[PASSED] Liberate Christmas

[Fynnbays]

To me, this is sounding like another AoSS. situation. The UDL are just wanting to hold the region to ransom so the region will be dependent on the defender groups in the future for protection.

If these claims made by the raiders about their intentions turn out to be untrue then the natives can always found a region with a similar name that will have the added protection of an active founder.

[Mahaj]

Nobody mentioned such a telegram in this thread. For those of you who are wondering what Mahaj and Unibot are going on about, there was a misunderstanding with an IRC conversation between Unibot and I that led me to believe a Christmas native opposed liberation. I was only told this was not the case about 10 minutes ago by Mahaj, and I hope that you both will drop the subject because it was an honest misunderstanding, not a lie.

The argument was still used in the telegramming of delegates against this resolution.

I'm glad you admitted it was a mistake, so there's no need for me to pressure it, but it is important that delegates know that what they received in their inboxes from Cormac was not the truth.

[Eist]

Are/were there any WA natives? I've always been hesitant to defend there because I've always considered it a puppet dump.

Not that the answer to this is going to define my vote; I am just genuinely interested.

[Venicos]

There were no WA members and no WA delegate

[SunRawr]

This is just silly..

[Cormac Stark]

We regret the error in regard to native opposition to liberation -- but it was just that, an error. We did not intentionally mislead anyone.

Your plans to refound the region involve kicking out the entire native community, such that it does not exist inside of Christmas.

So what do I want? A region where the natives can live in peace how they want. That is why I support this liberation.

As we stated on the WFE, on the RMB, in our embassy update, and in our TG to Delegates, any native interested in returning to Christmas will be guaranteed the right of return. Speaking of natives, your extremely flawed proposal states that the entire native population has already been ejected from the region. I count at least five natives still in the region. Do you have information that I don't have that leads you to believe these remaining nations aren't native to the region? Or is your proposal just that much more inaccurate?

By the way, should your liberation proposal prevail, what do you plan to do to make Christmas "a region where the natives can live in peace how they want"? Our intentions are clear: We will refound the region, which will in fact guarantee peace and allow natives to live without the threat of constant invasion and however they want. The history of Christmas thus far has been of constant invasion and detagging. If your liberation resolution passes, what are you going to do to change that?

Furthermore, I do not see why the occupiers need to destroy the region to make it a better region. Why not just, join the region and improve it from the inside?

We are not "destroying" the region. We are refounding the region, and your hyperbole doesn't change that. Moreover, if the UDL is so concerned about the future of this region why haven't any of you joined the region and improved it from the inside? Why did we find it with no WA nations, no WA Regional Delegate, and no posts on the RMB for five months? Don't blame us for your failures in regard to founderless regions.

[Venicos]

I have a question to Mahaj, has any native asked you or any part of UDL to liberate them?

[Sedgistan]

I always thought Christmas was just occupied with puppets, and that there'd never been any community there. It does seem silly to argue that the invasion and re-founding is okay because there's no community there, and then also claim that re-founding will allow the community to be secure. If there's no community, its security is irrelevant.

That said, I'd probably support this, simply because re-founding will deny us the chance to see which raiders are dedicated/obsessed enough to take part in the annual Christmas Eve raid. EDIT: Plus which defenders are crazy enough to liberate the next day...

[Eist]

Raiders should not be allowed to occupy and lock-down any innocent region, regardless of size and activity. To give a seemingly innocent region the chance for autonomous rule as opposed to raider oppression is something I will almost always support.

FOR

[Cromarty]

I have a question to Mahaj, has any native asked you or any part of UDL to liberate them?

Has any native asked Asgard to invade and refound the region?

[Cormac Stark]

I have a question to Mahaj, has any native asked you or any part of UDL to liberate them?

Has any native asked Asgard to invade and refound the region?

We asked Mahaj first.

[Drop Your Pants]

I always thought Christmas was just occupied with puppets, and that there'd never been any community there.

Used to share a founder with The Youngworld so it had a bit of a community, if only by accident

Edit: you know its bad when a mod tells you to fix your tags

[Mahaj]

Has any native asked Asgard to invade and refound the region?

We asked Mahaj first.

You raided first.

[Venicos]

Would you please answer the question Mahaj? The facts should be known.

[Fear the Navy]

Mahaj has stated on IRC that he writes these proposals to increase his SC Resolution count. Any proposal by him should be taken with a grain of salt.

