NATION

PASSWORD

[PASSED] Condemn 'True North'

A carefully preserved record of the most notable World Assembly debates.
User avatar
Delegate Vinage
Envoy
 
Posts: 305
Founded: Jan 21, 2012
Ex-Nation

[PASSED] Condemn 'True North'

Postby Delegate Vinage » Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:05 am

Condemn "True North"

Category: Condemnation | Nominee: True North | Proposed By: Delegate Vinage



Description: The Security Council,

NOTING, the region's high population has been achieved through 'puppet flooding' nations into the region.

DISAPPOINTED, that regions committed to either recruiting new nations to their own region or welcoming new nations that join the Pacifics have been pushed down population rankings due to the actions of said region.

BELIEVING that the sheer number of puppet states negatively affects the world and can hamper other nations attempting to travel with speed.

THEREFORE, punishing the region that has committed the above offence the most as a note that the Security Council disagrees with these actions.

HEREBY, condemns True North




First draft as composed with a few others, honestly I am not too sure on the legality of some of the clauses and this might be pushing the R4 just a little bit too much - let me know if that's the case!

Thoughts, opinions, areas to improve on?
Last edited by Sedgistan on Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:20 am, edited 12 times in total.
Vinage V. Grey-Anumia
World Assembly Delegate &
Former President of Europeia


"The Delegate Wipes What The Region Spills"
"Between two groups of people who want to make inconsistent kinds of worlds, I see no remedy but force"

User avatar
Cormac Stark
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1417
Founded: Apr 11, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Cormac Stark » Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:21 am

Delegate Vinage wrote:BELIEVING that the sheer number of puppet states negatively affects the world and can hamper other nations attempting to travel with speed.

To me, it looks like you've managed to comply with R4 here but you'll probably want input from people who have been at this longer. "Puppet states" is definitely legal. My concern would be with nations traveling; however, the game indicates when we move to another region that our nations are transported by helicopters so I think this might actually be ok.

In regard to the overall proposal, I'm not sure I can agree that a region should be condemned merely for puppet flooding. I think the third clause, cited above, probably makes the strongest case but I think you would need some kind of technical evidence that this is having some kind of significant detrimental impact on the game. I'm also concerned that once we set this precedent it will be used to carry out R/D grudge matches; I can literally see Condemn Kyzikos, Condemn Epogennick, Condemn Munster, etc.

User avatar
Unibot III
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5809
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:42 am

Honestly: congrats to True North, that's a lot of puppets!
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008 | Former Delegate of The Rejected Realms | Gameplay Alignment: -18 / -13
Unibotian Factbook // An Analysis of NationStates Generations // The Gameplay Alignment Test // NS Weather // How do I join the UDL? // The Transpacific Trade
Paradise Found // The Unibotian Life Expectancy Index // Proudly Authored 9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Commended by SC#78 // The Polysemes of Nativeness;

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
✯ Duty is Eternal, Justice is Imminent: UDL

User avatar
Kingborough
Diplomat
 
Posts: 567
Founded: Jun 22, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Kingborough » Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:55 am

To throw my two cents worth into the ring, I have to say nothing or a commendation for the effort would be more appropriate really. It's a big job making those puppets.
Founder of Nysa

User avatar
Jamie Anumia
Senator
 
Posts: 3797
Founded: Feb 15, 2012
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Jamie Anumia » Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:03 am

I'm doubtful in the term 'puppet flooding' being legal, since it's quite commonly a moderation issue since it's most likely a Rule 4 violation.
Last edited by Jamie Anumia on Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Welsh Cowboy
Minister
 
Posts: 2340
Founded: Dec 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Welsh Cowboy » Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:43 am

For full disclosure, I'm the player behind The Colony Master, who has helped with this project, although I'm not the one behind it.

Honestly, I don't see why we would be condemned for playing a legal part of the game, albeit one that almost no one does. The rules allow us to create as many puppets as we want, so we do. I see it very similarly to raiding and defending. The rules allow people to move in and out of regions and take WA delegate positions, so the R/D community has created a subgame of NS that wasn't initially intended and most people don't participate in. And should that whole community be condemned for making the WA page lag with so much switching and applying? Also, I'd note that Kyzikos and Epogennick are very large puppet storage regions too.

If people don't like that we are playing a legal part of the game, then I think this would be something to be discussed as a technical change. But to condemn us? It seems unfounded.
Champions, 53rd Baptism of Fire

User avatar
Communist Eraser
Diplomat
 
Posts: 547
Founded: Dec 31, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Communist Eraser » Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:24 am

Every commend and condemn has been for something that is legal in the game, otherwise the thing couldn't exist in the first place.

C&Cs are all about things we like or dislike despite being legal.
EASTERN EUROPE: The MELTING POT OF IDEOLOGIES
An Libertarian Socialist Peacezone. Four Principles of Peacezone Theory


User avatar
Welsh Cowboy
Minister
 
Posts: 2340
Founded: Dec 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Welsh Cowboy » Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:28 am

Communist Eraser wrote:Every commend and condemn has been for something that is legal in the game, otherwise the thing couldn't exist in the first place.

