Should men and women be treated dfferently?

[Shikkago]

That being said, I do really really hate feminazis. I think men are just as oppressed as women by gender norms that keep them in a much stricter role (ie being afraid to behave in "effeminate" manners, like taking ballet classes, for fear the other boys will bully you), and I think it's really counter-productive to hate men and masculinity. Feminists need to reach out more to men, respect masculinity as much as femininity or gender neutral behaviors. Men need to be treated equally, too.

1) Feminists are already the ones who are fighting against such sexism.
2) How about instead of telling feminists that they ought to do more work and clean up more messes, how about...YOU do it? You reach out. You speak up. You fight it. If you can't be bothered to thank feminists for doing all the work they're already doing for you, then at least have the decency to shut the fuck up and help out sometimes.

Dude, I DO! I was speaking of MYSELF inclusive in the term "feminists" there. Hell, they can't shut me up! I speak out all the time, I got to demos and other events, I write & perform, I do a lot of things, you don't know me at all, you're making an awful lot of assumptions.

I AM grateful, very very grateful, to the feminists and gay rights activists who came before me! sheesh. Just cuz I don't agree with people who are jerks to men doesn't men that I am somehow anti-feminist. So take it down a notch.

To elaborate, I love an fight for gender equality, I hate and fight against misogyny, transphobia AND misandry. All I'm saying is that there's lots of people like me who appreciate gender as a spectrum and respect EVERYBODY on that spectrum, including He-Men, long as they ain't women-haters.

There are lots of male feminists out there, and some of them have been made to feel bad by some female feminists. The term "feminazis" refers to such who need to lighten up and who demonize all men. By the way, some people like me who are on the trans spectrum have been made to feel excluded by feminazis, too.a

[Flameswroth]

Please. You wouldn't know it to watch those shows, but Mr. and Mrs. Beaver were probably having a great deal of sex when the kids weren't around. People weren't as public about it back then, but all those baby boomers obviously came from somewhere.

It isn't the quantity of sex I was commenting on so much as the mutual enjoyment and 'spice' in their sex life. The Cleavers probably were very conventional in that regard, which is something that, as I said, I find to be a damn shame when looking at Mrs Cleaver.

And I HATE having the door held open for me like that, it's condescending, and it kinda flies in the face of my own desire to be treated EQUALLY. I've literally had men refuse to walk through a door I held open for them, I guess because they found that emasculating. This shows that it's not really about being nice, it's about feeling superior to me.

Recently I took a girl out on a date to a nice restaurant here in town. When I picked her up, I opened her door for her. She thanked me politely, but I noticed that as I went over to the driver's side, she'd lean across the middle and open my door for me, too. It made me a little worried, because it occurred to me that maybe she wasn't too keen on having the door opened for her, and was trying to even the scales a bit. Then again, maybe she's used to cars without automatic locks. At any rate, I was hoping I didn't offend her.

Things didn't work out in the end. It was a shame, really; she was quite beautiful and intelligent. Worked as a therapist at a psychatric ward.

[Geniasis]

It isn't the quantity of sex I was commenting on so much as the mutual enjoyment and 'spice' in their sex life. The Cleavers probably were very conventional in that regard, which is something that, as I said, I find to be a damn shame when looking at Mrs Cleaver.

Again though, what do we actually know about the conventional sex life of the average 50s couple? Not very much, I'd wager.

[Persian Cilicia]

In today's society, women are treated better than men, often getting a less harsh sentence for crime, men are expected to open the door for women, women (and children) are the first priority in the case of a ship sinking or another emergency, and have more power in deciding whatever or not to have children. Do you support these distinctions? Or should men and women be treated the same.

Given that there are significant mental, emotional, and physiologic differences between the sexes, a distinctive approach would not be out of order. I personally think Hamurrabi's code dealt with the issues quite well.

Ah yes, the most pressing concern of our era. Ships sinking.

Quick, telegraph the Post, I've just heard news from my habidasher that a steam ship has run aground off the coast of Prussia!

It's spelled "haberdasher". And your faux-archaic attitude rings hollow, better luck next time bud.

[Shikkago]

Recently I took a girl out on a date to a nice restaurant here in town. When I picked her up, I opened her door for her. She thanked me politely, but I noticed that as I went over to the driver's side, she'd lean across the middle and open my door for me, too. It made me a little worried, because it occurred to me that maybe she wasn't too keen on having the door opened for her, and was trying to even the scales a bit. Then again, maybe she's used to cars without automatic locks. At any rate, I was hoping I didn't offend her.

Things didn't work out in the end. It was a shame, really; she was quite beautiful and intelligent. Worked as a therapist at a psychatric ward.

