[PASSED] Liberate Christmas

[Naivetry]

So, what gives you the right to decide what's best for a region without actually consulting the natives? You just jumped in and did what you wanted, without bothering to ask how any of them felt about it. Maybe they would have said you were doing the right thing for the region, or maybe they wouldn't have cared. The point is, you had no way of knowing which was the case before those two natives popped up here to post about it, because you didn't ask first. Native sovereignty is what matters in the end - and not just a theoretical sovereignty that fits your ideological view of NS. You have no moral ground to stand on, here.

Oh, and that goes for Asgard, too.

Just making a point, kids... carry on. Anyone want cookies?

[Meritocratic States]

The Meritocratic States Government has finished its internal debate regarding this matter and concludes that we are ABSTAINING from voting. Our government fears the potential consequences of our vote and we are unwilling to bear it.

We wash our hands clean from this vote.

-Stanley Iavarone, SC Representative
Meritocratic States delegation to the World Assembly

[Cromarty]

Why should one native represent a whole region?
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

Because he's the one native who's spoken up?

[Cromarty]

This is a completely inactive region that will have new life given to it by an active community.

Will it? Or will it be inactive for 11 and a half months and used as a puppet dump and then comes alive once a year as Asgard's winter retreat?

What, exactly, does the one native that Mahaj goaded into posting here lose by joining a refounded region?

I love this argument.

First you say 'No natives oppose us.'

Then one says 'Uh, actually guys, I don't want this.'

Then you say 'Oh he doesn't matter! Mahaj must've forced him to post!'

[Baubles]

That's unfortunate but unsurprising, although Lebuckte is the only native who has spoken out against refounding in this thread so I'm afraid I'm not going to concede that there is more than one native opposed to refounding until they say so publicly. I certainly have not heard from any other native that they are opposed to our refounding plan

Well then you are in luck...

You yourself forcibly ejected me from my home region of.... Christmas, four days ago. And as I'm currently locked out of my HOME region with no way of getting back in, I have no option but to support this 'liberation'. So this is me, telling you that I am opposed to your refounding plan.

That said, it wouldn't be surprising if natives are opposed to refounding given the smear campaign that has been conducted against us by this proposal's author and his friends in the UDL over the past few days.

I'm not sure what smear campaign this is? The only person who has contacted me was yourself; first to tell me Christmas had been raided then to tell me that we were to become part of Asgard.

We have assured the natives of Christmas that we are only interested in providing security and building up the community and culture of the region [...]

I can assure you that I was not assured that you were only interested in providing us with security. You first wanted to talk to me about the future of Christmas, then just five days later it would appear that you have decided what the future of Christmas should be...a colony of Asgard. I know I didn't ask to become a colony... even if you could provide us with security

So, what gives you the right to decide what's best for a region without actually consulting the natives? You just jumped in and did what you wanted, without bothering to ask how any of them felt about it.

That was aimed at Mahaj. But it is also exactly what Asgard has done. I wasn't consulted about the Asgard raid...so what right do they have to tell us how to control our region? We were doing fine before all this fuss...

[Doctor whooves]

Bah, humbug!

[Cormac Stark]

Well then you are in luck...

You yourself forcibly ejected me from my home region of.... Christmas, four days ago. And as I'm currently locked out of my HOME region with no way of getting back in, I have no option but to support this 'liberation'. So this is me, telling you that I am opposed to your refounding plan.

I would note that it has taken you four days to notice that you've been ejected from your home region. I would also note that you did not respond to my telegrams and that we would have been willing to work with you had you responded.

You will have the option to return to the region as soon as it's refounded, where you will be able to do exactly what you did before -- which was answer issues, acquire regional influence, and not post on the RMB or be in any way active in the region. You will also have the opportunity to be more active if you so choose, and free of the possibility of constant invasion and possible refounding by a much less friendly region.

