Some questions on health care

[Robustian]

By the term right, I mean something like the 1st Amendment...

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

"Right" is only used once, but it seems to imply that the freedom of speech is a right.

So, if health care is a "right", how can it be regulated, limited, budgeted, and policy-rationed?

Nobody thinks that the "right to peaceably assemble" means that tax dollars have to pay for the travel to, accomodation of, and needs during...peaceable assembly.

Nor does anyone think that public funding of anyone who wants to "make a speech" is required to have the right of freedom of speech.

So, how can the "right" to health care include public funding... and official rationing and controlling of who gets what?

[Tubbsalot]

It's not a right, but it is an extremely good thing for the state to provide. A healthy country is a productive country is a wealthy country. And the public sector, somewhat paradoxically, is more efficient at providing healthcare than the private sector is.

[Intangelon]

Yes. Check the preamble:

"We the People, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, ensure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common Defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to Ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

It seems to me that the "general welfare" would include basic health.

[Tubbsalot]

Good point, actually, looks like it is a right after all.

[Anarchic-Marxist]

look this is the american way...let people with money prosper and let the stupid,weak,and poor suffer

[The Romulan Republic]

By the term right, I mean something like the 1st Amendment...

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

"Right" is only used once, but it seems to imply that the freedom of speech is a right.

So, if health care is a "right", how can it be regulated, limited, budgeted, and policy-rationed?

Nobody thinks that the "right to peaceably assemble" means that tax dollars have to pay for the travel to, accomodation of, and needs during...peaceable assembly.

Nor does anyone think that public funding of anyone who wants to "make a speech" is required to have the right of freedom of speech.

So, how can the "right" to health care include public funding... and official rationing and controlling of who gets what?

While the Declaration of Independence is not a legally binding document, I could argue that at least essential medical care falls under the "Life" part of "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness." Ie, an inalienable right. Of course you could argue that by denying Health Care one is not taking away life, merely refusing to help continue it. But at some point it becomes almost the same thing, and in any case, that doesn't make it morally ok for anyone to have to go without health care. Poor people are not inherently bad people, after all, and no one should have to choose between going untreated or going bankrupt.

[Parthenon]

The general welfare clause doesn't prove shit. Health care is not a enumerated power of the federal government and it certainly isn't necessary or proper to ensuring them. If anything, it should be left up to the states to handle (as Governor Romney (R) has with Massachusetts)

[Intangelon]

The general welfare clause doesn't prove shit. Health care is not a enumerated power of the federal government and it certainly isn't necessary or proper to ensuring them. If anything, it should be left up to the states to handle (as Governor Romney (R) has with Massachuessettes)

10th Amendment.

[Parthenon]

The general welfare clause doesn't prove shit. Health care is not a enumerated power of the federal government and it certainly isn't necessary or proper to ensuring them. If anything, it should be left up to the states to handle (as Governor Romney (R) has with Massachuessettes)

10th Amendment.

Yes, which is why I said "If anything, it should be left up to the states to handle"

[Rezaxushan]

The general welfare clause doesn't prove shit. Health care is not a enumerated power of the federal government and it certainly isn't necessary or proper to ensuring them. If anything, it should be left up to the states to handle (as Governor Romney (R) has with Massachuessettes)

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

This sums it up. Universal Healthcare would greatly contribute to the United States's "general welfare" as now, people would be afforded Healthcare without a price.

[Ferretia Prime]

In ye Old Days Health Care was Avalible to all, up until 300 years ago when Commerce began to slowly grow into it is today, it was generally everyone in a town helps one another rather that going for Cash. So a town Doctor was usually for all.

I live in the United Kingdom, the National Health Service is a wonderful thing.

Everyone deserves health care, all humans are the same.

My 2 Cents.

[Intangelon]

The general welfare clause doesn't prove shit. Health care is not a enumerated power of the federal government and it certainly isn't necessary or proper to ensuring them. If anything, it should be left up to the states to handle (as Governor Romney (R) has with Massachuessettes)

Also, are we to assume that anything invented or standardized after the Constitution was written cannot ever be a right?

[Neu Leonstein]

In ye Old Days Health Care was Avalible to all, up until 300 years ago...

Ahem...are you aware of what "health care" constituted back then?

And more importantly, do you mean to claim that in 1709 the poor didn't die of diseases and injuries that the rich would have been successfully treated for?

