NATION

PASSWORD

Woman dies in Ireland for want of an abortion

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 163951
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Iron Fist Socialists

Woman dies in Ireland for want of an abortion

Postby Ifreann » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:29 am

Image
Two investigations are under way into the death of a woman who was 17 weeks pregnant, at University Hospital Galway last month.

Savita Halappanavar (31), a dentist, presented with back pain at the hospital on October 21st, was found to be miscarrying, and died of septicaemia a week later.

Her husband, Praveen Halappanavar (34), an engineer at Boston Scientific in Galway, says she asked several times over a three-day period that the pregnancy be terminated. He says that, having been told she was miscarrying, and after one day in severe pain, Ms Halappanavar asked for a medical termination.

This was refused, he says, because the foetal heartbeat was still present and they were told, “this is a Catholic country”.

She spent a further 2½ days “in agony” until the foetal heartbeat stopped.

Intensive care

The dead foetus was removed and Savita was taken to the high dependency unit and then the intensive care unit, where she died of septicaemia on the 28th.

An autopsy carried out by Dr Grace Callagy two days later found she died of septicaemia “documented ante-mortem” and E.coli ESBL.

Full piece on irishtimes.com, including audio of an interview with Praveen Halappanavar, which I haven't had a chance to listen to in full myself.


The state of abortion law in Ireland is roughly and briefly thus: abortion is prohibited by our constitution, except where the mother's life is at risk, including the risk of suicide. It is legal to travel abroad for abortion services, and to distribute information about abortion services abroad. Various court rulings have, for the past 20 years, put the responsibility on the government to pass legislation establishing when exactly abortions are permissible. No government has done so, the politicians involved presumably being afraid to upset the Catholic majority.

And now it seems that a 31 year old woman is dead, fucking dead, because that fear has put doctors in a position where they have no clear standards on when they can perform medically necessary terminations. What the fuck, NSG? How the actual fuck can temporary political controversy prevent life saving legislation? How could the sane pro-life position even have a problem with abortion in cases like this where the baby is sure to die in either case and the mother will die without one?

Ye gods but this is frustratingly stupid country some times. I can only hope that this awful, preventable tragedy finally gets the political class to pull its head out of its ass and finally, finally, pass a law to set out when women here can have their lives saved by medical terminations, as is their constitutional and basic human right.
He/Him

beating the devil
we never run from the devil
we never summon the devil
we never hide from from the devil
we never

User avatar
EnragedMaldivians
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8451
Founded: Feb 01, 2010
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby EnragedMaldivians » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:33 am

That is a tragedy and I agree with you completely in your assessment.

Do you think the Irish population's attitudes towards abortion are going to change anytime soon?
Last edited by EnragedMaldivians on Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Taking a break.

User avatar
Samuraikoku
Post Czar
 
Posts: 31947
Founded: May 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Samuraikoku » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:33 am

Safe abortion not to die.

User avatar
Central Slavia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8451
Founded: Nov 05, 2009
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Central Slavia » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:35 am

This is horrible, and those involved should be fired, if not arrested.
Regardless of all, terminating a pregnancy for medical reasons is accepted practice in most civilised countries since clearly the life of the mother has greater value.
Kosovo is Serbia!
Embassy Anthem Store Facts

Glorious Homeland wrote:
You would be wrong. There's something wrong with the Americans, the Japanese are actually insane, the Chinese don't seem capable of free-thought and just defer judgement to the most powerful strong man, the Russians are quite like that, only more aggressive and mad, and Belarus? Hah.

Omnicracy wrote:The Soviet Union did not support pro-Soviet governments, it compleatly controled them. The U.S. did not controle the corrupt regiems it set up against the Soviet Union, it just sugested things and changed leaders if they weer not takeing enough sugestions

Great Nepal wrote:Please stick to OFFICIAL numbers. Why to go to scholars,[cut]

User avatar
Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 163951
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:38 am

EnragedMaldivians wrote:That is a tragedy and I agree with you completely in your assessment.

Do you think the Irish population's attitudes towards abortion are going to change anytime soon?

