NATION

PASSWORD

Non-voters and the two-party system.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Fluffy Coyotes
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1055
Founded: Nov 08, 2011
Ex-Nation

Non-voters and the two-party system.

Postby Fluffy Coyotes » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:42 pm

Supposedly only 4 out of 7 eligible voters actually voted in the 2008 US Presidential Election. One cannot help wondering what's holding 3 out of 7 people back.

But this isn't necessarily to say we should force them to vote, or even necessarily strongly pressure them; obviously, if not voting is a bad decision, who they'd vote for wouldn't be a good one either. This is to say that examining why may help not only persuade them to vote, but persuade them to make a dent in the two-party system.

You'll notice an increasingly popular justification for not voting is that people want nothing to do with either of the "two candidates." But if we remind them that there are more than two candidates, that justification gets a little hard to support. Obviously voting for someone who isn't either of the two candidates makes more sense than letting one or the other win. If we were to succeed at let's say, even convincing two thirds of the non-voting population to vote, that is 2 out of 7 people voting third party this election.

That's a hell of a lot of extra competition to be forcing both major parties to contend with.
Nazi Flower Power wrote:If the teachings of Christ can't get his followers to behave peacefully, then he obviously did not teach them very well.

User avatar
Silent Majority
Minister
 
Posts: 2498
Founded: Jun 12, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Silent Majority » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:20 pm

Third parties don't do well in electoral systems that use plurality voting, unless a third party builds up a strong regional base. Increased voter participation wouldn't change that.
“It is the ultimate irony of history that radical individualism serves as the ideological justification of the unconstrained power of what the large majority of individuals experience as a vast anonymous power, which, without any democratic public control, regulates their lives.”
― Slavoj Žižek

User avatar
Vazeckta
Diplomat
 
Posts: 881
Founded: Aug 15, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Vazeckta » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:13 pm

Well, there really are only two candidates, considering the near impossibility of a third party winning. But, if we encouraged non-voting 3rd party caucusing people to vote, the electoral college would need a revamp, since 270 won't work if there are 3 or more parties vying for votes.
I think a lot of people just don't care though. My friend told me that sometimes his parents just don't vote because they'd been at work and don't want to go back out again.
Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: 10.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.72
I would probably vote with the American Libertarian Party.
I'm a Christian.
Likes:Capitalism, Classical liberalism, religion, state secularism,gay marriage, charity, God
Dislikes:Left-wing economics, statism, authoritarianism, theocracy, state atheism, social security, welfare, UN, DPRK, PRC
Meh:Teetotalism, pro-choice, EU, legalizing drugs
Blazedtown wrote:
Gladia wrote:I hope you two don't plan on procreating.

Why? A family cross burning is a great bonding activity.

User avatar
Bombadil
Senator
 
Posts: 4078
Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bombadil » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:27 pm

Why I don't vote..

I don't care to go through the admin or taking time out of my day to go do it
I'm a white male, comfortably off and no children so, really, I'm about the least affected as to whoever gets in.

Consideration of a third party wouldn't change that.

One might call that selfish but then I am capable of far greater good in daily life than a vote would ever make, not that I fulfil that capability all the time but still..
Last edited by Bombadil on Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside..

User avatar
Seleucas
Minister
 
Posts: 3200
Founded: Jun 11, 2010
Anarchy

Postby Seleucas » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:34 pm

I didn't vote in 2008, and not because I had no opinion on the candidates who were running. I don't believe any party would actually implement the policies I would want; campaigning for an office you plan to diminish or abolish is generally against the candidate's self-interest as well as the organization that would get him into power (who would be better served using the power they gain to expropriate than to leave people be.) I like to think of it as being akin to getting Richard Dawkins into the papacy, it's not going to happen.
Like an unscrupulous boyfriend, Obama lies about pulling out after fucking you.
-Tokyoni

The State never intentionally confronts a man's sense, intellectual or moral, but only his body, his senses. It is not armed with superior wit or honesty, but with superior physical strength. I was not born to be forced.
- Henry David Thoreau

Oh please. Those people should grow up. The South will NOT rise again.