I'm not sure what smear campaign this is? The only person who has contacted me was yourself; first to tell me Christmas had been raided then to tell me that we were to become part of Asgard.

The smear campaign to which I was referring has been the insidious and undiplomatic campaign of deception and slander that has been perpetrated by this proposal's author and his friends in the UDL. You can find much of that campaign throughout this thread, although some of the most precious gems have taken place on regional forums and IRCs.

I'm not surprised that he didn't contact you, though. I contacted you because Asgard actually cares about the natives of Christmas and wanted all of you to be aware of what was going on; Mahaj only cares about passage of his liberation resolution.

I can assure you that I was not assured that you were only interested in providing us with security. You first wanted to talk to me about the future of Christmas, then just five days later it would appear that you have decided what the future of Christmas should be...a colony of Asgard. I know I didn't ask to become a colony... even if you could provide us with security

I most certainly have assured natives who were responsive to my telegrams that we are interested in providing the region with security and stability. I refrained from sending multiple TGs to natives who were unresponsive, like yourself, to avoid anything that might be construed as spam or harassment.

You may not have asked to become a colony, but let me paint you a picture of the region's future if this liberation resolution passes and we are unsuccessful: You will be raided, and frequently. TITO, the FRA, and the UDL will not help you, as they did not this time. Should you and other natives decide to refound for your security, you will in all likelihood need to password protect the region -- but before you will be able to do that you will first have to repeal Liberate Christmas.

Should you decide not to refound, the number of nations will eventually dwindle and another region or organization -- perhaps one far less friendly and with far less noble intentions than our own, like The Greater German Reich -- will password protect the region and eject all remaining nations before the Security Council can act to prevent it. Unlike us, they may not guarantee you the right of return. If they do, they will almost certainly not assist you in establishing an offsite forum or a regional government.

We don't want Christmas as a trophy. We have annexed Christmas because we believe we can provide a brighter future for the region. This liberation resolution promises only the future that I have described above.

[Baubles]

I would note that it has taken you four days to notice that you've been ejected from your home region. I would also note that you did not respond to my telegrams and that we would have been willing to work with you had you responded.

I would also note that just because I haven't said anything for four days doesn't mean I didn't notice... I can assure you that I noticed within a day of being ejected. The reason I didn't respond to your telegrams is that I thought nothing of them. Raiders have typically only stayed a couple of days and none have done this before.

You will also have the opportunity to be more active if you so choose, and free of the possibility of constant invasion and possible refounding by a much less friendly region.

You keep harping on about the "constant invasions" that take place in Christmas. If you would care to look through the region's history you would notice that the we have only had 6 raider delegates (including yourself) in over 2.5 years, we have also had 9 defender delegates diligently tidying up our region after you guys have left. So your claim that TITO, the FRA and The UDL have abandoned us is false, they are clearly more than happy to help us out (as is also shown by the fact that Mahaj has organised this liberation...)

The smear campaign to which I was referring has been the insidious and undiplomatic campaign of deception and slander that has been perpetrated by this proposal's author.

Reading through this thread would also indicate that he is not the only one doing so...

I'm not surprised that he didn't contact you, though. I contacted you because Asgard actually cares about the natives of Christmas and wanted all of you to be aware of what was going on; Mahaj only cares about passage of his liberation resolution.

If Asgard really cared about us you wouldn't be refounding our region against our wishes...

Should you decide not to refound, the number of nations will eventually dwindle and another region or organization -- perhaps one far less friendly and with far less noble intentions than our own, like The Greater German Reich -- will password protect the region and eject all remaining nations before the Security Council can act to prevent it. Unlike us, they may not guarantee you the right of return. If they do, they will almost certainly not assist you in establishing an offsite forum or a regional government.

Answer me this. If you guys are no longer in our region because it has been liberated and that liberation is still in place because we have chosen not to repeal it; then how in the hell can The Greater German Reich password our region?