I'm probably not in a great position to judge, since I'm in college and my friends are all godless pro-choice liberals like myself. But I can only assume that the influence of the Catholic Church is waning after all the controversies they've been involved in.
He/Him

beating the devil
we never run from the devil
we never summon the devil
we never hide from from the devil
we never

User avatar
Zweite Alaje
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9551
Founded: Oct 30, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Zweite Alaje » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:39 am

EnragedMaldivians wrote:That is a tragedy and I agree with you completely in your assessment.

Do you think the Irish population's attitudes towards abortion are going to change anytime soon?


Hopefully not.
Geist über Körper, durch Aktionen Ehrung
Likes: Corporatism, Market Socialism, Syndicalism, Progressivism, Pantheism, Gaia Hypothesis, Centrism, Dirigisme

Dislikes: Capitalism, Liberalism, Conservatism, Libertarianism, Abortion, Modern Feminism
I've been: Communist , Fascist
Economic Left/Right: -7.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.18

NIFP
Please don't call me Zweite, Al or Ally is fine. Add 2548 posts, founded Oct 06, 2011

User avatar
Ovisterra
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16017
Founded: Jul 17, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Ovisterra » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:40 am

Ifreann wrote:And now it seems that a 31 year old woman is dead, fucking dead, because that fear has put doctors in a position where they have no clear standards on when they can perform medically necessary terminations. What the fuck, NSG? How the actual fuck can temporary political controversy prevent life saving legislation? How could the sane pro-life position even have a problem with abortion in cases like this where the baby is sure to die in either case and the mother will die without one?


Because this is Ireland. There are no limits on the social conservatism possible here.

Ye gods but this is frustratingly stupid country some times. I can only hope that this awful, preventable tragedy finally gets the political class to pull its head out of its ass and finally, finally, pass a law to set out when women here can have their lives saved by medical terminations, as is their constitutional and basic human right.


I hope so too. But I'm not confident it will happen.
Removing the text from people's sigs doesn't make it any less true. I stand with Yalta.

User avatar
Fionnuala_Saoirse
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5242
Founded: Nov 17, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Fionnuala_Saoirse » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:41 am

EnragedMaldivians wrote:
Do you think the Irish population's attitudes towards abortion are going to change anytime soon?


Not anytime soon.
Stupid Telegrams Received :

- "Isn't your name the name of the female Branch of the IRA" -- Benian Republic

User avatar
Raeyh
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6275
Founded: Feb 24, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Raeyh » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:43 am

This is why we need to research life support for fetuses. They could have taken it out and hooked the guy up without having to risk the mother's life.

User avatar
EnragedMaldivians
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8451
Founded: Feb 01, 2010
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby EnragedMaldivians » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:43 am

Fionnuala_Saoirse wrote:
EnragedMaldivians wrote:
Do you think the Irish population's attitudes towards abortion are going to change anytime soon?


Not anytime soon.


That is a shame.
Taking a break.

User avatar
Ovisterra
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16017
Founded: Jul 17, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Ovisterra » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:46 am

EnragedMaldivians wrote:
Fionnuala_Saoirse wrote:
Not anytime soon.


That is a shame.


Indeed. But not a surprise.
Removing the text from people's sigs doesn't make it any less true. I stand with Yalta.

User avatar
The Huskar Social Union
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 59297
Founded: Apr 04, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Huskar Social Union » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:48 am

Another life lost that could have been easily prevented, they need to get a law for medical terminations for women passed, but i fear that wont happen for quite a while.
Irish Nationalist from Belfast / Leftwing / Atheist / Alliance Party voter
"I never thought in terms of being a leader, i thought very simply in terms of helping people" - John Hume 1937 - 2020



I like Miniature painting, Tanks, English Gals, Video games and most importantly Cheese.


