FTLi and you. FT OOC Discussion.

[Auman]

I have been in the OOC debate thread and I've decided that this is a necessity. We need to actually discuss what an FTLi is and what it does. There has been debate that certain FTLi only defeats specific FTL drives. Well that doesn't make a lick of sense to me, considering there has never been any definitive category of FTLi aside from the typical, generalized, Star Wars canon and theoretical nonsense that usually dictates this game.

In my opinion, FTLi directly ties into the Fractal theory that is ever present in this game, the theory that was first introduced by Scolopendra in the old, bad, days to explain how there can be an infinite number of Earths, etc. FTLi, in my mind, is a device that enforces reality and the laws of normal, every day, physics. It's also a gentleman's agreement that prevents threads from spinning out of control into the usually shit storms that they tend to become, with or without FTLi.

So, without further ado.. How does your FTLi work?

[Telros]

Good idea, Auman. Although it will probably get hairy; the argument thread on Jolt got hairy when this was brought up.

My FTLi is one I have decided to use to be fair and allow me to grow. I don't have a name for it, but it's basically a system that takes in data about an FTL, say the jump drives from Babylon 5. We analyze the data of the ship and the energy frequencies and such used by its drive to open the portal to the dimension it uses to go FTL. Once we get enough data to mimic the frequency, we put it into our FTLi system that basically emits a frequency that would block the reaction that causes the ship to go to FTL. Using this system puts me at a disadvantage, since I am limited by only the drives I have in my system. But I can learn from other encounters, as I am learning with Kilrany right now, and eventually add them to the my library. I feel this is a fair way to do it, and I can rp learning it instead of a blanket FTLi. I understand the purpose behind it but I have stuff in place in case people try to spam fleets or do the stupid stuff blanket FTLi is designed to stop.

[Orthodox Gnosticism]

I agree with Telros, and utilize a similar approach to FTLi. For me, as most nations I RP with use A "Window" FTL, such as hyperspace, wormholes, Transwarp, basically anything that has a little shiny graphic that opens before the ship emerges, my FTLi attempts to stop the formation of these windows.

However the over use of FTLi, especially blanket ones has caused quite a few players to begin creating countermeasures to FTLi's. Total Blanket FTLi's in my opinion are borderline Godmode. Each player needs to learn from the past, and it should be difficult to raise a defense without at least one prior encounter.

[The Turian Hierarchy]

Catch-all FTLi, to me, is a similar proposition to that of a microwave refrigerator. Bear with me.

Vast numbers of physics-bending systems are used throughout science-fiction, and by extension here, to achieve speeds in excess of light. Now a large number of these get around relativity by simply 'leaving the universe' and going to a place where such theories simply do not apply. Wormholes, hyperspace, alternative dimensions, and all that. Others are less straightforward, such as warp drive, element zero cores, tachyon drives, and all that. Even when they are similar in effect and purpose, these systems often operate in drastically different ways.

Attempting to create a single device that, for example, prevents the formation of a singularity, prevents space-warp, prevents the function of mass effect fields, prevents beamed propulsion, and stops tachyons from existing, to name but a few, is like trying to use a microwave to heat AND cool your food. It cannae be done. You can't just have an 'FTLi field', for you would need multiple different technologies operating in multiple different ways to have any impact on the various methods FTL is achieved, assuming that some could be blocked at all. Star Wars uses some kind of artificial gravity well to interfere with hyperspace, which is fine. How does that affect the formation of a gravitational singularity, however, which by all logic would actually become easier to form?

[Telros]

@Turian Hierarchy:

One, I like your name, I see we both like Mass Effect.

Two, that's why my system doesn't do a blanket. It analyzes the FTL that is coming in or being used, and if it matches one we have on record, it employs a field that prevents THAT kind of FTL. If more than one nation is there, and different FTL's are being used, then different ships in my navy will have to put up different fields. It's hard, but then unless you have allies with you, fighting multiple enemies by yourself is going to be difficult.

[The Turian Hierarchy]

Thanks. Yes, Mass Effect is the awesome.

And while your system sounds reasonable, it doesn't sound any more feasible than the blanket ones really. One field projector can't simply project multiple different types of fields, any more than you can re-jig an electromagnet to become a graviton generator or a particle accelerator. You'd have to analyse the form of FTL being used, design a system to interrupt it (which doesn't even need to be a 'field' necessarily, depending on what it's doing) and build one to do the job. Your ships would end up flying around with numerous different systems, each one designed to interrupt a specific type of propulsion. Whether you could activate each one simultaneously would depend on how much power your ship has available and your own style of play.

Then again, as the entire idea is somewhat daft when it comes to certain forms of FTL propulsion (not that the idea of FTL itself isn't daft), your reasonable compromise would seem to be the best way to press forward in an environment that insists upon having such things.