Yea, the problem for straight boys is that a lot of straight girls actually really do require that kind of treatment on dates, and other girls loathe it, so it's kinda a minefield. I guess the best thing to do is either ask "you don't mind if I get the door for ya?" or just do what you did and try it and see how she reacts. If you get to the door first and hold it that isn't sexist as long as you don't balk if she holds it for you next time.

[Shikkago]

Given that there are significant mental, emotional, and physiologic differences between the sexes, a distinctive approach would not be out of order. I personally think Hamurrabi's code dealt with the issues quite well.

this is scientifically quite debatable, if not completely false.

[Dempublicents1]

Pretty much this. The same old pathetic sexism, wherein men and women are "encouraged" to conform to a mythical family structure that has never been common or popular, or even particularly reasonable, but we're all supposed to pretend that said "encouragement" isn't discrimination or inequality. Yawn.

Don't be silly. It isn't discrimination or inequality because you'll be able to do whatever you want. You'll just be taught from birth that it isn't really your place and seen as an anomaly and most likely looked down upon for not fitting into the right stereotype, that's all.

[Shikkago]

Pretty much this. The same old pathetic sexism, wherein men and women are "encouraged" to conform to a mythical family structure that has never been common or popular, or even particularly reasonable, but we're all supposed to pretend that said "encouragement" isn't discrimination or inequality. Yawn.

Don't be silly. It isn't discrimination or inequality because you'll be able to do whatever you want. You'll just be taught from birth that it isn't really your place and seen as an anomaly and most likely looked down upon for not fitting into the right stereotype, that's all.

looking down on people and telling them that they shouldn't do certain things because it's not "their place" IS discrimination and inequality (albeit social rather than legal perhaps).

[Flameswroth]

Don't be silly. It isn't discrimination or inequality because you'll be able to do whatever you want. You'll just be taught from birth that it isn't really your place and seen as an anomaly and most likely looked down upon for not fitting into the right stereotype, that's all.

looking down on people and teaching them that they shouldn't do certain things because it's not "their place" IS discrimination and inequality (albeit social rather than legal perhaps).

It would probably be pertinant that this juncture that dempublicents' comment is more than dripping with irony.

In fact, the post was blended with four delicious flavors of sarcasm, then dipped in an insincerity sauce, breaded with mock seriousness, then deep fried in scalding, trans-fat-free-sarcasm oil.

[Shikkago]

looking down on people and teaching them that they shouldn't do certain things because it's not "their place" IS discrimination and inequality (albeit social rather than legal perhaps).

It would probably be pertinant that this juncture that dempublicents' comment is more than dripping with irony.

In fact, the post was blended with four delicious flavors of sarcasm, then dipped in an insincerity sauce, breaded with mock seriousness, then deep fried in scalding, trans-fat-free-sarcasm oil.

ah. sorry, my bad for responding when I had only just skimmed the preceding posts. d'oh!

(mmm, deep fried sarcasm.)

unsarcasitcally, most pertinent, nice to know s/he wasn't serious!

[Dempublicents1]

In fact, the post was blended with four delicious flavors of sarcasm, then dipped in an insincerity sauce, breaded with mock seriousness, then deep fried in scalding, trans-fat-free-sarcasm oil.

Love it. Sigged. =)

[Shikkago]

In fact, the post was blended with four delicious flavors of sarcasm, then dipped in an insincerity sauce, breaded with mock seriousness, then deep fried in scalding, trans-fat-free-sarcasm oil.

Love it. Sigged. =)

niiice

[Geniasis]

Given that there are significant mental, emotional, and physiologic differences between the sexes, a distinctive approach would not be out of order. I personally think Hamurrabi's code dealt with the issues quite well.

[multiple citations needed]

It's spelled "haberdasher". And your faux-archaic attitude rings hollow, better luck next time bud.

See, it's really cute when a novice attempts to be a condescending snob to someone like Neo Art, who condescends sublimely. It's like, to borrow a friend's words, being shat upon by Zeus.

I look forward to the return-fire.

[The Congregationists]

Yea, the problem for straight boys is that a lot of straight girls actually really do require that kind of treatment on dates, and other girls loathe it, so it's kinda a minefield. I guess the best thing to do is either ask "you don't mind if I get the door for ya?" or just do what you did and try it and see how she reacts. If you get to the door first and hold it that isn't sexist as long as you don't balk if she holds it for you next time.

Before I dive into this gong-show of a thread, which I intend to do in the next day or two, I just want to point out that this post is the best so far. Both in terms of the actual ideological content shown, which demonstrates a balanced, nuanced and deep comprehension of the issues involved, and in terms of deeper sincerity. You're not here to prove yourself superior to those who don't share your cultural preferences, which given the views you express, is rather refreshing. Great post.