User avatar
Hippostania
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8826
Founded: Nov 23, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Hippostania » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:48 am

Luckily there's Northern Ireland. You know, the better part of Ireland where you can actually get an abortion when your life is in danger instead of suffering in agony for two weeks because POPE and JESUS. :palm:
Factbook - New Embassy Program
Economic Right: 10.00 - Social Authoritarian: 2.87 - Foreign Policy Neoconservative: 9.54 - Cultural Liberal: -1.14
For: market liberalism, capitalism, eurofederalism, neoconservatism, British unionism, atlanticism, LGB rights, abortion rights, Greater Israel, Pan-Western federalism, NATO, USA, EU
Against: communism, socialism, anarchism, eurosceptism, agrarianism, Swiss/Irish/Scottish/Welsh independence, cultural relativism, all things Russian, aboriginal/native American special rights

Hippo's Political Party Rankings (updated 21/7/2013)

User avatar
EnragedMaldivians
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8451
Founded: Feb 01, 2010
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby EnragedMaldivians » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:51 am

Zweite Alaje wrote:
EnragedMaldivians wrote:That is a tragedy and I agree with you completely in your assessment.

Do you think the Irish population's attitudes towards abortion are going to change anytime soon?


Hopefully not.


It's thanks to attitudes like this that my mother had to go to Sri Lanka to get her abortion. Thank fortune it was available there. Backstory: neither her nor my dad thought that they were financially secure enough to have a child. When they decided that they were and had me, they were able to give me and later my sister a relatively comfortable upbringing. If she hadn't been able to have one, the family would have probably ended up being pretty fucking poor.

The option of having easy access to abortion is a good thing for a variety of reasons. Not being able to have access to an abortion, especially when the pregnancy puts a woman's life in danger, is a callous state of affairs.
Last edited by EnragedMaldivians on Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Taking a break.

User avatar
Skibereen
Minister
 
Posts: 2724
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Skibereen » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:53 am

Ifreann wrote:
Two investigations are under way into the death of a woman who was 17 weeks pregnant, at University Hospital Galway last month.

Savita Halappanavar (31), a dentist, presented with back pain at the hospital on October 21st, was found to be miscarrying, and died of septicaemia a week later.

Her husband, Praveen Halappanavar (34), an engineer at Boston Scientific in Galway, says she asked several times over a three-day period that the pregnancy be terminated. He says that, having been told she was miscarrying, and after one day in severe pain, Ms Halappanavar asked for a medical termination.

This was refused, he says, because the foetal heartbeat was still present and they were told, “this is a Catholic country”.

She spent a further 2½ days “in agony” until the foetal heartbeat stopped.

Intensive care

The dead foetus was removed and Savita was taken to the high dependency unit and then the intensive care unit, where she died of septicaemia on the 28th.

An autopsy carried out by Dr Grace Callagy two days later found she died of septicaemia “documented ante-mortem” and E.coli ESBL.

Full piece on irishtimes.com, including audio of an interview with Praveen Halappanavar, which I haven't had a chance to listen to in full myself.


The state of abortion law in Ireland is roughly and briefly thus: abortion is prohibited by our constitution, except where the mother's life is at risk, including the risk of suicide. It is legal to travel abroad for abortion services, and to distribute information about abortion services abroad. Various court rulings have, for the past 20 years, put the responsibility on the government to pass legislation establishing when exactly abortions are permissible. No government has done so, the politicians involved presumably being afraid to upset the Catholic majority.

And now it seems that a 31 year old woman is dead, fucking dead, because that fear has put doctors in a position where they have no clear standards on when they can perform medically necessary terminations. What the fuck, NSG? How the actual fuck can temporary political controversy prevent life saving legislation? How could the sane pro-life position even have a problem with abortion in cases like this where the baby is sure to die in either case and the mother will die without one?

Ye gods but this is frustratingly stupid country some times. I can only hope that this awful, preventable tragedy finally gets the political class to pull its head out of its ass and finally, finally, pass a law to set out when women here can have their lives saved by medical terminations, as is their constitutional and basic human right.

I dont understand, your laws allow abortion if the woman's life was at risk...what was the fucking problem. Not to mention the pregnancy was terminating on its own, the baby wasnt being born either way.
This is really sad.
argumentum ad logicam, seriously think about it.

