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German Court rules circumcision as assault

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

What do you think of Circumcision?

1) Against both male circumcision AND against fgm
164
40%
2) Against male circumcision and Pro-fgm
6
1%
3) Against FGM and Pro-male circumcision
95
23%
4) Pro both
44
11%
5) Permitting each sacrament, but ONLY when the child is 18.
106
26%
 
Total votes : 415

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Genivaria
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German Court rules circumcision as assault

Postby Genivaria » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:57 am

German court rules religious circumcision on boys an assault
Circumcising young boys on religious grounds amounts to grievous bodily harm, a German court ruled Tuesday in a landmark decision that the Jewish community said trampled on parents' religious rights.

The regional court in Cologne, western Germany, ruled that the "fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity outweighed the fundamental rights of the parents", a judgement that is expected to set a legal precedent.
"The religious freedom of the parents and their right to educate their child would not be unacceptably compromised, if they were obliged to wait until the child could himself decide to be circumcised," the court added.

The case was brought against a doctor in Cologne who had circumcised a four-year-old Muslim boy on his parents' wishes.
A few days after the operation, his parents took him to hospital as he was bleeding heavily. Prosecutors then charged the doctor with grievous bodily harm.

The doctor was acquitted by a lower court that judged he had acted within the law as the parents had given their consent.
On appeal, the regional court also acquitted the doctor but for different reasons.
The regional court upheld the original charge of grievous bodily harm but also ruled that the doctor was innocent as there was too much confusion on the legal situation around circumcision.

The court came down firmly against parents' right to have the ritual performed on young children.
"The body of the child is irreparably and permanently changed by a circumcision," the court said. "This change contravenes the interests of the child to decide later on his religious beliefs."
be illegal?

The decision caused outrage in Germany's Jewish community.
The head of the Central Committee of Jews, Dieter Graumann, said the ruling was "an unprecedented and dramatic intervention in the right of religious communities to self-determination."

The judgement was an "outrageous and insensitive act. Circumcision of newborn boys is a fixed part of the Jewish religion and has been practiced worldwide for centuries," added Graumann.
"This religious right is respected in every country in the world."

Holm Putzke, a criminal law expert at the University of Passau, told the Financial Times Deutschland that the ruling was "enormously important for doctors because for the first time they have legal certainty."
"Unlike many politicians, the court has not allowed itself to be scared off by charges of anti-Semitism or religious intolerance," added Putzke.

The World Health Organisation has estimated that nearly one in three males 15 or over is circumcised. In the United States, the operation is often performed for hygiene reasons on infants.
Thousands of young boys are circumcised every year in Germany, especially in the country's large Jewish and Muslim communities.
The court specified that circumcision was not illegal if carried out for medical reasons.

Now this is just music to my ears, hey Germany who's awesome? YOUR awesome!
Last edited by Genivaria on Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Greed and Death
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Postby Greed and Death » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:59 am

Anti-semitism from germany who is suprised.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:00 pm

greed and death wrote:Anti-semitism from germany who is suprised.

Not sure if serious.
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Samuraikoku
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Postby Samuraikoku » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:01 pm

Agreed with the ruling.

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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:01 pm

Genivaria wrote:
greed and death wrote:Anti-semitism from germany who is suprised.

Not sure if serious.

That's what I thought of, too, sorry.
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New Sparta 1309
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Postby New Sparta 1309 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:03 pm

This may be the best thing Ive heard all day. Yes, it can be argued its a bit anti semetic but this is the 21st century so perhaps we should begin moving away from barbaric self mutilation.

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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:04 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Not sure if serious.

That's what I thought of, too, sorry.

HOW exactly is this antisemitism?
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Jormengand
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Postby Jormengand » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:04 pm

New Sparta 1309 wrote:This may be the best thing Ive heard all day. Yes, it can be argued its a bit anti semetic but this is the 21st century so perhaps we should begin moving away from barbaric self mutilation of minors.