C&Cs are all about things we like or dislike despite being legal.


I suppose that's a good point, but unless these server lag issues are proven true, the only basis for this is that we're playing a part of the game proficiently.

Why not condemn good raiding or defending groups for playing their subgame proficiently?
Champions, 53rd Baptism of Fire

User avatar
Frattastan
Diplomat
 
Posts: 700
Founded: Oct 24, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Frattastan » Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:33 am

Probably you could find a better term than 'puppet flooding'.

As a side note, illegal actions can be mentioned in SC resolutions (from the Compendium: "It is possible to mention these actions in a resolution, provided it's done to complement moderator action, rather than as an alternative to it").
San Francisco Bay Area (forum) | Founderless Regions Alliance (FRA) | Rejected Realms Army (RRA)

Drop Your Pants wrote:I think raiders are cute, the way they think they're big and scary people who threaten others :)

User avatar
Cerian Quilor
Senator
 
Posts: 3841
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Cerian Quilor » Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:38 am

Because its puppet whoring.
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

The Thing to Remember About NationStates is that it is an almost entirely social game - fundamentally, you have no power beyond your own ability to convince people to go along with your ideas. In that sense, even the most dictatorial region is fundamentally democratic.

User avatar
Anime Daisuki
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 464
Founded: Feb 21, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby Anime Daisuki » Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:58 am

This practice has been going around for some time, beginning with Eastern Roman Empire's maintenance of a fake 300 nation margin to get into top 10 back in 2006. Now the practice is getting from bad to ridiculous. Thousands of nations stored in regions like True North and Galapagos, it is not just crazy and mind blowing, it is also unfair to the other regions that recruit to climb the size rankings. Not to mention, moving a few thousand nations around within a short period of time (as had happened when they moved to Galapagos) could cause the game to slow down for the rest of us.

@Vinage: In addition to the issues you listed which are more from the macro perspective (since they pertain to gameplay and regional rankings), on a national level, these puppet nations also affect the daily nation rankings-- making our daily rankings less accurate than they would have been. Regardless whether you add this or not, the condemn would have my support, FOR.

User avatar
Icamera
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1312
Founded: Apr 21, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Icamera » Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:02 am

As a hardcore recruiter myself, I can't say I disagree with you about getting seriously annoyed when every new nation I telegram changes their flag seconds after being created and moves into True North another few seconds later. But I'm still not so sure if this is condemnation-worthy.
Senator of The Allied Republics
ICK-uh-MARE-uh (It's an anagram of America, not an Apple product)
(See here for all)
Rynatia wrote:If I asked you to sleep with me would you answer with the same answer to this question?

User avatar
Ivory Rhodes
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 42
Founded: Nov 17, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Ivory Rhodes » Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:04 am

Why dont we just raid them...? Plus, this will have no effect on them. They are not part of the World Assembly.

User avatar
Welsh Cowboy
Minister
 
Posts: 2340
Founded: Dec 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Welsh Cowboy » Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:04 am

Why is it wrong when we move our nations to the region we want to move them to, but it's okay for raiders and defenders to do the same thing, not only in the regions they invade and defend, but in their own puppet regions like Epogennick and Kyzikos?
Champions, 53rd Baptism of Fire

User avatar
Jamie Anumia
Senator
 
Posts: 3797
Founded: Feb 15, 2012
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Jamie Anumia » Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:05 am

Ivory Rhodes wrote:Why dont we just raid them...? Plus, this will have no effect on them. They are not part of the World Assembly.

Non-executive delegate (though you could take the delegacy technically..but no-one could do anything). Also, a region can't be a member of the WA and nations do not have to be WA to be condemned or commended.
Last edited by Jamie Anumia on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:08 am, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Crazy girl
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 4681
Founded: Antiquity
Mother Knows Best State

Postby Crazy girl » Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:26 am

I would definitely scratch "game created regions", that's a rule 4 violation.

User avatar
Cerian Quilor
Senator
 
Posts: 3841
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Cerian Quilor » Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:21 am

Welsh Cowboy wrote:Why is it wrong when we move our nations to the region we want to move them to, but it's okay for raiders and defenders to do the same thing, not only in the regions they invade and defend, but in their own puppet regions like Epogennick and Kyzikos?

Those aren't 'Raider/defender' puppet regions. They're jumping points.
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

The Thing to Remember About NationStates is that it is an almost entirely social game - fundamentally, you have no power beyond your own ability to convince people to go along with your ideas. In that sense, even the most dictatorial region is fundamentally democratic.

User avatar
Delegate Vinage
Envoy
 
Posts: 305
Founded: Jan 21, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Delegate Vinage » Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:43 am

Crazy girl wrote:I would definitely scratch "game created regions", that's a rule 4 violation.


There was me thinking that was the only part of it that was legal :P

Cheers for the heads up!

Difference between those on the R/D side of things and this 'project' - we* don't maintain 5,000+. Personally I would raise an eyebrow at 100+ active nations being maintained. That said I don't know the typical number of nations that a 'hardcore' player of that side of the game would maintain. For me it was 3 at the most.