I just don't understand why these SC Proposals have to be so poor in quality if the reasoning is sound.

[Cromarty]

Mahaj has stated on IRC that he writes these proposals to increase his SC Resolution count. Any proposal by him should be taken with a grain of salt.

I just don't understand why these SC Proposals have to be so poor in quality if the reasoning is sound.

Tell me, what SC Proposals have you authored recently?

And who is it that's hiding behind this puppet?

[Fear the Navy]

Mahaj has stated on IRC that he writes these proposals to increase his SC Resolution count. Any proposal by him should be taken with a grain of salt.

I just don't understand why these SC Proposals have to be so poor in quality if the reasoning is sound.

Tell me, what SC Proposals have you authored recently?

And who is it that's hiding behind this puppet?

None, I have too much respect for the SC as an institution to submit anything other than what I feel would be of solid quality.

It's my WA nation and this is a WA institution.

[Eist]

Mahaj has stated on IRC that he writes these proposals to increase his SC Resolution count. Any proposal by him should be taken with a grain of salt.

It's probably an easy point for Mahaj, which I'm sure he will cherish and put on his CV for potential future employers, but that does not negate the fact that this proposal is worth considering.

You can trash Mahaj all you want, but this is really about the proposal, not who wrote it. Propose to condemn him if you like.

[Cormac Stark]

To answer the question that Mahaj will not: No, natives did not ask us to occupy and refound Christmas. They also have not asked us not to occupy and refound Christmas.

Now, Mahaj: Have natives asked you specifically or the UDL in general for help?

[Unibot II]

Why did we find it with no WA nations, no WA Regional Delegate, and no posts on the RMB for five months? Don't blame us for your failures in regard to founderless regions.

This isn't me on trial, it's you. However, I never forfeit an opportunity to make a thread about me; it will suffice to say, I care enough about Christmas not to want it to become an imperial colony under your regime without its consent, Cormac, because I believe in regional sovereignty, independence and above all else, justice. I do not have enough personal ties or association to desire to be a citizen of the region.

You do not need to be a member of a region to know and actively protest, even intervene when outsiders aren't playing nice with said other region -- that is not only the principles behind defenderism, but also the World Assembly Security Council, humanitarianism and interregional goodwill.

We are not "destroying" the region. We are refounding the region, and your hyperbole doesn't change that. Moreover, if the UDL is so concerned about the future of this region why haven't any of you joined the region and improved it from the inside?

Excuse me? Unlike Cromarty, I *did* ask first. Why do you need to destroy and refound the region to improve it? Surely any sort of restoration project could be done between concerned citizens in Christmas -- if you wanted to be such a concerned citizen, you could have joined the region.

Instead you've moved your raider forces in and have made some cockeyed scheme about "needing to improve the region", hence justifying the region's destruction and refounding, so "Christmas" (what a lovely name for a colony) can be an Asgard colony under the Asgard name. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the blatant holes in your propaganda.

The World Assembly Security Council should not be actively encouraging imperialism whilst it stands for interregional goodwill and peace and thus should be motioning to liberate Christmas from the hands of its foreign aggressors, a.k.a., you: Cormac Stark.

If you want to help the region, Cormac, which I sincerely doubt you do, you would stop this invasion pronto, join the region simply as a member with what friends want to help out and begin developing the region. Perhaps Christmas wants a forum? Organize recruitment? Discuss the possibility of creating a regional government among the natives (with you included in that group once you actively joined as a member) -- like, say, with a staff of elves under Pier Noel. There's all sorts of things you could have done and can still do *without* forcing a refound and subjecting the region to an overbearing foreign imperial power; the fact that you insist on doing this, via the imperial route, demonstrates your true colours and intention.

To me, this is sounding like another AoSS. situation. The UDL are just wanting to hold the region to ransom so the region will be dependent on the defender groups in the future for protection.

Excuse me, but the UDL wanted to liberate Alliance of Socialist States because the natives didn't want the Red Army there. Little Basses specifically telegrammed me to ask for the UDL to liberate the region. Unfortunately, we were unable to liberate, but Little Basses has taken the opportunity to change the password so that it is relatively safe from invaders, including left-leaning ones, in the future.

These stories about us wanting more regions to liberate are entirely bogus; we seriously have enough founderless regions to keep us busy, even if we'd be so inclined to care more about the existence of opportunities to defend than native security, which we don't. The same goes for Christmas.

