[PASSED] Liberate Christmas

[Eist]

Raiders should not be allowed to occupy and lock-down any innocent region, regardless of size and activity. To give a seemingly innocent region the chance for autonomous rule as opposed to raider oppression is something I will almost always support.

FOR

[Cromarty]

I have a question to Mahaj, has any native asked you or any part of UDL to liberate them?

Has any native asked Asgard to invade and refound the region?

[Cormac Stark]

I have a question to Mahaj, has any native asked you or any part of UDL to liberate them?

Has any native asked Asgard to invade and refound the region?

We asked Mahaj first.

[Drop Your Pants]

I always thought Christmas was just occupied with puppets, and that there'd never been any community there.

Used to share a founder with The Youngworld so it had a bit of a community, if only by accident

Edit: you know its bad when a mod tells you to fix your tags

[Mahaj]

Has any native asked Asgard to invade and refound the region?

We asked Mahaj first.

You raided first.

[Venicos]

Would you please answer the question Mahaj? The facts should be known.

[Fear the Navy]

Mahaj has stated on IRC that he writes these proposals to increase his SC Resolution count. Any proposal by him should be taken with a grain of salt.

I just don't understand why these SC Proposals have to be so poor in quality if the reasoning is sound.

[Cromarty]

Mahaj has stated on IRC that he writes these proposals to increase his SC Resolution count. Any proposal by him should be taken with a grain of salt.

I just don't understand why these SC Proposals have to be so poor in quality if the reasoning is sound.

Tell me, what SC Proposals have you authored recently?

And who is it that's hiding behind this puppet?

[Fear the Navy]

Mahaj has stated on IRC that he writes these proposals to increase his SC Resolution count. Any proposal by him should be taken with a grain of salt.

I just don't understand why these SC Proposals have to be so poor in quality if the reasoning is sound.

Tell me, what SC Proposals have you authored recently?

And who is it that's hiding behind this puppet?

None, I have too much respect for the SC as an institution to submit anything other than what I feel would be of solid quality.

It's my WA nation and this is a WA institution.

[Eist]

Mahaj has stated on IRC that he writes these proposals to increase his SC Resolution count. Any proposal by him should be taken with a grain of salt.

It's probably an easy point for Mahaj, which I'm sure he will cherish and put on his CV for potential future employers, but that does not negate the fact that this proposal is worth considering.

You can trash Mahaj all you want, but this is really about the proposal, not who wrote it. Propose to condemn him if you like.

[Cormac Stark]

To answer the question that Mahaj will not: No, natives did not ask us to occupy and refound Christmas. They also have not asked us not to occupy and refound Christmas.

Now, Mahaj: Have natives asked you specifically or the UDL in general for help?

[Unibot II]

Why did we find it with no WA nations, no WA Regional Delegate, and no posts on the RMB for five months? Don't blame us for your failures in regard to founderless regions.

This isn't me on trial, it's you. However, I never forfeit an opportunity to make a thread about me; it will suffice to say, I care enough about Christmas not to want it to become an imperial colony under your regime without its consent, Cormac, because I believe in regional sovereignty, independence and above all else, justice. I do not have enough personal ties or association to desire to be a citizen of the region.

You do not need to be a member of a region to know and actively protest, even intervene when outsiders aren't playing nice with said other region -- that is not only the principles behind defenderism, but also the World Assembly Security Council, humanitarianism and interregional goodwill.

We are not "destroying" the region. We are refounding the region, and your hyperbole doesn't change that. Moreover, if the UDL is so concerned about the future of this region why haven't any of you joined the region and improved it from the inside?

Excuse me? Unlike Cromarty, I *did* ask first. Why do you need to destroy and refound the region to improve it? Surely any sort of restoration project could be done between concerned citizens in Christmas -- if you wanted to be such a concerned citizen, you could have joined the region.

Instead you've moved your raider forces in and have made some cockeyed scheme about "needing to improve the region", hence justifying the region's destruction and refounding, so "Christmas" (what a lovely name for a colony) can be an Asgard colony under the Asgard name. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the blatant holes in your propaganda.

The World Assembly Security Council should not be actively encouraging imperialism whilst it stands for interregional goodwill and peace and thus should be motioning to liberate Christmas from the hands of its foreign aggressors, a.k.a., you: Cormac Stark.

If you want to help the region, Cormac, which I sincerely doubt you do, you would stop this invasion pronto, join the region simply as a member with what friends want to help out and begin developing the region. Perhaps Christmas wants a forum? Organize recruitment? Discuss the possibility of creating a regional government among the natives (with you included in that group once you actively joined as a member) -- like, say, with a staff of elves under Pier Noel. There's all sorts of things you could have done and can still do *without* forcing a refound and subjecting the region to an overbearing foreign imperial power; the fact that you insist on doing this, via the imperial route, demonstrates your true colours and intention.

