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Unionists chase unicorns... again!

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Distruzio
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Ex-Nation

Unionists chase unicorns... again!

Postby Distruzio » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:28 am

In order to avoid further threadjack, I decided to start a new thread so that I might address some issues regarding the War for Southern Independence, secession, and Lincoln's role.

Lincoln overruled the opinion of Chief Justice Taney that suspension of habeas corpus was unconstitutional, and in consequence the mode of the State was, until 1865, a monocratic military despotism. . . . The doctrine of “reserved powers” was knaved up ex post facto as a justification for his acts, but as far as the intent of the constitution is concerned, it was obviously pure invention. In fact, a very good case could be made out for the assertion that Lincoln's acts resulted in a permanent radical change in the entire system of constitutional “interpretation” — that since his time, “interpretations” have not been interpretations of the constitution, but merely of public policy. . . . A strict constitutionalist might indeed say that the constitution died in 1861, and one would have to scratch one's head pretty diligently to refute him.
- Albert Jay Nock, Our Enemy, The State, p. 171

Albert Jay Nock makes quite the good point, I think (admittedly, b/c I agree). As a southern nationalist, I hold the view that the United States gov't is illegitimate. Why? B/c Lincoln killed the constitution that defined the United States. The following will be an explanation of why.

In 1776, thirteen American colonies declared themselves independent from the Empire of Great Britain. They seceded from a political union. Twelve years later, those same colonies, now styled "states," seceded once more from the United States of America as defined by the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union to form yet another new gov't, the United States of America as defined by the Constitution. In 1861, that same Union sought by force of arms to end and subjugate a new political union formed by the southern states that had seceded. This secession, unlike the previous two, was negated by military coercion and domination. The Confederate States of America, a confederation styled in similar course to the United States as defined by the Articles of Confederation, died in 1865 - as did the very constitution that defined the United States of America.

I am unabashedly pro-South. But make no mistake, I am no neo-Confederate. I do not believe that the South should have won the war. I in fact, am pleased that the South lost the war. I say this, despite being a Southern Nationalist, b/c I am also an Anarcho-Capitalist. I oppose the State. The centralized authority that Hobbes described as being vast in scale and eternal as a form of gov't. I oppose the State. The 20th century was a century dominated by the rise of the State. It exists everywhere. Moreover, I oppose socialism as anti-human and evil. The 20th century was also a century dominated by the acceptance of varying degrees of socialism everywhere. From America to the Soviet Union, socialism was adopted. I do not believe my beloved South would have long survived the egalitarian horrors that arose in the aftermath of the Great War and led to the greater horrors of the second World War and the subsequent half century long "cold war." Dixie has been vindicated by her death at the hands of the Union. I am sad she died, but pleased that she escaped the perverting influences of centralizing gov't.

That being said, I in no way approve of the results of the War for Southern Independence. The Glorious Union sought to subjugate a rival republic and inso doing, it destroyed the confederation as was established by the Constitution in 1788, and replaced it with a federation as was established by the new Constitution in 1865 - the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments largely nullified the Bill of Rights and established a new understanding of Federal-state relations. The Glorious Union, and the Constitution died on 27 May 1861 when the first Union troop set foot on Virginia soil. Lincoln is not simply a murderer of people and a destroyer of property, but a destroyer of liberty and ideas as well.

The War for Southern Independence resulted in more than 620,000 deaths (be they combat related or otherwise), more than 400,000 wounded or missing souls, billions of dollars in property damage, and a fundamental alteration of the relationship of power in our gov't. Innovations previously unknown in American life were foisted upon the people of both the Union and the Confederacy. A universal conscription, the income tax, standing armies, an outright embrace of imperialism, and a fiat money banking policy. In her desperation to survive, Dixie turned against her initial stance for liberty and followed the Union down the path towards despotism - hence my belief that she would not have been able to resist 20th century trends that led to more than 150 million deaths in peacetime alone. The War for Southern Independence was unnecessary and, for the Union, quite illegal.

Lincoln was a brilliant lawyer for the railways (see also, Lobbyist), a man of conviction, and a man of words - it cannot be said he was a poor statesman. He may have been repulsive to my sensibilities, but he was, otherwise, a man to be acknowledged. Since he was the progenitor of the invasion and the foremost authority on the legality of the invasion, he and he alone bares responsibility for the horrors resulting from that invasion. Lincoln, much like Mao, and Stalin was guilty of committing genocide. Therefore, given that Lincoln was a lawyer, a superb writer and speaker, and was the foremost authority on the legality of the invasion of the South, I direct all of my criticisms at him and the justifications he used.