[Cormac Stark]

Answer me this. If you guys are no longer in our region because it has been liberated and that liberation is still in place because we have chosen not to repeal it; then how in the hell can The Greater German Reich password our region?

You've got me there. That made absolutely no sense. I blame the lack of sleep; see, I and several other Asgardians been logging a lot of hours trying to defend your region against the UDL for the past couple of days.

In any event, you're completely wrong about the future of your region. This liberation resolution has put it on the map and, if this resolution passes, you'll be raided much more frequently than you were before. I'm sorry you feel the way that you do but it would be distasteful to bicker with a native, so I've said my peace and I'll go back to bickering with Mahaj & Co. I would simply ask the Security Council to look beyond the wishes of these two natives and try to see what's best for all the natives and for the future of the region as a whole.

[Cromarty]

Answer me this. If you guys are no longer in our region because it has been liberated and that liberation is still in place because we have chosen not to repeal it; then how in the hell can The Greater German Reich password our region?

You've got me there. That made absolutely no sense. I blame the lack of sleep; see, I've been logging a lot of hours trying to defend your region against the UDL for the past couple of days.

In any event, you're completely wrong about the future of your region. This liberation resolution has put it on the map

Because a region named Chrsitmas wasn't on the fucking map already.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

You've got me there. That made absolutely no sense. I blame the lack of sleep; see, I've been logging a lot of hours trying to defend your region against the UDL for the past couple of days.

In any event, you're completely wrong about the future of your region. This liberation resolution has put it on the map

Because a region named Chrsitmas wasn't on the fucking map already.

I didn't know of its existence before this resolution (mainly because I never bothered to search for it, but hey ho).

[Cromarty]

Because a region named Chrsitmas wasn't on the fucking map already.

I didn't know of its existence before this resolution (mainly because I never bothered to search for it, but hey ho).

To be fair, you aren't a 'classical' raider so to speak, so it wouldn't really be on the map for you.

[Bears Armed]

"Asgard running Christmas? That's preposterous... What would be next, Mount Olympus running Ramadan?"
[/slightly-confused IC bear]

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

I did not goade anybody into posting here.

I find it funny that at first the complain is that no native supports it.

Then its that only one native supported it.

Then its that the native was forced to support it.

I tire of this nonsense.

I love this argument.

First you say 'No natives oppose us.'

Then one says 'Uh, actually guys, I don't want this.'

Then you say 'Oh he doesn't matter! Mahaj must've forced him to post!'

Someone, please remind me where I asked for a native to come forward. Please find that for me, as I'm fairly sure it doesn't exist in this thread. I don't ask because I know if you prod the natives enough, as the first post ever by the native in question here was surely prodded to do, they will respond. One native voice does not an entire proposal support. If it's honestly true that the native here posted without any prodding, I'll eat that point. Does it change the argument-not one bit. One native in a region of 2-10 inactive nations before the invasion is not exactly a stable crux to rest the argument of "They natives want it!" on.

I would like to see my previous point addressed as well: what does this one, inactive native lose by joining a refounded region?

EDIT: On a completely random note, look where all this defender/raider garbage has gotten this proposal. The previous Liberation proposal had 4 pages total at the end of voting, while this is already well into 13 pages because defender/raider sniping. /justathought

[Cromarty]

Someone, please remind me where I asked for a native to come forward. Please find that for me, as I'm fairly sure it doesn't exist in this thread. I don't ask because I know if you prod the natives enough, as the first post ever by the native in question here was surely prodded to do, they will respond. One native voice does not an entire proposal support. If it's honestly true that the native here posted without any prodding, I'll eat that point. Does it change the argument-not one bit. One native in a region of 2-10 inactive nations before the invasion is not exactly a stable crux to rest the argument of "They natives want it!" on.

Two natives now.

I would like to see my previous point addressed as well: what does this one, inactive native lose by joining a refounded region?

All the natives lose the sovereignty of their region to a group that most definitely can't be trusted.