If these claims made by the raiders about their intentions turn out to be untrue then the natives can always found a region with a similar name that will have the added protection of an active founder.

Yes, because if there's anything the Security Council should be doing, it's giving the aggressors the shadow of the doubt instead of the natives and, of course, giving an "oops!", when a little oversight like a group's region slipping into the hands of imperialists.

[Cromarty]

To answer the question that Mahaj will not: No, natives did not ask us to occupy and refound Christmas. They also have not asked us not to occupy and refound Christmas.

Now let's get an actual answer to questions I've asked of Asgard in two different places, and gotten avoidances or ignored:

Whilst Asgard may claim it wants to make Christmas a 'cultural hub' of Nationstates, and may indeed be sincere in these claims, can Asgard provide any examples of forcibly taken regions becoming such 'hubs', either Asgard 'protected' or others?

Can you reveal your plan for making Christmas a 'cultural hub' of NS?

Can you explain just how you plan to keep it active? To keep it a 'cultural hub'?

If Asgard wants to 'ensure [Christmas]... is not raided again and again' then why not let a native refound it?

And what assurances can Asgard give that it's aims are, like it implies, 'noble'?

[Fear the Navy]

Mahaj has stated on IRC that he writes these proposals to increase his SC Resolution count. Any proposal by him should be taken with a grain of salt.

It's probably an easy point for Mahaj, which I'm sure he will cherish and put on his CV for potential future employers, but that does not negate the fact that this proposal is worth considering.

You can trash Mahaj all you want, but this is really about the proposal, not who wrote it. Propose to condemn him if you like.

I don't think any low quality SC resolution deserves considering, particularly when they are written to boost resolution counts.

AWARE that Christmas is a region which many people treasure due to its special name

It reminds me of a movie I was watching recently, where the CEO says "There are three ways to make a living in this business: be first, be smarter, or cheat.". I just don't like the idea of these SC liberations which are written to be first, why can't there be more discussion and must it always be "well, it would be nice if it was a better proposal... but we can just go with this...".

[Unibot II]

Now, Mahaj: Have natives asked you specifically or the UDL in general for help?

That's a red herring and you know it: have the natives asked to have their region to be hijacked, destroyed and refounded under your imperial regime? While both sides motion to get testimonies from the sleepy natives, I don't see why we should give you and your aggressors, the shadow of the doubt. I give one group the advantage when not all of the answers have come to light and that's the native community; they're not awake right now (as far as I know), so I'm going to fight for their region's security from interregional imperialists like you, until they tell me it's not necessary -- I don't see why Mahaj or the World Assembly Security Council should feel differently unless either is inclined to side with imperialists by default.

[Fear the Navy]

Now, Mahaj: Have natives asked you specifically or the UDL in general for help?

That's a red herring and you know it: have the natives asked to have their region to be hijacked, destroyed and refounded under your imperial regime? While both sides motion to get testimonies from the sleepy natives, I don't see why we should give you and your aggressors, the shadow of the doubt. I give one group the advantage when not all of the answers have come to light and that's the native community; they're not awake right now (as far as I know), so I'm going to fight for their region's security from interregional imperialists like you, until they tell me it's not necessary -- I don't see why Mahaj or the World Assembly Security Council should feel differently unless either is inclined to side with imperialists by default.

Who is we? Personally I'm one person.

[Unibot II]

That's a red herring and you know it: have the natives asked to have their region to be hijacked, destroyed and refounded under your imperial regime? While both sides motion to get testimonies from the sleepy natives, I don't see why we should give you and your aggressors, the shadow of the doubt. I give one group the advantage when not all of the answers have come to light and that's the native community; they're not awake right now (as far as I know), so I'm going to fight for their region's security from interregional imperialists like you, until they tell me it's not necessary -- I don't see why Mahaj or the World Assembly Security Council should feel differently unless either is inclined to side with imperialists by default.

Who is we? Personally I'm one person.

I'm going to wager a bet, you're not a native of Christmas since you've been too busy helping The Black Hawks raid St. Abbaddon and The New Inquisition raid Goauld System Lords according to your Regional Happenings and my memory too.

But then again, that alleged ex-founder of Land of the Liberals is still singing in CTE-land about the injustice of his region being saved and such. So I've certainly heard stupider propaganda.