I know a number of readers will roll their eyes in exasperation. "Not this again!" They will say. Given that my country (Georgia) and my chosen region demanding my loyalty (the Southland) was absolutely devastated to such a degree that we have yet to fully recover economically, politically, and culturally even 150 years later, and given that there have been absolutely no textual alterations to the Constitution as it was written in 1788 by anyone except to add several new amendments which, for all their powers, never mentioned secession, it is quite understandable why this subject continues to be one of fascination and debate. We cannot get over it b/c the losers of wars do not easily swallow domination. We cannot get over it b/c the issues of the war were never addressed. Even the dismissive references to the Supreme Court cases suggest that this issue cannot be easily laid to rest:

The States are organisms for the performance of their appropriate functions in the vital system of the larger polity, of which, in this aspect of the subject, they form a part, and which would perish if they . . . ceased to perform their allotted work.
- White v Hart (1871)

Without the States in union, there could be no such political body as the United States
- Texas v White (1868)

As a matter of undeniable fact, there has been absolutely no attempt to settle this issue legally. Historically, politically, and culturally settled is not legally settled. Consider that in his inaugural, Lincoln made the following statement:

The power confided in me, will be used to hold, occupy, and possess the property, and places belonging to the government, and to collect the duties and imposts; but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion—no using of force against, or among the people anywhere.


In other words, not even Lincoln, upon assuming the office of president, disputed the right of secession. His primary concern was the collection of duties and imposts. He was demanding that the South pay for its freedom by tribute. Unless of course, "Honest Abe" was being dishonest?

What were Lincoln's legal arguments for invasion? In his Special Message to the Congress, delivered 4 July 1861, Lincoln said:

They invented an ingenious sophism, which, if conceded, was followed by perfectly logical steps, through all the incidents, to the complete destruction of the Union. The sophism itself is, that any state of the Union may, consistently with the national Constitution, and therefore lawfully, and peacefully, withdraw from the Union, without the consent of the Union, or of any other state.


Curious that he, an accomplished lawyer, would consider the words of the progenitor of secessionist initiatives, Thomas Jefferson, and one of Linocln's most admired statesmen, a mere "sophism":

The several states composing the United States of America are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government; but that, by compact, under the style and title of the Constitution of the United States, and of certain amendments thereto, they constituted a general government for general purposes, delegated to that government certain powers, reserving, each state to itself, the residuary mass of right to their own self-government; and that whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void and of no effect


But Lincoln continues with:

This sophism derives much-perhaps the whole—of its currency, from the assumption, that there is some omnipotent, and sacred supremacy, pertaining to a State — to each State of our Federal Union.


Lolwut? I've read alot, alot, alot of secessionist material and I've never come across this nugget except when reading Lincoln's
description of the Union. Lincoln further challenges the perception that the states created the Union by stating that, besides Texas, no state had ever existed outside the Union. Which is strange for an accomplished lawyer to say, although he was a lobbyist so perhaps I give the man too much credit? Lincoln argues that the states were a Union before 1776, remained a Union in 1788, and continued as Union since he alone denied the legality of the secessions in 1861. In doing this, he confuses 4 different understandings of union. The 13 colonies were, it is true, united in their resistance to British innovation and taxation before 1776. But this is no political union and being that there was no murmuring of secession before 4 July 1776, it seems paradoxical that Lincoln should seek legitimacy for his argument by citing the united colonial front against the British as there were no legal documents accounting for secession before 1776. Buddy's opinion here is moot. Secessionist talk never existed. He goes on to cite the union as was "created" by the Declaration of Independence in 1776. It is unlikely that a man of Lincoln's intelligence would have overlooked the not so subtle fact that the Declaration established a legal right of secession from Great Britain as inalienable.

He goes on to cite the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union:

The Articles of this confederation shall be inviolably observed by every state, and the union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a congress of the united states, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every state.
- Article XIII

Yet the thirteenth article stands in contrast to the second article:

Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom and independence and every Power, Jurisdiction and right, which is not by this confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.


