the region.

Oh good one! The laugh of the day. Empire of Power was a region just like any other, nearing 200 members. They did something to piss off Grub and TITO....who then came in and 'DEFENDED' them, locked down the region, and refounded it.

When Feudal Japan was being "liberated" Defenders said it was "griefing" to go into a region, password lock it, take it from it's natives and founder, and keep it as a colony. Raider/invaders were drug through the dirt as the immoral scum of the earth for keeping Feudal Japan for ... two years I believe (sorry that's by memory it might be longer). I point out that raiders will tell you to your face that we are going to come to your region and try to take it for at least one day--and it is legal to do so according to the NS game rules. But for SIX YEARS Defenders have done the exact thing they accuse us of and moreso. The natives have wanted this region back for six years!! And what's worse, Defenders claim the moral high ground to your face and "say" that they are keeping nations free by defending them--while behind your back they do the exact thing they so vehemently say is "immoral."

Soooo... which is it. Is it immoral to go into a region, password lock it, take it from it's natives and founder, and keep it as a colony? Then the same applies to raider and defender alike! If Feudal Japan was unlocked and "liberated" then Empire of Power should be too! Furthermore, here we are as raiders arguing this know full well that this will not be a raid target with an active refounder!! Hmmmm... defenders SAY they're moral, lie to your face ,and lock down a region for six years while liberating another so they can get in there and lock it down for themselves--raiders say we'll raid you to your face, try to raid you, if we win by good strategy we may or may not keep it, and we're arguing for the liberation of a region we know we will not be able to raid.

Which one is "moral" again? I'm confused....

******************************************************
Allow me to quote an outspoken defender for the reason why EoP should be set free:

".., to give regions which were invaded & passworded a second chance at being freed. ...It meant that it was no longer 'game over' in <Empire of Power> - it was 'game on', and the natives won.

... its the original residents who will have their region back (the people who spent years building up the region), not the person who was responsible for destroying the region and then gloating about its destruction on the RMB."

http://clip2net.com/page/m0/2366765

I refer you to this screen shot of gloating about 4 years of capture--and that was 820 days ago!! For more than six years this region has been griefed and no one has stood up to set it free. For more than six years the original natives of Empire of Power have asked to have their region released (and very politely I might add).

The proposal in it's current format may not pass but that will not change the facts that this region should be set free.

[Lyncaenia]

The proposal is gear towards the raiders of Nation states. The WA has a responsibility to remain neutral. This is not a neutral proposal. The language of the proposal is false. Grub is not a region crasher. He is a DEFENDER and the raiders of the game are condemning him for what they do. AGAINST.

Empire of Power was a thriving region. They pissed off Grub. He did crash their region, password lock it, kill the founder and many natives against their will, refuse to allow them back into their region, and refounded it to keep them out for SIX YEARS.

HOW is that "defending"? No one but Grub was raiding or invading this region, so who is he "defending" against for six years? If its "immoral" for raiders to go to a region legally and win, password lock it, kill the founder and many natives against their will, refuse to allow them back into their region, and refounded it to keep it--it is ALSO "immoral" for a defender to do so.

[Ananke]

A liberation proposal would do nothing really as Grub is the founder of the region.

Oh good one! The laugh of the day. Empire of Power was a region just like any other, nearing 200 members. They did something to piss off Grub and TITO....who then came in and 'DEFENDED' them, locked down the region, and refounded it.

That's just not true. Empire or Power, like most raider regions in Nationstates, started crumbling after defenders had been stopping most of their invasions for a couple of years. Grub refounded the region after the last native CTE'd and the region itself stopped existing to remind people that griefing and/or invading other peoples' region just isn't cool.

Btw. isn't it about time some other region got their time in the sun? I have to admit that I'm getting a bit weary of reporting drive by spammers in 10000 Islands...

[Neasmyrna]

A liberation proposal would do nothing really as Grub is the founder of the region.

Oh good one! The laugh of the day. Empire of Power was a region just like any other, nearing 200 members. They did something to piss off Grub and TITO....who then came in and 'DEFENDED' them, locked down the region, and refounded it.

I hate to be rude...

But do you have a ears or eyes?

next time someone attacks your region and almost kills you let me know... and I assure you I won't have a problem with you attacking back.

Because "someone hurt your feelings"

or you see a plump region with no founder and you "want it"

is not a reason to invade someone ( and that is why Belgium was invaded... why FJ was invaded... why invader invade 99.99% of the time)...

fighting back to the end against someone who almost destroyed you is not evil or cruel or un-called for.

It wasn't like EoP was minding its own business... please remember 10KI had 15 nations when this region attacked. By the time 10KI was able to avenge themselves or whatever you want to call it it was a whole year later... and 10KI was a little bigger... and EoP was dead.

Grub didn't have a hoard of people following him around waiting for invaders to come and attack so he could go and destroy their region...

[Goobergunchia]

I've updated the initial post to clarify that Empire of Power was not griefed in any reasonable sense of the word. In 2004, the now-obsolete Invasion Ruleset was in full force and it was illegal for any Delegate to use his/her powers to eject all nations from a region.

Goobergunchia
Nasicournian Officer
Advisor, Alliance Defense Network (ret.)

[Daynor]

I am shocked at the telegrams I am getting. I would never have assumed that I would make quorum, let alone recieve the level of support I have.

When I got home today, I had 20 telegrams in my inbox, only two disagreed with me, three didn't like C/C's and the reast were in agreement with me! (I'm not sure if I had more telegrams that were bumped out of the inbox or if I just happened to get the exact maximum.

I did have three delegates tell me they would support (approve) but they are "afraid" of TITO, though two were in founder regions...

Anyway, thank you everyone for your support. I might make my own AT VOTE thread, I'm considering a little more detail in the OP. If I do I'll be sure to post on here for a mod NOT to move this one.

[Ardchoille]

Just a clarification for the "I vote against" posters: you don't have to vote against it yet, because it's not At Vote.

Persuade your Delegate to withdraw his approval, if he's already approved; or lock him in a cellar so he can't approve, and you've stymied it before it even gets to a vote.

EDIT: Damn, didn't see Daynor's post. This post isn't intended to be pro- or anti- the proposal, I'm just trying to point out practicalities before everyone gets their knickers in a needless knot.