Fixed that for you.
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Phaedrus Imperator
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Postby Phaedrus Imperator » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:04 pm

A good law has been passed‽ Finally!
I think it makes sense. Their efficient German logic works.
greed and death wrote:Anti-semitism from germany who is suprised.

...I really hope that was a joke.

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Postby The Black Forrest » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:04 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Not sure if serious.

That's what I thought of, too, sorry.


You have to admit it's interesting to see who supports the move.

How many of them argue gay marriage is intruding on Religion but this is not?
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
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Wamitoria
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Postby Wamitoria » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:05 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:That's what I thought of, too, sorry.

HOW exactly is this antisemitism?

Because it greatly discriminates against Jewish culture. The German courts can go fuck themselves as far as I am concerned.
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Milks Empire
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Postby Milks Empire » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:06 pm

One's right to practice a religion ends where permanently altering the structure of another's body begins. This court made the right call.

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Dyakovo
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Postby Dyakovo » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:06 pm

Genivaria wrote:German court rules religious circumcision on boys an assault
Circumcising young boys on religious grounds amounts to grievous bodily harm, a German court ruled Tuesday in a landmark decision that the Jewish community said trampled on parents' religious rights.

The regional court in Cologne, western Germany, ruled that the "fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity outweighed the fundamental rights of the parents", a judgement that is expected to set a legal precedent.
"The religious freedom of the parents and their right to educate their child would not be unacceptably compromised, if they were obliged to wait until the child could himself decide to be circumcised," the court added.

The case was brought against a doctor in Cologne who had circumcised a four-year-old Muslim boy on his parents' wishes.
A few days after the operation, his parents took him to hospital as he was bleeding heavily. Prosecutors then charged the doctor with grievous bodily harm.

The doctor was acquitted by a lower court that judged he had acted within the law as the parents had given their consent.
On appeal, the regional court also acquitted the doctor but for different reasons.
The regional court upheld the original charge of grievous bodily harm but also ruled that the doctor was innocent as there was too much confusion on the legal situation around circumcision.

The court came down firmly against parents' right to have the ritual performed on young children.
"The body of the child is irreparably and permanently changed by a circumcision," the court said. "This change contravenes the interests of the child to decide later on his religious beliefs."
be illegal?

The decision caused outrage in Germany's Jewish community.
The head of the Central Committee of Jews, Dieter Graumann, said the ruling was "an unprecedented and dramatic intervention in the right of religious communities to self-determination."

The judgement was an "outrageous and insensitive act. Circumcision of newborn boys is a fixed part of the Jewish religion and has been practiced worldwide for centuries," added Graumann.
"This religious right is respected in every country in the world."

Holm Putzke, a criminal law expert at the University of Passau, told the Financial Times Deutschland that the ruling was "enormously important for doctors because for the first time they have legal certainty."
"Unlike many politicians, the court has not allowed itself to be scared off by charges of anti-Semitism or religious intolerance," added Putzke.

The World Health Organisation has estimated that nearly one in three males 15 or over is circumcised. In the United States, the operation is often performed for hygiene reasons on infants.
Thousands of young boys are circumcised every year in Germany, especially in the country's large Jewish and Muslim communities.
The court specified that circumcision was not illegal if carried out for medical reasons.

Now this is just music to my ears, hey Germany who's awesome? YOUR awesome!

Meh... It's a stupid ruling.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:06 pm

Wamitoria wrote:
Genivaria wrote:HOW exactly is this antisemitism?

Because it greatly discriminates against Jewish culture. The German courts can go fuck themselves as far as I am concerned.

Why exactly should religious Jews have the privilege of mutilating a child's genitalia?
Thats like saying that Muslims have a 'right' to cut the heads off of their women who dishonor their family.
Last edited by Genivaria on Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The DNC is better than the GOP like Manslaughter is better than Murder: Seems like a lesser crime, but the victim can't tell the difference.