"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."
James Madison
First in line for the pie in the sky

User avatar
Fionnuala_Saoirse
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5242
Founded: Nov 17, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Fionnuala_Saoirse » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:53 am

Hippostania wrote:Luckily there's Northern Ireland. You know, the better part of Ireland where you can actually get an abortion when your life is in danger instead of suffering in agony for two weeks because POPE and JESUS. :palm:


Yes, NI is all about the abortion rights. In fact when a private abortion clinic opened in Belfast there was a big party right outside the door.
Stupid Telegrams Received :

- "Isn't your name the name of the female Branch of the IRA" -- Benian Republic

User avatar
Skibereen
Minister
 
Posts: 2724
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Skibereen » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:55 am

EnragedMaldivians wrote:
Zweite Alaje wrote:
Hopefully not.


It's thanks to attitudes like this that my mother had to go to Sri Lanka to get her abortion. Thank fortune it was available there. Backstory: neither her nor my dad thought that they were financially secure enough to have a child. When they decided that they were and had me, they were able to give me and later my sister a relatively comfortable upbringing. If she hadn't been able to have one, the family would have probably ended up being pretty fucking poor.

The option of having easy access to abortion is a good thing for a variety of reasons. Not being able to have access to an abortion, especially when the pregnancy puts a woman's life in danger, is a callous state of affairs.

Condoms work too...crazy I know.
Abortion as a form of birth control is frankly barbaric, and justifies every Pro-Life position.
argumentum ad logicam, seriously think about it.

"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."
James Madison
First in line for the pie in the sky

User avatar
Ovisterra
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16017
Founded: Jul 17, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Ovisterra » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:55 am

Skibereen wrote:I dont understand, your laws allow abortion if the woman's life was at risk


And yet there is nowhere in the country where one can get the procedure done.

what was the fucking problem.


Where to start?
Removing the text from people's sigs doesn't make it any less true. I stand with Yalta.

User avatar
Seperates
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14622
Founded: Sep 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Seperates » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:56 am

Skibereen wrote:
EnragedMaldivians wrote:
It's thanks to attitudes like this that my mother had to go to Sri Lanka to get her abortion. Thank fortune it was available there. Backstory: neither her nor my dad thought that they were financially secure enough to have a child. When they decided that they were and had me, they were able to give me and later my sister a relatively comfortable upbringing. If she hadn't been able to have one, the family would have probably ended up being pretty fucking poor.

The option of having easy access to abortion is a good thing for a variety of reasons. Not being able to have access to an abortion, especially when the pregnancy puts a woman's life in danger, is a callous state of affairs.

Condoms work too...crazy I know.
Abortion as a form of birth control is frankly barbaric, and justifies every Pro-Life position.

Generally it isn't used as birth control...

And I don't see what speaking Latin has anything to do with abortion.
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

User avatar
Agritum
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22161
Founded: May 09, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Agritum » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:58 am

Poor woman.
Another victim of the "Pro-Life" crusaders, which actually don't care for human life and rights, as shown above.
Last edited by Agritum on Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
EnragedMaldivians
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8451
Founded: Feb 01, 2010
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby EnragedMaldivians » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:59 am

Skibereen wrote:
EnragedMaldivians wrote:
It's thanks to attitudes like this that my mother had to go to Sri Lanka to get her abortion. Thank fortune it was available there. Backstory: neither her nor my dad thought that they were financially secure enough to have a child. When they decided that they were and had me, they were able to give me and later my sister a relatively comfortable upbringing. If she hadn't been able to have one, the family would have probably ended up being pretty fucking poor.

The option of having easy access to abortion is a good thing for a variety of reasons. Not being able to have access to an abortion, especially when the pregnancy puts a woman's life in danger, is a callous state of affairs.

Condoms work too...crazy I know.
Abortion as a form of birth control is frankly barbaric, and justifies every Pro-Life position.


And when they don't, abortion is (or should be) a perfectly viable option should the woman not feel inclined to have a child. That you find disposing of a clump of cells barbaric doesn't bother me. I'm sure my older "brother" went through so much agony when he was aborted. :roll:
Taking a break.

User avatar
Oppressorion
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1598
Founded: Oct 27, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Oppressorion » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:01 am

Ifreann wrote:
Her husband, Praveen Halappanavar (34), an engineer at Boston Scientific in Galway, says she asked several times over a three-day period that the pregnancy be terminated. He says that, having been told she was miscarrying, and after one day in severe pain, Ms Halappanavar asked for a medical termination.