[Orthodox Gnosticism]

Telros isn't saying his one system can do it all. In short, what Telros is trying to say is that he builds a new machine to handle FTL X. Then he sees FTL Y, and attempts to make a specific FTLI against Y. It's not all one box, it's more of a bag of marbles. Each similar in function, but each individual and unique.

[Telros]

Yeah I know it's a bit ridiculous, like when Kilrany said "what if someone says their FTL doesn't have a frequency?" but I tried to compromise as best as I could and achieve the objective I desire. I'm even willing to allow people to power their way through, if they work it out with me and give me a reasonable explanation as to how.

[Bryn Shander]

The universe is a lot like a sheet of paper. In order to go faster than light, you need to do put a lot of energy into place to do something to that paper. Fold drives fold the paper and punch through the two layers. Warp drives surf the paper. Hyperdrives, the warp, slipspace, and all that jazz punch a hole in the paper and scoot along under it where normal physics don't apply.

What FTLi does is take that paper and cover it in a bunch of duct tape so that the amount of energy required to bend it or punch through is unattainable.

Obviously, an FTL drive has much more power available to it than a communications system, so a comms system will be even more affected. Ergo, when the FTLi is up you don't get to call for help. You fight with what you've got.

If your ship's power source is tapping hyperspace, you're going to be shit out of luck in an FTLi. Don't like it? Tough shit. If you'd kept things simple instead of plunging balls deep into high science you wouldn't have that problem. If your combat doctrine has you sitting several AU out and firing weapons guided by FTL comms, tough shit. Learn to fight. If your combat doctrine requires the use of tactical FTL, tough shit. Such a doctrine is fatally flawed in a universe with FTLi. Adapt and get over it. If your fleet requires a realtime battlenet to coordinate across lightyears, tough shit. Try getting some officers that can think for themselves. If FTLi ruins your doctrine, your doctrine is flawed. Stop bitching and adapt. Adapt or die.

On the other hand, entanglement is worthless as a communications method regardless of FTLi. Even if the effect did propagate at speeds exceeding the speed of light, you still can't transmit data with it. Any data. All entanglement does is make you look like a douche that's trying to use something they read on Wikipedia to gain an advantage in a game.

[The Turian Hierarchy]

With respect, the analogy makes no sense. How does 'covering the paper with duct-tape' explain how such a system would function? How would such a system drag a ship already outside of 'realspace' back into it? What is the mechanism behind such a catch-all device? How does that mechanism affect numerous, drastically different systems all in one go? You can't come up with such a simplistic and vague analogy, and then (rudely) chastise people for using quantum entanglement in ways that isn't possible. Aside from anything else, that isn't really answering the question of the thread.

[Bryn Shander]

FTLi generally doesn't pull a ship out of otherspace and back into realspace. Star Wars FTLi did because it exploited a safety feature built into the drives and FTL was only possible using established paths. Most general FTLi works by strengthening the fabric of the universe, reality, et cetera just like most FTL works by warping or punching through it. If the fabric is made stronger, it now requires more energy to warp/punch through. FTLi only needs to strengthen it enough that the power needed is unreachable for shipboard systems.

The one exception to pulling ships out of FTL using this FTLi method is warp/Alcubierre drives. Since they actually ride a bubble of realspace, when they hit the strengthened area the bubble ceases to be.

[The Ctan]

My FTLi does not exist - the closest thing I may or may not (some places have it, some don't, I've yet to decide which) claim is some freaky dimensional-sculpting that prevents bombs just appearing in my cities, and suchlike though it'd be more like a Culture 'Trapdoor' system than anything else, and not an FTLi. Otherwise, tac-jumping is go, much as it annoys me.

Oh, wait, there's some plot devices that makes 40K warp transit impossible, that I've got tucked away, but don't deploy (and have no plans to; the only time it's come up is Chronosia wanting to steal one).

The closest thing I have to FTLi with any nation (excluding the Time Lords, who're so wankarrific as to be far outside the confines of this thread) is Vorlon Prime, which has something that one could call sargassoes in (its) hyperspace, that 'becalm' ships, and other navigational hazards. Some of that may be their creation, other parts may be their reason for being there. Either way, it doesn't affect most peoples' FTL drives anyway.

[The Ctan]

Also, on Bryn's 'this is how FTLi works' bit (I note it's not 'this is how my FTLi works) - I've a question - actually, quite a few but I'll keep it narrowly defined:

Why do you claim it 'the amount of energy is unattainable' to break through it?