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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:07 pm

New Sparta 1309 wrote:This may be the best thing Ive heard all day. Yes, it can be argued its a bit anti semetic but this is the 21st century so perhaps we should begin moving away from barbaric self mutilation.

Something being "a bit antisemitic" is like saying a woman is "a bit pregnant." Granted that the practice is barbaric, it is also fundamental to the religious pratices of millions of people. Legislating away religion, even from the judicial bench, does not strike me as a good idea. Education were better.
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Postby The Black Forrest » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:07 pm

Milks Empire wrote:One's right to practice a religion ends where permanently altering the structure of another's body begins. This court made the right call.


Well that's your opinion.

Why do outsiders get to define what is right?
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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Wamitoria
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Postby Wamitoria » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:07 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Wamitoria wrote:Because it greatly discriminates against Jewish culture. The German courts can go fuck themselves as far as I am concerned.

Why exactly should religious Jews have the privilege of mutilating a child's genitalia?

Why exactly should you accuse my family and most families in America of abusing their children?
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:08 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:That's what I thought of, too, sorry.


You have to admit it's interesting to see who supports the move.

How many of them argue gay marriage is intruding on Religion but this is not?

Indeed.
Wash Your Damned Hands!

Freedom ... or cake. ~ Ashmoria (RIP)
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo

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Olthar
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Postby Olthar » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:08 pm

greed and death wrote:Anti-semitism from germany who is suprised.

What's, ultimately, more important? Maintaining ancient and outdated religious practices or preventing the horrible and excruciating pain caused to babies? I'm sorry but if opposing circumcision means I'm anti-Semitic, then hand my my Nazi arm band because I'm not going to stand by and let people effectively torture their children simply because their religion tells them to.
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Wamitoria
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Postby Wamitoria » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:09 pm

Olthar wrote:
greed and death wrote:Anti-semitism from germany who is suprised.

What's, ultimately, more important? Maintaining ancient and outdated religious practices or preventing the horrible and excruciating pain caused to babies?

I'm sorry, I don't remember any excruciating pain.
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Milks Empire
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Postby Milks Empire » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:09 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Milks Empire wrote:One's right to practice a religion ends where permanently altering the structure of another's body begins. This court made the right call.

Well that's your opinion.
Why do outsiders get to define what is right?

By that logic, human sacrifice is A-OK.

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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:09 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Wamitoria wrote:Because it greatly discriminates against Jewish culture. The German courts can go fuck themselves as far as I am concerned.

Why exactly should religious Jews have the privilege of mutilating a child's genitalia?
Thats like saying that Muslims have a 'right' to cut the heads off of their women who dishonor their family.


Then convert to Judaism and work to change it.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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Samuraikoku
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Postby Samuraikoku » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:09 pm

Farnhamia wrote:Something being "a bit antisemitic" is like saying a woman is "a bit pregnant." Granted that the practice is barbaric, it is also fundamental to the religious pratices of millions of people. Legislating away religion, even from the judicial bench, does not strike me as a good idea. Education were better.


The court does state the following, however:

The regional court in Cologne, western Germany, ruled that the "fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity outweighed the fundamental rights of the parents", a judgement that is expected to set a legal precedent.
"The religious freedom of the parents and their right to educate their child would not be unacceptably compromised, if they were obliged to wait until the child could himself decide to be circumcised," the court added.


I find this to be reasonable, and it wouldn't go against education, nor legislating the practice away.

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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:10 pm

Milks Empire wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:Well that's your opinion.
Why do outsiders get to define what is right?

By that logic, human sacrifice is A-OK.


Who is practicing human sacrifice?
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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Wamitoria
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Postby Wamitoria » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:10 pm

Milks Empire wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:Well that's your opinion.
Why do outsiders get to define what is right?

By that logic, human sacrifice is A-OK.

...

ALL. OF. MY. HATE.
Wonder where all the good posters went? Look no further!

Hurry, before the Summer Nazis show up again!

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