To me, this is sounding like another AoSS. situation. The UDL are just wanting to hold the region to ransom so the region will be dependent on the defender groups in the future for protection.

Excuse me, but the UDL wanted to liberate Alliance of Socialist States because the natives didn't want the Red Army there. Little Basses specifically telegrammed me to ask for the UDL to liberate the region. Unfortunately, we were unable to liberate, but Little Basses has taken the opportunity to change the password so that it is relatively safe from invaders, including left-leaning ones, in the future.

These stories about us wanting more regions to liberate are entirely bogus; we seriously have enough founderless regions to keep us busy, even if we'd be so inclined to care more about the existence of opportunities to defend than native security, which we don't. The same goes for Christmas.

If these claims made by the raiders about their intentions turn out to be untrue then the natives can always found a region with a similar name that will have the added protection of an active founder.

Yes, because if there's anything the Security Council should be doing, it's giving the aggressors the shadow of the doubt instead of the natives and, of course, giving an "oops!", when a little oversight like a group's region slipping into the hands of imperialists.

[Cromarty]

To answer the question that Mahaj will not: No, natives did not ask us to occupy and refound Christmas. They also have not asked us not to occupy and refound Christmas.

Now let's get an actual answer to questions I've asked of Asgard in two different places, and gotten avoidances or ignored:

Whilst Asgard may claim it wants to make Christmas a 'cultural hub' of Nationstates, and may indeed be sincere in these claims, can Asgard provide any examples of forcibly taken regions becoming such 'hubs', either Asgard 'protected' or others?

Can you reveal your plan for making Christmas a 'cultural hub' of NS?

Can you explain just how you plan to keep it active? To keep it a 'cultural hub'?

If Asgard wants to 'ensure [Christmas]... is not raided again and again' then why not let a native refound it?

And what assurances can Asgard give that it's aims are, like it implies, 'noble'?

[Fear the Navy]

Mahaj has stated on IRC that he writes these proposals to increase his SC Resolution count. Any proposal by him should be taken with a grain of salt.

It's probably an easy point for Mahaj, which I'm sure he will cherish and put on his CV for potential future employers, but that does not negate the fact that this proposal is worth considering.

You can trash Mahaj all you want, but this is really about the proposal, not who wrote it. Propose to condemn him if you like.

I don't think any low quality SC resolution deserves considering, particularly when they are written to boost resolution counts.

AWARE that Christmas is a region which many people treasure due to its special name

It reminds me of a movie I was watching recently, where the CEO says "There are three ways to make a living in this business: be first, be smarter, or cheat.". I just don't like the idea of these SC liberations which are written to be first, why can't there be more discussion and must it always be "well, it would be nice if it was a better proposal... but we can just go with this...".

[Unibot II]

Now, Mahaj: Have natives asked you specifically or the UDL in general for help?

That's a red herring and you know it: have the natives asked to have their region to be hijacked, destroyed and refounded under your imperial regime? While both sides motion to get testimonies from the sleepy natives, I don't see why we should give you and your aggressors, the shadow of the doubt. I give one group the advantage when not all of the answers have come to light and that's the native community; they're not awake right now (as far as I know), so I'm going to fight for their region's security from interregional imperialists like you, until they tell me it's not necessary -- I don't see why Mahaj or the World Assembly Security Council should feel differently unless either is inclined to side with imperialists by default.

[Fear the Navy]

Now, Mahaj: Have natives asked you specifically or the UDL in general for help?

That's a red herring and you know it: have the natives asked to have their region to be hijacked, destroyed and refounded under your imperial regime? While both sides motion to get testimonies from the sleepy natives, I don't see why we should give you and your aggressors, the shadow of the doubt. I give one group the advantage when not all of the answers have come to light and that's the native community; they're not awake right now (as far as I know), so I'm going to fight for their region's security from interregional imperialists like you, until they tell me it's not necessary -- I don't see why Mahaj or the World Assembly Security Council should feel differently unless either is inclined to side with imperialists by default.

Who is we? Personally I'm one person.

[Unibot II]

That's a red herring and you know it: have the natives asked to have their region to be hijacked, destroyed and refounded under your imperial regime? While both sides motion to get testimonies from the sleepy natives, I don't see why we should give you and your aggressors, the shadow of the doubt. I give one group the advantage when not all of the answers have come to light and that's the native community; they're not awake right now (as far as I know), so I'm going to fight for their region's security from interregional imperialists like you, until they tell me it's not necessary -- I don't see why Mahaj or the World Assembly Security Council should feel differently unless either is inclined to side with imperialists by default.

Who is we? Personally I'm one person.

I'm going to wager a bet, you're not a native of Christmas since you've been too busy helping The Black Hawks raid St. Abbaddon and The New Inquisition raid Goauld System Lords according to your Regional Happenings and my memory too.