[Bryn Shander]

Because a drive is going to be designed for a specific power rating, with maybe 150% of that rating attainable to compensate for fluctuations and emergencies. If the energy requirement for punching through is now 300% or 500%, you're going to be boned. It's all a matter of engineering standards and multipliers. The energy required for penetrating the fabric of the universe should be more or less constant depending on location, so it shouldn't be hard to figure out that if drive a requires $energy to do it, drives b and c should be around the same ballpark. At that point the FTLi just has to take that ballpark and make it higher by a few times.

[Rethan]

On the whole, I don't really worry about FTLi. So long as you have a good enough reason why I can't jump to FTL speeds I'll go with it. If you take the time to scan my drives or hack a computer then deploy a method which is specifically tailored to my drives or would work against them then I'm okay with you stopping me. My only problem is that I don't see my FTL system as fitting in with the wider range. At least, not what I've seen on NS.

Most FTL drives used seem to bend space/time itself. Be it switching dimensions, "bending" space (I see Bryn Shander's paper analogy as a good way of putting it actually...) or whatever, they all seem to rely on bending the las of reality in a big way. Mine is very localised. Reduce mass to zero, bring back "imaginary" mass and then use regular engines to accelerate indefinitely and pretty much instantaneously. The idea is that it's undetectable, but not perfect. I'm pretty much stuck travelling a pre-determined and mostly straight line. The point I'm trying to make is that with the wide variety of possible FTL methods, there really isn't a viable catch-all FTLi method.

That been said, I have no doubt that there are FTLi systems to stop me (or anybody for that matter) accelerating. Pulling a ship out of FTL is a different matter entirely and one I'm not entirely happy about. Realistically by the time a ship is targeted at FTL speeds, it's gone way out of range unless the system is ever present and passive. I know for plot reasons they have to exist (stop a huge thousand ship warfleet jumping into your system), but I still don't like them.

Of course, the Plot is all powerful, so I guess common sense and science must take a back seat to the Plot...

[The Ctan]

Because a drive is going to be designed for a specific power rating, with maybe 150% of that rating attainable to compensate for fluctuations and emergencies. If the energy requirement for punching through is now 300% or 500%, you're going to be boned. It's all a matter of engineering standards and multipliers. The energy required for penetrating the fabric of the universe should be more or less constant depending on location, so it shouldn't be hard to figure out that if drive a requires $energy to do it, drives b and c should be around the same ballpark. At that point the FTLi just has to take that ballpark and make it higher by a few times.

So... your FTLi is overcome if someone just over-engineers their drives (which, by the by, certain of us already do - my stardrives are big expensive monstrosities that I make a big fuss over not letting anyone see, and are the major bottleneck on starship production, etc etc) more than you expect?

[Midlonia]

I get around FTLi by... not using FTL to travel about the galaxy. I use a type of time-bending compound which simply means I don't have to go to FTL, I simply manipulate the fourth dimension to shift about.

Only thing is there's only 4 of them at the moment that uses said drive, but the fleet is being retrofitted, and will eventually have it as standard, thus meaning talk of "Tough shit" to FTLi deployment is simply negated.

Blueprints and the necessary materials are available to suitably friendly [and those who want to be friendly] states.

Simples *meerkat squeak*

[Rethan]

I get around FTLi by... not using FTL to travel about the galaxy. I use a type of time-bending compound which simply means I don't have to go to FTL, I simply manipulate the fourth dimension to shift about.

Only thing is there's only 4 of them at the moment that uses said drive, but the fleet is being retrofitted, and will eventually have it as standard, thus meaning talk of "Tough shit" to FTLi deployment is simply negated.

Blueprints and the necessary materials are available to suitably friendly [and those who want to be friendly] states.

Simples *meerkat squeak*

You have earned my eternal respect for that reference.

Also, I tend to take the same approach unless someone actually has a good reason for using an FTLi against me. Either explain why it works and if I agree then happy days. If it's a load of bull that won't under any circumstanes work, then "tough shit".

[Allied Governments]

If by FTLi you mean devices that keep a ship from escaping via Sub-Space (what I use) would be Gravity Well Projectors.

If you mean FTL travel in general, I use Shaw-Fujikawa Space (colloquially referred to as Slip-Space, Sub-Space, or Hyperspace.)

[Bryn Shander]

Because a drive is going to be designed for a specific power rating, with maybe 150% of that rating attainable to compensate for fluctuations and emergencies. If the energy requirement for punching through is now 300% or 500%, you're going to be boned. It's all a matter of engineering standards and multipliers. The energy required for penetrating the fabric of the universe should be more or less constant depending on location, so it shouldn't be hard to figure out that if drive a requires $energy to do it, drives b and c should be around the same ballpark. At that point the FTLi just has to take that ballpark and make it higher by a few times.