The Union will instead, fall.
-Distruzio

Dealing with a banking crisis was difficult enough, but at least there were public-sector balance sheets on to which the problems could be moved. Once you move into sovereign debt, there is no answer; there’s no backstop.
-Mervyn King, Governor of the Bank of England

Right: 10.00
Libertarian: 9.9
Non-interventionist: 10
Cultural Liberal: 6.83

User avatar
Atollus
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 362
Founded: Feb 15, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Atollus » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:37 pm

Not only are the two parties unworthy of my vote. The Electoral system makes the democratic process largely gridlocked and pointless. Combine that with the large population in America and a single vote is practically worthless. Its little different than the concept of inflation. Until the electorate is abolished voter apathy is likely to increase, even more so as the population gets smarter with each generation. As Americans wise up to the two parties of wimps and goons, less will vote. Simple.
Patriotic Social Democrat
Political test results

User avatar
ArUmdAUM
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23684
Founded: Oct 21, 2009
Left-wing Utopia

Postby ArUmdAUM » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:39 pm

Vazeckta wrote:Well, there really are only two candidates, considering the near impossibility of a third party winning. But, if we encouraged non-voting 3rd party caucusing people to vote, the electoral college would need a revamp, since 270 won't work if there are 3 or more parties vying for votes.
I think a lot of people just don't care though. My friend told me that sometimes his parents just don't vote because they'd been at work and don't want to go back out again.

The spoiler effect pretty much prevents people voting third party.
lefter than thou

Tiandi <-- MT RP region +map join IIWiki

User avatar
Vazeckta
Diplomat
 
Posts: 881
Founded: Aug 15, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Vazeckta » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:43 pm

Arumdaum wrote:
Vazeckta wrote:Well, there really are only two candidates, considering the near impossibility of a third party winning. But, if we encouraged non-voting 3rd party caucusing people to vote, the electoral college would need a revamp, since 270 won't work if there are 3 or more parties vying for votes.
I think a lot of people just don't care though. My friend told me that sometimes his parents just don't vote because they'd been at work and don't want to go back out again.

The spoiler effect pretty much prevents people voting third party.

Spoiler effect?
Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: 10.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.72
I would probably vote with the American Libertarian Party.
I'm a Christian.
Likes:Capitalism, Classical liberalism, religion, state secularism,gay marriage, charity, God
Dislikes:Left-wing economics, statism, authoritarianism, theocracy, state atheism, social security, welfare, UN, DPRK, PRC
Meh:Teetotalism, pro-choice, EU, legalizing drugs
Blazedtown wrote:
Gladia wrote:I hope you two don't plan on procreating.

Why? A family cross burning is a great bonding activity.

User avatar
Wamitoria
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18852
Founded: Jun 28, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Wamitoria » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:50 pm

Vazeckta wrote:
Arumdaum wrote:The spoiler effect pretty much prevents people voting third party.

Spoiler effect?

Voting for candidate A, who is to the right of candidate B, allows candidate C to win with a lower percentage of the vote than would otherwise be possible.
Wonder where all the good posters went? Look no further!

Hurry, before the Summer Nazis show up again!

User avatar
ArUmdAUM
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23684
Founded: Oct 21, 2009
Left-wing Utopia

Postby ArUmdAUM » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:51 pm

Vazeckta wrote:
Arumdaum wrote:The spoiler effect pretty much prevents people voting third party.

Spoiler effect?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_effect

Like pretend there's three parties on the ballot.

The dinglewobbler party, the doogoowaga party, and the angry moms party.

The dinglewobblers are a third party, and are pretty apathetic about the doogoowagas, but really hate the angry moms party.