*We meaning those who partake in that side of the game. I have previously and so have some of those who have posted in this thread
Vinage V. Grey-Anumia
World Assembly Delegate &
Former President of Europeia


"The Delegate Wipes What The Region Spills"
"Between two groups of people who want to make inconsistent kinds of worlds, I see no remedy but force"

User avatar
Globocom Enterprises
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 125
Founded: Oct 01, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Globocom Enterprises » Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:48 am

Puppet Flooding is the future!

User avatar
Lyanna Stark
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 480
Founded: Dec 18, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Lyanna Stark » Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:00 am

Delegate Vinage wrote:
Crazy girl wrote:I would definitely scratch "game created regions", that's a rule 4 violation.


There was me thinking that was the only part of it that was legal :P

Cheers for the heads up!

Difference between those on the R/D side of things and this 'project' - we* don't maintain 5,000+. Personally I would raise an eyebrow at 100+ active nations being maintained. That said I don't know the typical number of nations that a 'hardcore' player of that side of the game would maintain. For me it was 3 at the most.

*We meaning those who partake in that side of the game. I have previously and so have some of those who have posted in this thread


I have 114, but that's more because I -like- to have those puppets rather than actual need. I've used up to 27ish puppets in an update though when detagging and around 5-15 if my web is working decent and I'm awake for defending. So they are needed in that case.

Personally I think that this isn't worth a Condemn, though the region is rather annoying. I'd probably personaly abstain, if this nation was WA.
-Lyanna Stark
Sepatarch, Admin, and Vizier of Culture of Osiris
Former Pharaoh (Delegate) of Osiris
♥ Earth Marlowe-Locksley ♥

"Only one man in a thousand is a leader of men. The other 999 follow women." -Groucho Marx
Unibot: "I've turned you into a defender chick and you've turned me into a respectable human being!"
[11:12pm]Mahaj: omg i have earth's endo
[11:12pm] Mahaj: this is the proudest moment of my defending career

User avatar
Firstaria
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8406
Founded: Jun 29, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Firstaria » Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:02 am

I think I will support this condemnation. Puppet states are an instrument that should be available in the current meta-game setting, but just filling a region with puppets to score a number is stupid and damages the server speed.

A puppet should have a reason to exist, not being a number and period, you are also killing names that could be used in future by other users. So the practice must be condemned or stopped at least.
OVERLORD Daniel Mercury of Firstaria
Original Author of SC #5 and SC #30

User avatar
Paper Flowers
Diplomat
 
Posts: 712
Founded: Nov 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Paper Flowers » Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:37 am

Firstaria wrote:I think I will support this condemnation. Puppet states are an instrument that should be available in the current meta-game setting, but just filling a region with puppets to score a number is stupid and damages the server speed.

A puppet should have a reason to exist, not being a number and period, you are also killing names that could be used in future by other users. So the practice must be condemned or stopped at least.


Maybe I've missed it, but where has anyone involved in True North said that they're doing it "to score a number"? The only people I've seen that have tagged it as that are the ones calling for a condemnation.
Liam. A. Saunders - Paper Flowers Ambassador to the World Assembly.

Factbook (under construction - last update 14th November 2012)
Current Affairs - Ambassador Walkers disappearance remains a mystery, Ambassador Saunders promoted in his place.

User avatar
Topdop
Attaché
 
Posts: 95
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Topdop » Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:41 am

I think that a thread in Technical would be more appropriate than a condemnation for this. I can't fathom any way that someone could be keeping all of these puppets alive without a script, and that's bullshit.
Topdop (A mean old man)
Delegate of The East Pacific.

User avatar
Todd McCloud
Senator
 
Posts: 4078
Founded: Oct 11, 2006
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Todd McCloud » Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:43 am

Topdop wrote:I think that a thread in Technical would be more appropriate than a condemnation for this. I can't fathom any way that someone could be keeping all of these puppets alive without a script, and that's bullshit.

Exactly. It sounds like to me at least they could be running a script to make these nations, but I don't know. Maybe I just want to believe that, because someone who spends all their time creating 5,000+ nations by hand just seems a little sad.
Hey I wrote a second book! Feel like reading?
This is the first book!

"Your uniform doesn't seem to fit. You're much too alive in it."

"You must be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi
"The worst prison would be a closed heart." - Pope John Paul II
Vekaiyu's Wiki Page | Ikrisia Levinile's Wiki Page | Vekaiyu & Kelssek co-hosted the XII Summer Olympiad

User avatar
Paper Flowers
Diplomat
 
Posts: 712
Founded: Nov 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Paper Flowers » Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:45 am

Todd McCloud wrote:Exactly. It sounds like to me at least they could be running a script to make these nations, but I don't know. Maybe I just want to believe that, because someone who spends all their time creating 5,000+ nations by hand just seems a little sad.


*cough cough*
Liam. A. Saunders - Paper Flowers Ambassador to the World Assembly.

Factbook (under construction - last update 14th November 2012)
Current Affairs - Ambassador Walkers disappearance remains a mystery, Ambassador Saunders promoted in his place.

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to WA Archives

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

Advertisement

Remove ads