[Intangelon]

The general welfare clause doesn't prove shit. Health care is not a enumerated power of the federal government and it certainly isn't necessary or proper to ensuring them. If anything, it should be left up to the states to handle (as Governor Romney (R) has with Massachuessettes)

10th Amendment.

Yes, which is why I said "If anything, it should be left up to the states to handle"

My bad. I meant the 9th.

And the states have pretty much fucked it up wholesale.

[Cameroi]

right or wrong, there's damd little excuse for any government in any form to exist without that sort of thing. i mean the whole reason people got togather and started villages and all that, was to be able to help each other out.

so regardless of what anyone thinks anyone owes anyone or not, there's just no other point in governments and society existing.

[Parthenon]

The general welfare clause doesn't prove shit. Health care is not a enumerated power of the federal government and it certainly isn't necessary or proper to ensuring them. If anything, it should be left up to the states to handle (as Governor Romney (R) has with Massachuessettes)

Also, are we to assume that anything invented or standardized after the Constitution was written cannot ever be a right?

Healthcare has been around since the dawn of civilization. It is not a new invention, nor is it anything our founding fathers did not understand. THe only ones advocating such a revisionist look at the document are those too damn lazy to pay for their own care, work for their care, or ... have no fiscal restraint whatsoever.

[Rezaxushan]

right or wrong, there's damd little excuse for any government in any form to exist without that sort of thing. i mean the whole reason people got togather and started villages and all that, was to be able to help each other out.

so regardless of what anyone thinks anyone owes anyone or not, there's just no other point in governments and society existing.

Okay.

Let's posit that I'm three times your size and I want your property. I'm armed and I'm well-versed in combat. What's to stop me from killing you and taking your property?

[Krytak]

If healthcare is not a right, then why are ambulances required to respond to emergency calls? Why can't they refuse care and transport to those who dont have healthcare?

[United Russian State]

Humans are not born with the right to anything.

[Rezaxushan]

The general welfare clause doesn't prove shit. Health care is not a enumerated power of the federal government and it certainly isn't necessary or proper to ensuring them. If anything, it should be left up to the states to handle (as Governor Romney (R) has with Massachuessettes)

Also, are we to assume that anything invented or standardized after the Constitution was written cannot ever be a right?

Healthcare has been around since the dawn of civilization. It is not a new invention, nor is it anything our founding fathers did not understand. THe only ones advocating such a revisionist look at the document are those too damn lazy to pay for their own care, work for their care, or ... have no fiscal restraint whatsoever.

Dude, Taxing and Spending clause allows for it.

[Tubbsalot]

Healthcare has been around since the dawn of civilization. It is not a new invention, nor is it anything our founding fathers did not understand. THe only ones advocating such a revisionist look at the document are those too damn lazy to pay for their own care, work for their care, or ... have no fiscal restraint whatsoever.

Healthcare, prior to the advent of medical science, wasn't worthy of the name. Pretty big difference between then and now.

[Ferretia Prime]

In ye Old Days Health Care was Avalible to all, up until 300 years ago...

Ahem...are you aware of what "health care" constituted back then?

And more importantly, do you mean to claim that in 1709 the poor didn't die of diseases and injuries that the rich would have been successfully treated for?

The reason that Poor died is the simple fact that they lived in a sespool of grime and disease, poor living conditions. Back then the Definition of Ritch and Poor was a very different thing.

Also, i said UPTO 300 years ago not on the dot 300 years ago.

[Ryadn]

The general welfare clause doesn't prove shit. Health care is not a enumerated power of the federal government and it certainly isn't necessary or proper to ensuring them. If anything, it should be left up to the states to handle (as Governor Romney (R) has with Massachuessettes)

Do we need to go over the Georgia delegation and enumerating rights again?

Why do the states have any obligation to handle health care?

I also don't trust any source that can't spell Massachusetts.

[Rezaxushan]

If healthcare is not a right, then why are ambulances required to respond to emergency calls? Why can't they refuse care and transport to those who dont have healthcare?

This is actually an excellent argument.

[Ferretia Prime]

[/quote]
Healthcare has been around since the dawn of civilization. It is not a new invention, nor is it anything our founding fathers did not understand. THe only ones advocating such a revisionist look at the document are those too damn lazy to pay for their own care, work for their care, or ... have no fiscal restraint whatsoever.[/quote]

Dude, Taxing and Spending clause allows for it.[/quote]

Exactly - payed by taxes. Very Effective and much less expensive than paying.

ALSO, VERY important point - many countries in the EU do NOT allow companies to charge high prices for medical supplies.