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by Galiantus » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:39 pm
Benjamin Franklin wrote:"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch."
Ballotonia wrote:Testing is for sissies. The actual test is to see how many people complain when any change is made ;)
by Klaus Devestatorie » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:54 pm
by Riemstagrad » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:28 pm
Klaus Devestatorie wrote:Leave founders alone. There's exactly one way that a new founder should be appointed and it is through refoundation.
by Rich and Corporations » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:51 pm
Riemstagrad wrote:Klaus Devestatorie wrote:Leave founders alone. There's exactly one way that a new founder should be appointed and it is through refoundation.
i agree with this.
There should be found a way to give 'natives' an opportunity to play an active role when their region, or an allied region is under attack. Tooling with the founder-system doesn't accomplish that and it might summon some ugly monsters...
I still think a system that carries a delegate-change over to the next update, with an intermediate 'special' period where battle and politics can take place, can be a possible solution.
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by Kogvuron » Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:29 pm
by Xanthal » Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:44 pm
Riemstagrad wrote:I still think a system that carries a delegate-change over to the next update, with an intermediate 'special' period where battle and politics can take place, can be a possible solution.
Rich and Corporations wrote:Maybe embassies could support WA delegates, somehow, by recognizing a regional government?
by Unibot II » Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:47 pm
Xanthal wrote:Riemstagrad wrote:I still think a system that carries a delegate-change over to the next update, with an intermediate 'special' period where battle and politics can take place, can be a possible solution.Rich and Corporations wrote:Maybe embassies could support WA delegates, somehow, by recognizing a regional government?
I must point out that neither of these ideas empower natives so much as they empower defenders and like-minded outsiders to do more to counter raiders. Maybe they're good ideas regardless, but they still put the fate of a region in the hands of nearly everyone except the common players who live there, which is precisely the sort of thinking that has led to natives being so impotent in the first place. To clarify, I'm not arguing against letting outside forces play a role in the fate of a region, just for giving residents of that region tools to compete with the outsiders.
Vocenae wrote:Unibot, you have won NS.
General Halcones wrote:Look up to Unibot as an example.
by Xanthal » Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:55 pm
Unibot II wrote:The problem is any power given to native delegates is going to give power to raider delegates -- the game only distinguishs between raiders and natives on the basis of influence. Making it increasingly harder to liberate.
by Galiantus » Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:12 pm
Xanthal wrote:Unibot II wrote:The problem is any power given to native delegates is going to give power to raider delegates -- the game only distinguishs between raiders and natives on the basis of influence. Making it increasingly harder to liberate.
So stop making every tool in a Founderless region the exclusive property of the Delegate. As long as the Delegate is the only player who can do anything, we're never going to break out of the conundrum of how to design an algorithm that perfectly distinguishes between natives and non-natives. Such an algorithm is impossible. What we can do is use the system of Influence we already have- or a tweaked version of it- to establish a distribution of power: either direct (referendums) or indirect (something along the lines of a recall election for the Delegate).
Benjamin Franklin wrote:"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch."
Ballotonia wrote:Testing is for sissies. The actual test is to see how many people complain when any change is made ;)
by Unibot II » Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:24 pm
Vocenae wrote:Unibot, you have won NS.
General Halcones wrote:Look up to Unibot as an example.
by Galiantus » Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:52 pm
Unibot II wrote:Or what about a cap-and-trade system for influence that would require non-updaters in pile groups to at least be active and trading. There could be a limit on how much influence they could trade to someone in a day.
Benjamin Franklin wrote:"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch."
Ballotonia wrote:Testing is for sissies. The actual test is to see how many people complain when any change is made ;)
by Charlotte Ryberg » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:50 am
Gest wrote:Sichuan Pepper wrote:I would like to see the game evolve in some way to include the third party of the R&D game. Without them (the nations in the regions under attack / defence) there would be no game. I hope they have a good representation at the summit. I have to wonder if given the chance to opt out of the R&D game altogether how many founderless regions would do that. Right now the only options to those players are to refound or move. Refounding involves risk and forces natives to take action in response to constant threats. Moving is also a somewhat forced action as it is due to the threat of invasions. Both of those in my opinion are forced upon Civilians as a responsive action to the R&D game. Something they already do not want to take part in but are forced to take one of three evils.
Stay and be invaded / defended constantly
Risk trying to refound
Give up and move.
Ideal would be a fourth option made open to them.
Natives hardly need more opt-outs. They have plenty of opt-outs they can; move, refound, password, and recruit more WA members. They have plenty of protections as well with influence and liberations. Natives assume the risk of R/D coming into their region when they reside in founderless regions and don't deserve any additional protections on top of everything they already have.
by The Bruce » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:05 pm
Crazy girl wrote:You already complain that too often the same regions are invaded. What is the cause of this? Too few targets. What would your suggestions do? Create even less targets. So either more regions get hit over and over and....yeah, or there are so few targets left that invading is killed off. As for Space, I've seen it raided since 2003/4, and it's still around. You worry too much.
by Crushing Our Enemies » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:59 pm
Xanthal wrote:Unibot II wrote:The problem is any power given to native delegates is going to give power to raider delegates -- the game only distinguishs between raiders and natives on the basis of influence. Making it increasingly harder to liberate.