And pretend these were the results:
Dinglewobbler 18%
Doogoowaga 39%
Angry moms: 43%

The angry moms party wins because the vote against it was divided. This is the spoiler effect, and it occurs under first past the post systems. Pretty much what happened in Florida in the 2000 election with Ralph Nader.
lefter than thou

Tiandi <-- MT RP region +map join IIWiki

User avatar
Seleucas
Minister
 
Posts: 3200
Founded: Jun 11, 2010
Anarchy

Postby Seleucas » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:02 pm

Atollus wrote:Not only are the two parties unworthy of my vote. The Electoral system makes the democratic process largely gridlocked and pointless. Combine that with the large population in America and a single vote is practically worthless. Its little different than the concept of inflation. Until the electorate is abolished voter apathy is likely to increase, even more so as the population gets smarter with each generation. As Americans wise up to the two parties of wimps and goons, less will vote. Simple.


Ya, that's a big thing too; my vote is irrelevant, so it's not going to do me any good to participate.
Like an unscrupulous boyfriend, Obama lies about pulling out after fucking you.
-Tokyoni

The State never intentionally confronts a man's sense, intellectual or moral, but only his body, his senses. It is not armed with superior wit or honesty, but with superior physical strength. I was not born to be forced.
- Henry David Thoreau

Oh please. Those people should grow up. The South will NOT rise again.

The Union will instead, fall.
-Distruzio

Dealing with a banking crisis was difficult enough, but at least there were public-sector balance sheets on to which the problems could be moved. Once you move into sovereign debt, there is no answer; there’s no backstop.
-Mervyn King, Governor of the Bank of England

Right: 10.00
Libertarian: 9.9
Non-interventionist: 10
Cultural Liberal: 6.83

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 40456
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:16 pm

The Fresh Start Party

If elected, we shall pass a bill banning the democratic and republican parties for a period of 100 years, and ban all current posistion holders above aldermann or are within these parties and earning X moneys from political activity from participating in an election for 20 years.
We will pass campaign finance reform legislation.
We will resign after 1 year in office. ;)
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Risottia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 49629
Founded: Sep 05, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Risottia » Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:12 am


"Supposedly"?
You mean the US gov't doesn't know how many eligible voters there are, and how many of them actually voted?
:blink:

One cannot help wondering what's holding 3 out of 7 people back.

FPTP might be a cause.
With FPTP, most of the times, a large chunk (or even the majority) of the voters don't get any representation - because the seat/offices goes to a list/candidate who won the plurality, with figures typically between 30% and 55%.

If I know that I'm not getting any representation anyway, why should I even bother to vote in the first place? I'd go rather back to "no taxation without representation" and stop paying the taxes. :D
Last edited by Risottia on Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Statanist through and through.
Evilutionist Atheist Crusadjihadist. "Darwinu Akhbar! Dawkins vult!"
Founder of the NSG Peace Prize Committee.
I'm back.

User avatar
Chestaan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6297
Founded: Sep 30, 2011
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Chestaan » Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:42 am

I suppose part of the reason why many don't vote is because they know that either the Democrats or Republicans are almost certain to win in their state. I would think that voting numbers in swing states would be much higher. I really think the American system needs to be completely re-designed. The electoral college should be abolished and FPTP should be replaced by PR. It would be far from a perfect but it would be vastly superior to the current system.
Council Communist
TG me if you want to chat, especially about economics, you can never have enough discussions on economics.Especially game theory :)
Economic Left/Right: -9.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.62

The problem with imperialism is that eventually you run out of other people's countries.

User avatar
Forsakia
Minister
 
Posts: 3076
Founded: Nov 14, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Forsakia » Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:55 am

Risottia wrote:

"Supposedly"?
You mean the US gov't doesn't know how many eligible voters there are, and how many of them actually voted?
:blink:


I think it includes people who are probably eligible but not registered to vote.
One cannot help wondering what's holding 3 out of 7 people back.

FPTP might be a cause.
With FPTP, most of the times, a large chunk (or even the majority) of the voters don't get any representation - because the seat/offices goes to a list/candidate who won the plurality, with figures typically between 30% and 55%.