But then again, that alleged ex-founder of Land of the Liberals is still singing in CTE-land about the injustice of his region being saved and such. So I've certainly heard stupider propaganda.

[Fear the Navy]

Who is we? Personally I'm one person.

I'm going to wager a bet, you're not a native of Christmas since you've been too busy helping The Black Hawks raid St. Abbaddon and The New Inquisition raid Goauld System Lords according to your Regional Happenings and my memory too.

But then again, that alleged ex-founder of Land of the Liberals is still singing in CTE-land about the injustice of his region being saved and such. So I've certainly heard stupider propaganda.

That has nothing to do with who "we" is...

[Venicos]

This isn't me on trial, it's you. However, I never forfeit an opportunity to make a thread about me; it will suffice to say, I care enough about Christmas not to want it to become an imperial colony under your regime without its consent, Cormac, because I believe in regional sovereignty, independence and above all else, justice. I do not have enough personal ties or association to desire to be a citizen of the region.

Well in fact Uni, no one is on trial as of right now. And yes we all know you're more than willing to step into the spotlight and be the center of attention. Now Unibot believe it or not I believe in justice too, and frankly I am saddened by the fact that such a region has gone dead without any government, any community. Now as you said, neither side has been contacted by the natives looking for support or asking for us to go away. That is because they are asleep or indifferent. You say we should join the region and make internal improvements? With what might I ask? There is no community to become a part of. What we propose is to refound the region, open it up to the public letting anyone in and make it a center for winter themed events and holiday celebrations. Heck I'll even invite you to it Unibot. We have asked all natives to come back after the refounding. We did not overthrow anything, we are simply establishing a government and even more important, a community for which the natives and anyone else who wishes to partake to enjoy where there was none.

[Mahaj]

Mahaj has stated on IRC that he writes these proposals to increase his SC Resolution count. Any proposal by him should be taken with a grain of salt.

Give proof.

This isn't me on trial, it's you. However, I never forfeit an opportunity to make a thread about me; it will suffice to say, I care enough about Christmas not to want it to become an imperial colony under your regime without its consent, Cormac, because I believe in regional sovereignty, independence and above all else, justice. I do not have enough personal ties or association to desire to be a citizen of the region.

Well in fact Uni, no one is on trial as of right now. And yes we all know you're more than willing to step into the spotlight and be the center of attention. Now Unibot believe it or not I believe in justice too, and frankly I am saddened by the fact that such a nation has gone dead without any government, any community. Now as you said, neither side has been contacted by the natives looking for support or asking for us to go away. That is because they are asleep or indifferent. You say we should join the region and make internal improvements? With what might I ask? There is no community to become a part of. What we propose is to refound the region, open it up to the public letting anyone in and make it a center for winter themed events and holiday celebrations. Heck I'll even invite you to it Unibot. We have asked all natives to come back after the refounding. We did not overthrow anything, we are simply establishing a government and even more important, a community for which the natives and anyone else who wishes to partake to enjoy where there was none.

The 'default' is not that you have permission to come in and take over. The default is that you let them be, and to claim that its okay to take over because they didn't say no is stupid.

"He didn't say I couldn't murder him!"

It's probably an easy point for Mahaj, which I'm sure he will cherish and put on his CV for potential future employers, but that does not negate the fact that this proposal is worth considering.

You can trash Mahaj all you want, but this is really about the proposal, not who wrote it. Propose to condemn him if you like.

I don't think any low quality SC resolution deserves considering, particularly when they are written to boost resolution counts.

Proof or shut up.

[Venicos]

The 'default' is not that you have permission to come in and take over. The default is that you let them be, and to claim that its okay to take over because they didn't say no is stupid.

"He didn't say I couldn't murder him!"

The problem is we did not murder anybody. We are refounding this and doing absolutely nothing to change how Christmas was before besides establishing a community. We welcome back all natives. I could understand if we were banjecting all the natives for kicks and giggles, but we welcome back every single one of them.

Not only that but this will prevent this poor nation from being a warzone in the future while we protect it.

[Fear the Navy]

It's what you said on IRC, I don't keep logs of what people say. Usually they are more honest Mahaj.

[Mahaj]

It's what you said on IRC, I don't keep logs of what people say. Usually they are more honest Mahaj.

Rachel?

that you?

[Fear the Navy]

It's what you said on IRC, I don't keep logs of what people say. Usually they are more honest Mahaj.

Rachel?

that you?

Who else would read that huge baloney post by Unibot and then ask, "Who is we?". But I am curious by who he meant by we

Was we the SC?
Was we the UDL?
Was we something else?

[Mahaj]

Rachel?

that you?

Who else would read that huge baloney post by Unibot and then ask, "Who is we?". But I am curious by who he meant by we

Was we the SC?
Was we the UDL?
Was we something else?

"we" seems to refer to the supporters of this proposal.

Which happen to be the people that have Christmas's best interests in mind.