This was refused, he says, because the foetal heartbeat was still present and they were told, “this is a Catholic country”.


The state of abortion law in Ireland is roughly and briefly thus: abortion is prohibited by our constitution, except where the mother's life is at risk, including the risk of suicide.


With the greatest respect, this does not seem to be the law's fault, or the government's. If the doctors knew that the foetus would die regardless of the mother's life, then they are permitted by law to perform an abortion to save her life and did not. Therefore, her death is their fault.
Imagine somthing like the Combine and Judge Dredd, with mind control.
My IC nation title is Oprusa, and I am human but not connected to Earth.
Do not dabble in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and good with ketchup.
Agnostic, humanist vegetarian. Also against abortion - you get all sorts here, don't you?
DEAT: Delete with Extreme, All-Encompassing Terror!

User avatar
Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 163951
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:03 am

Ovisterra wrote:
Ifreann wrote:And now it seems that a 31 year old woman is dead, fucking dead, because that fear has put doctors in a position where they have no clear standards on when they can perform medically necessary terminations. What the fuck, NSG? How the actual fuck can temporary political controversy prevent life saving legislation? How could the sane pro-life position even have a problem with abortion in cases like this where the baby is sure to die in either case and the mother will die without one?


Because this is Ireland. There are no limits on the social conservatism possible here.

Ye gods but this is frustratingly stupid country some times. I can only hope that this awful, preventable tragedy finally gets the political class to pull its head out of its ass and finally, finally, pass a law to set out when women here can have their lives saved by medical terminations, as is their constitutional and basic human right.


I hope so too. But I'm not confident it will happen.

Nor I.


Hippostania wrote:Luckily there's Northern Ireland. You know, the better part of Ireland where you can actually get an abortion when your life is in danger instead of suffering in agony for two weeks because POPE and JESUS. :palm:

You can't very well expect a woman who's been hospitalised to just up and drive a few hundred kilometres for treatment, even if NI was all sunshine and lollipops about abortion.


Skibereen wrote:I dont understand, your laws allow abortion if the woman's life was at risk...what was the fucking problem. Not to mention the pregnancy was terminating on its own, the baby wasnt being born either way.
This is really sad.

The problem is that while our courts have ruled that abortion is allowed where the woman's life is at risk, there's no law setting out what counts as being at risk enough. Any doctor who performs an abortion could have to defend their decision in court and face jail if the case doesn't go their way.
He/Him

beating the devil
we never run from the devil
we never summon the devil
we never hide from from the devil
we never

User avatar
Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 163951
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:05 am

Skibereen wrote:Abortion as a form of birth control is...

Is nothing to do with the topic at hand and I'll thank you to leave it for another thread.
He/Him

beating the devil
we never run from the devil
we never summon the devil
we never hide from from the devil
we never

User avatar
The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9720
Founded: Jul 25, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:06 am

Skibereen wrote:
EnragedMaldivians wrote:
It's thanks to attitudes like this that my mother had to go to Sri Lanka to get her abortion. Thank fortune it was available there. Backstory: neither her nor my dad thought that they were financially secure enough to have a child. When they decided that they were and had me, they were able to give me and later my sister a relatively comfortable upbringing. If she hadn't been able to have one, the family would have probably ended up being pretty fucking poor.

The option of having easy access to abortion is a good thing for a variety of reasons. Not being able to have access to an abortion, especially when the pregnancy puts a woman's life in danger, is a callous state of affairs.

Condoms work too...crazy I know.
Abortion as a form of birth control is frankly barbaric, and justifies every Pro-Life position.

I tried to put a condom on a fetus once...
Founder of the Church of Ass.

No Homo.
TET sex chat link
Neo Art wrote:
The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace wrote:Ironic ain't it, now there really IS 47% of the country that feels like victims.

........fuck it, you win the internet.

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Calabur, Kostane, Krasny-Volny, Likhinia, Melondonia, Miami Jai-Alai 3, Ohnoh, Saiwana, San Lumen, The Black Forrest

Advertisement

Remove ads

cron