If I know that I'm not getting any representation anyway, why should I even bother to vote in the first place? I'd go rather back to "no taxation without representation" and stop paying the taxes. :D


On the PR point, I think New Zealand was the most recent country to change from plurality to PR systems and didn't see an uptick in voter turnout.
Last edited by Forsakia on Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Member of Arch's fan club.

User avatar
Risottia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 49629
Founded: Sep 05, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Risottia » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:15 am

Forsakia wrote:
Risottia wrote:"Supposedly"?
You mean the US gov't doesn't know how many eligible voters there are, and how many of them actually voted?
:blink:


I think it includes people who are probably eligible but not registered to vote.

WTF do they mean "probably eligible"? One is eligible or he's not. Tertium non datur. I'd require the gov't to know it for sure.


On the PR point, I think New Zealand was the most recent country to change from plurality to PR systems and didn't see an uptick in voter turnout.

Here in Italy we had a steady decay in the number of voters since FPTP and PR-with-threshold were introduced (respectively in 1993 and 2006).
When we had pure PR, no threshold, we had about 80-85% turnouts.
Last edited by Risottia on Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Statanist through and through.
Evilutionist Atheist Crusadjihadist. "Darwinu Akhbar! Dawkins vult!"
Founder of the NSG Peace Prize Committee.
I'm back.

User avatar
The USOT
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5862
Founded: Mar 09, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby The USOT » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:39 am

Personally I am of the oppinion that Politics should be taught in the classroom from an early age.
Not to teach a specific bias, but frankly asside from concientus objectors a lot of people dont understand why voting is so important/are not familiar enough with different policies etc.
Eco-Friendly Green Cyborg Santa Claus

Contrary to the propaganda, we live in probably the least materialistic culture in history. If we cared about the things of the world, we would treat them quite differently. We would be concerned with their materiality. We would be interested in their beginnings and their ends, before and after they left our grasp.

Peter Timmerman, “Defending Materialism"

User avatar
Gauntleted Fist
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10061
Founded: Aug 17, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Gauntleted Fist » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:49 am

Risottia wrote:WTF do they mean "probably eligible"? One is eligible or he's not. Tertium non datur.

There are a lot of things in the US that can keep you from registering to vote. People that are over eighteen but not actually registered are therefore "probably eligible", but may not be for any number of reasons.



Risottia wrote:I'd require the gov't to know it for sure.

Registering to vote is not a mandatory thing in the US. You can quite literally go your whole life without even approaching a polling station. It's kind of silly to track people who aren't registering to vote for voter eligibility. They're not voting, why track them for voting?

User avatar
Forsakia
Minister
 
Posts: 3076
Founded: Nov 14, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Forsakia » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:57 am

Risottia wrote:
Forsakia wrote:
I think it includes people who are probably eligible but not registered to vote.

WTF do they mean "probably eligible"? One is eligible or he's not. Tertium non datur. I'd require the gov't to know it for sure.



There are a set of requirements for voting. Being over 18, citizenship, etc, makes you potentially eligible but to be actually eligible you also have to register to vote. The requirements get checked when someone registers to vote, but some people are potentially eligible to vote who don't register and so don't get checked.

So there's this number of people who are probably potentially eligible, but since they haven't been checked they might not be hence the uncertainty (hell, even with censuses etc they don't have exact numbers on the number of people living in the country).
Member of Arch's fan club.

User avatar
SquareDisc City
Senator
 
Posts: 3535
Founded: Jul 02, 2004
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby SquareDisc City » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:06 am

Risottia wrote:With FPTP, most of the times, a large chunk (or even the majority) of the voters don't get any representation - because the seat/offices goes to a list/candidate who won the plurality, with figures typically between 30% and 55%.
On the contrary, my view is that regardless of whether the MP I have is the one I voted for, it's still their job to represent me in Parliament, to be aware of how the national laws will affect the local issues and argue against that which will have a negative impact.
FT: The Confederation of the United Pokemon Types
Faster Than Sight. I apply science equations to FT. No new updates but feel free to check the old pieces.
Factbook.
UPT Embassy Program.