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

Two natives now.

I thought I made it clear earlier natives voicing support here is of no concern to me, as they were all inactive up to and including this point, and they have nothing to lose by joining a refounded region, which I will address next. We can move on from that line of thought.

All the natives lose the sovereignty of their region to a group that most definitely can't be trusted.

They lose the sovereignty of a region they didn't control in the first place? Another ludicrous argument. If they wanted sovereignty, why didn't they elect a WA Delegate? They can't claim sovereignty on a region they were completely inactive in. That would be like me claiming I have sovereignty in XKI or Lazarus-you can't just idly reside in a region then claim your region got invaded when your inactive was a primary cause of said invasion. If you want sovereignty in a region, it takes more than sitting there answering issues with a Hermit influence.

[Titiwu]

‘Not active enough!’
Raid excuse generator
rationalises.


FOR the liberation. Titiwu

[Jamie Anumia]

Answer me this. If you guys are no longer in our region because it has been liberated and that liberation is still in place because we have chosen not to repeal it; then how in the hell can The Greater German Reich password our region?

Having the liberation in place would still leave your region in danger of being invaded, and even if the the proposal passes, your region will likely not be liberated by defenders.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

[Mahaj]

Answer me this. If you guys are no longer in our region because it has been liberated and that liberation is still in place because we have chosen not to repeal it; then how in the hell can The Greater German Reich password our region?

Having the liberation in place would still leave your region in danger of being invaded, and even if the the proposal passes, your region will likely not be liberated by defenders.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

Except defenders have liberated it before.

Except that stability over liberty is a crap argument.

[Jamie Anumia]

Having the liberation in place would still leave your region in danger of being invaded, and even if the the proposal passes, your region will likely not be liberated by defenders.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

Except defenders have liberated it before.

Except that stability over liberty is a crap argument.

The ambassador from Jamie Anumia raises her eyebrows and shakes her head.
It's a region which the natives don't care about for 11 months of the year. I just don't see why this liberation is necessary.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

[Mahaj]

Except defenders have liberated it before.

Except that stability over liberty is a crap argument.

The ambassador from Jamie Anumia raises her eyebrows and shakes her head.
It's a region which the natives don't care about for 11 months of the year. I just don't see why this liberation is necessary.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

It's a region which Asgard doesn't care about for 11.5 months of the year.

Who's more inactive now?

[Jamie Anumia]

The ambassador from Jamie Anumia raises her eyebrows and shakes her head.
It's a region which the natives don't care about for 11 months of the year. I just don't see why this liberation is necessary.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

It's a region which Asgard doesn't care about for 11.5 months of the year.

Who's more inactive now?

You are now just grasping at straws, you know as well as I do that the natives would be/are just as inactive or even more so than Asgard.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

[Mahaj]

It's a region which Asgard doesn't care about for 11.5 months of the year.

Who's more inactive now?

You are now just grasping at straws, you know as well as I do that the natives would be/are just as inactive or even more so than Asgard.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

No, because Asgard stated their plans to hold things 'around christmastime to celebrate the winter'.

and that the details haven't been finalized. So they really don't know what they're doing.

Doesn't sound like somebody you'd elect to be the head of culture, why should we vote for them now?

[Diasporal]

I think Christmas should enjoy sovereignty.

[Jamie Anumia]

You are now just grasping at straws, you know as well as I do that the natives would be/are just as inactive or even more so than Asgard.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -

No, because Asgard stated their plans to hold things 'around christmastime to celebrate the winter'.

and that the details haven't been finalized. So they really don't know what they're doing.

Doesn't sound like somebody you'd elect to be the head of culture, why should we vote for them now?

Basically, it sounds to me like you are just basing your whole proposal on your look of trust for Asgard, I believe they've already said they would allow natives (inactive or otherwise) re-entry to their region.
- WA Ambassador - Treacle Smith -