So... your FTLi is overcome if someone just over-engineers their drives (which, by the by, certain of us already do - my stardrives are big expensive monstrosities that I make a big fuss over not letting anyone see, and are the major bottleneck on starship production, etc etc) more than you expect?

Brute forcing your way through by overpowering the FTLi is possible, obviously, but not viable in most cases. After all, to put extra power into your FTL drive you have to take it from somewhere else, be it weapons, shields, life support, or other important things that draw a lot of power. Not really the best idea in combat most of the time.

[The Ctan]

Mmm. I think we're at least vaguely getting onto the same page.

As an aside, though, the idea that life support should take up masses of power is basically a Star Trek thing. Unless you're going 40K-ish with battles that last hours, you probably wouldn't need to keep air recyling or heating running during a battle - lighting, of course, is an exception. I expect Artifical gravity might use substantially more power than 'life support.'

[Bryn Shander]

Mmm. I think we're at least vaguely getting onto the same page.

As an aside, though, the idea that life support should take up masses of power is basically a Star Trek thing. Unless you're going 40K-ish with battles that last hours, you probably wouldn't need to keep air recyling or heating running during a battle - lighting, of course, is an exception. I expect Artifical gravity might use substantially more power than 'life support.'

Well, I store the atmosphere before combat and don't use artificial gravity in the first place, so life support isn't an issue for me either, but even then you still don't want to be turning off the shields and weapons to get out of Dodge while in combat. It'll probably result in you being forcibly sent to another plane of existence alright, but not in the fashion that you were hoping for.

[Feazanthia]

As was brought up in the Argument Thread, wouldn't attempting to stop the curvature of local space-time pretty much throw gravity itself out the window?

I wouldn't want to be around any stellar body once that happens.

If your FTLi works in such a way, by keeping space-time from being bent, then you've created both a weapon of mass destruction on an unparalleled scale, and a limitation on your own combat doctrine. Because no ship is going to be able to approach a celestial object planet size or above without shutting down their FTLi, or risk said body drifting apart. And if you do that near a star, well then that drifting apart means instant supernova.

[Rethan]

As was brought up in the Argument Thread, wouldn't attempting to stop the curvature of local space-time pretty much throw gravity itself out the window?

I wouldn't want to be around any stellar body once that happens.

If your FTLi works in such a way, by keeping space-time from being bent, then you've created both a weapon of mass destruction on an unparalleled scale, and a limitation on your own combat doctrine. Because no ship is going to be able to approach a celestial object planet size or above without shutting down their FTLi, or risk said body drifting apart. And if you do that near a star, well then that drifting apart means instant supernova.

.... You have given me an ebil, ebil plan.

On a more related note, I would assume seeing as people tend to ignore reallife physics in bending time/space anyway, that such an occurence could be explained away in some manner. A failsafe which switches off FTLi before that event occurs, or that the FTLi systems are designed to avoid affecting stellar bodies.

[Feazanthia]

As was brought up in the Argument Thread, wouldn't attempting to stop the curvature of local space-time pretty much throw gravity itself out the window?

I wouldn't want to be around any stellar body once that happens.

If your FTLi works in such a way, by keeping space-time from being bent, then you've created both a weapon of mass destruction on an unparalleled scale, and a limitation on your own combat doctrine. Because no ship is going to be able to approach a celestial object planet size or above without shutting down their FTLi, or risk said body drifting apart. And if you do that near a star, well then that drifting apart means instant supernova.

.... You have given me an ebil, ebil plan.

On a more related note, I would assume seeing as people tend to ignore reallife physics in bending time/space anyway, that such an occurence could be explained away in some manner. A failsafe which switches off FTLi before that event occurs, or that the FTLi systems are designed to avoid affecting stellar bodies.

Yes yes. The concept of FTLi bombs has been rattling around in several of our heads for a few months now.

But I'm one who says, if you're going to accept relativity, you accept the whole bloody thing. If you need to come up with a way to get around relativity, you have to accept relativity as true. And, according to relativity, gravity is how we interpret the warping of local space-time by matter (simplified version). Thus, if you have a method to "unwarp" space-time, rendering most forms of FTL ineffective, you also undo gravity.


At the end of the day, inhibitor systems in NationStates were devised as a way to stop the "i warp into ur atmosphere and n00k j00", or the infamous "missile teleports into ship, no survivors" (something I myself was guilty of, by the by). Since then, it has spun horribly out of control. Ideally we wouldn't need FTLi, because no one would pull those kind of dick moves without working it out as part of the plotline with the receiving party first. What was first a contrivance for dealing with n00bs has mutated horribly into such things as the "IRON Curtain" and the "Veil of Tears". Personally I hate it, but everyone uses it, so fuck it.