User avatar
Fluffy Coyotes
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1055
Founded: Nov 08, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Fluffy Coyotes » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:31 am

Risottia wrote:"Supposedly"?
You mean the US gov't doesn't know how many eligible voters there are, and how many of them actually voted?

No, I'm using that as a qualifier just in case it could be wrong. There's no source I'm 100% certain I trust.
Nazi Flower Power wrote:If the teachings of Christ can't get his followers to behave peacefully, then he obviously did not teach them very well.

User avatar
Meridiani Planum
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5578
Founded: Nov 03, 2006
Capitalizt

Postby Meridiani Planum » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:49 am

Chestaan wrote:I suppose part of the reason why many don't vote is because they know that either the Democrats or Republicans are almost certain to win in their state. I would think that voting numbers in swing states would be much higher. I really think the American system needs to be completely re-designed. The electoral college should be abolished and FPTP should be replaced by PR. It would be far from a perfect but it would be vastly superior to the current system.


I tend to agree, though I'll admit that part of my incentive for agreeing is that I vote "third party" virtually exclusively, and I'd like to see third parties have a better chance to have some influence at the national level.

If there is some concern about stability, one could have PR in the House of Representatives, and have FPTP (or maybe some ranking system) in the Senate. That would mean that the most popular parties (probably the GOP and Democrats) would dominate the Senate, but third parties would have a better chance at the House of Representatives.
Last edited by Meridiani Planum on Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:57 am, edited 3 times in total.
I shall choose friends among men, but neither slaves nor masters.
- Ayn Rand

User avatar
Empire of Vlissingen
Minister
 
Posts: 2356
Founded: Jul 16, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Empire of Vlissingen » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:57 am

I think there will be more votes in a political system like in the Netherlands.
With No state votes but just one election and multiple parties.
In the Netherlands around 3 in 4 people vote.
I live in The Netherlands.
Economic Left/Right: 4.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.31

User avatar
Eireann Fae
Minister
 
Posts: 3422
Founded: Oct 15, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Eireann Fae » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:58 am

I don't vote because I live in Texas. This is a solid red state, and that is not going to change.

I did vote once, I believe it was in 2008. The approximate numbers for who voted what, with my selection in bold:

Republican - 2.4 million
Democrat - 2.1 million
Progressive - 100,000
Green - 17,000

Even if all three non-reds banded together, Perry would still have kept a firm grip on the governorship. Suffice it to say, I was disappointed my first - and likely last - time out voting.

User avatar
Farnhamia
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 90870
Founded: Jun 20, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Farnhamia » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:21 am

Eireann Fae wrote:I don't vote because I live in Texas. This is a solid red state, and that is not going to change.

I did vote once, I believe it was in 2008. The approximate numbers for who voted what, with my selection in bold:

Republican - 2.4 million
Democrat - 2.1 million
Progressive - 100,000
Green - 17,000

Even if all three non-reds banded together, Perry would still have kept a firm grip on the governorship. Suffice it to say, I was disappointed my first - and likely last - time out voting.

So your guy didn't win and now you're giving up? You could join the Democrats and work hard to turn Texas around. After all, the state gave us Lyndon Johnson once upon a time.
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickels
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
RIP Dyakovo, Ashmoria | In support of Arch
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy

Next

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Albrenia, Bakery Hill, Bing [Bot], Cannot think of a name, Community Values, Democratic Communist Federation, Destructive Government Economic System, Engleberg, Furnifold, Galloism, Godular, Greater Redosia, Greed and Death, Grinning Dragon, Internationalist Bastard, Kernen, Len Hyet, MERIZoC, Naval Monte, Neo Rome Republic, Northern Davincia, Paddy O Fernature, Proctopeo, Purpelia, Ralnis, Republic of Keshiland, Rhodes Republic, South Pacific Republic, Sovaal, Telconi, The Flutterlands, The Hiberno-Scottish Republic, The Lone Alliance, The New California Republic, The Parkus Empire, The Widening Gyre, Turiqua, United Saurian, Vassenor, Victorious Decepticons, Yagon

Remove ads