So stop making every tool in a Founderless region the exclusive property of the Delegate. As long as the Delegate is the only player who can do anything, we're never going to break out of the conundrum of how to design an algorithm that perfectly distinguishes between natives and non-natives. Such an algorithm is impossible. What we can do is use the system of Influence we already have- or a tweaked version of it- to establish a distribution of power: either direct (referendums) or indirect (something along the lines of a recall election for the Delegate).
Crushing Our Enemies wrote:I might be in support of a way for natives to use influence to access the regional controls in a limited way, perhaps limited to removing passwords and removing nations from the ban list. Since they do not have the legitimacy that a delegate has, they would naturally have to expend influence at a MUCH higher rate to do such a thing, perhaps 50 or 75 times as much (and in the case of removing nations from the ban list, have to expend influence where a delegate would not have to at all...) Perhaps there would also be a requirement to be at a certain influence level, say, Eminence Grise.
I would definitely not support giving non-delegate natives the power to eject, ban, change the flag, WFE, embassies, tags, etc. If this were taken seriously, it would have to be limited to anti-region-destruction. In effect, this would give very high influence natives the power to prevent their region from being totally destroyed. These are defensive measures, designed to hold onto their region, not stop the actual raid. This is crucial - forcing raiders to fight a two front battle against natives and defenders would unbalance the game. I say leave liberations to the defenders, but let the natives fight against any existential threat.
This would naturally have a HUGE effect on intra-regional affairs, particularly in the feeders. If this suggestion were taken seriously, there should definitely be thought put into requiring founders to choose whether this feature will be implemented in their region upon founding. This feature effectively disrupts any kind of democratic system a region might set up. Former delegates would be able to hold onto a bit of power for long after they lose office. Perhaps game created regions should be excepted from this altogether.
In any case, I think it is definitely worth looking into giving some power to access the regional controls to non-delegate residents of a region. A flaw: this would encourage keeping multiple puppets in your region, so that you would have multiple high-influence nations to access the regional controls with. This is a kind of gameplay puppet-wanking that (on its face, at least) doesn't seem quite fair. Requiring WA membership doesn't solve the problem, as the player can transfer membership at virtually any time. If people like this idea, then we need to figure out 1) if this actually is a problem, and 2) if it is, how to solve it.
by The Bruce » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:27 pm
by Bundabunda » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:45 pm
by Galiantus » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:16 pm
The Bruce wrote:-snip-
All you need to do now is to get rid of founders and you can guarantee the death of this game within two years, from the destruction of all the regional communities.
Do we need a return to the anti-griefing rules of 2003? Certainly some form protection for natives is in order.
I think a lot of native rights concerns are dismissed, with regards to the nightly wars between invaders and defenders, because the "gameplay" advocates are an extremely loud and active minority that give the impression that they're a bigger part of the NationStates experience than they actually are. This is especially true when you consider that a lot of their victims (not the ones continually victimized) are completely unaware that this part of the game even exists.
Benjamin Franklin wrote:"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch."
Ballotonia wrote:Testing is for sissies. The actual test is to see how many people complain when any change is made ;)
by Crazy girl » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:04 am
by The Bruce » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:19 pm
by Mallorea and Riva » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:31 pm
The Bruce wrote:You don’t actually even need to have mods playing ‘spot the native’ during every invasion to implement a more native friendly system. You would just have better weighting for influence of long term residents (6+ months of residence) and lower for short term residents.
Granted, this would result in invaders and defenders doing even more to sow potential victim regions with puppets, but it would be more protection than is currently afforded to natives in preventing region destruction.
I would also make it cost influence to shut down and start embassies. It would make it more difficult for invaders to dismantle the diplomatic efforts of a region and use this feature to instead grief the locals. It might also cut down on regions that send out bajillions of meaningless embassy requests in a single day.
by Riemstagrad » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:56 pm
Mallorea and Riva wrote:...
Making it cost influence would also make it more difficult for defenders or natives to fix once they retake control of their region. It works fine the way it is now, by leaving it easy to change you take away the significance of changing it.
by Mallorea and Riva » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:24 pm
Riemstagrad wrote:Mallorea and Riva wrote:...
Making it cost influence would also make it more difficult for defenders or natives to fix once they retake control of their region. It works fine the way it is now, by leaving it easy to change you take away the significance of changing it.
it must be significant enough today, seeing how often embassies and tags are removed/spammed.
by Galiantus » Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:53 pm
Mallorea and Riva wrote:Riemstagrad wrote:
it must be significant enough today, seeing how often embassies and tags are removed/spammed.
Considering how simple it is to fix it becomes trivial. We do it, but it is fixable without any trouble. If you add influence into the equation fixing it becomes more problematic.
Benjamin Franklin wrote:"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch."
Ballotonia wrote:Testing is for sissies. The actual test is to see how many people complain when any change is made ;)
by Xanthal » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:18 pm
Galiantus wrote:Influence is meant to be a limitation on game-changing events within regions, not a limitation on communication of those events. However, I would not mind if influence had more political use to the average player than simply as a protection against their delegate. Whatever happens to military gameplay in the next few months, I hope that regional delegates retain the power to control the RMB, WFE, tags and embassies.
by Usual People In Life » Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:50 am
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