Or was it contrast? It seems rather obvious that the Articles established a Union between the several states that was to be perpetual and unalterable while acknowledging the sovereignty, freedom, and independence of each involved. Furthermore, Lincoln's citation is undermined by the fact that the Articles of Confederation were, despite their asserted perpetuity, altered by secession! Recall that the proposed constitution was to take effect upon the ratification of 9 states. Should we consider the remaining 4 states to be a part of a Union they did not originally seek to join? In 1788, there were only 9 states in the Union as defined by the Constitution. Therefore, the new Union seceded from the original Union despite the explicit prohibition on alteration save by unanimous consent found in the aforementioned article. Let us not forget that "perpetual" was mentioned many times in the Articles of Confederation, and that the same generation that ratified the Articles ratified the Constitution. Is "perpetual" mentioned in the Constitution? Go ahead, look. I'll wait. Despite all the copypasta of the Founders between the two documents, they seem to have missed that ever so significant word, "perpetual." Yet we are to assume it to be implied, says Lincoln, by the phrase "a more perfect Union." Forgive me if I require a visual expression of Lincoln's opinion on the matter:

Mod Edit: You are not forgiven.

Another word missing from the Constitutional lexicon? Secession. That's right, secession was never mentioned in the constitution and, given that the 9th and 10th amendments make explicit that any power not mentioned explicitly in reference to the federal gov't of the United States was retained by the individual states, any assertion that secession must be mentioned while perpetual be merely implied is rather vapid... no, that's not quite right... it's fucking stupid.

But now that we've mentioned the 10th amendment, I think we should explore Lincoln's bear shit a bit more. The fact is that in his argument for the illegality of secession and the legality of invasion, he never mentions the 9th nor the 10th amendment at all. In fact, he makes one up, states have no rights that are not expressly stated in the Constitution.

Refer to the above image for an appropriate rendition of Lincoln's logic. He failed to consider:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
- 9th Amendment

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
- 10th Amendment

Now before any of you go off about any more nonsense regarding the Nationalist concept of the Union, consider the fact that the Constitutional Convention considered this little nugget for inclusion:

to call forth the force of the union against any member of the union, failing to fulfil its duty under the articles thereof.


In response, a minor player in the Convention (I rather doubt many have heard of him so I hesitate to mention his name but I shall at the risk of any respectability that this opinion might carry), James Madison, said this:

A Union of the States containing such an ingredient seemed to provide for its own destruction. The use of force against a State, would look more like a declaration of war, than an infliction of punishment, and would probably be considered by the party attacked as a dissolution of all previous compacts by which it might be bound.
- The Records of the Federal Convention, Max Farrand, Vol. 1, pg. 47.

The motion considered was rejected immediately. Thus, the right to secede is included among the "reserved powers" of the several states found in the 10th Amendment. Add to this the historical fact that those states had that right in 1776, and in 1788, and that four states, including New York, maintained an addendum - “the powers of government may be reassumed by the people, whensoever it shall become necessary to their happiness.” Unfortunately, the pain for the Nationalist theory of the Union gets worse when we consider the 2nd Amendment:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.


Now, if we are to consider the historical events that lead to the ratification of the second amendment, and if we accept the rights described in this amendment as legitimate, then it should be no great leap to understand that if it is legitimate for the people to resist the tyranny of their Federal gov't by force of arms, then resistance by peaceful secession is also legitimate. But I'm getting away from the point of this paper -Lincoln's argument for the legality of invasion or rather, the illegality of secession.

Lincoln cited the Supremacy Clause:

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof . . . shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.


and the Guarantee Clause:

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government


Now, if we were to use the supremacy clause as justification for the nullification of secession, then that would obviously beg the question, wouldn't it? The supremacy clause can be used as an argument against secession only if the Constitution requires a state to remain part of the union. Without an "imprisonment clause," the supremacy clause does not apply to a state that has left the Union. Thus, arguments from the supremacy clause assume as a premise exactly what is in dispute: that the state is still part of the Union and thus bound by the supremacy clause. In light of the arguments previously made that the Constitution allows secession, one can just as easily argue that the supremacy clause barred the Union army's invasion of the South! :lol:

Additionally, Lincoln's citation of the Guarantee Clause again, begs the question. Furthermore, he forgot to mention the rest of the clause when he told congress:

If a State may lawfully go out of the Union, having done so, it may also discard the republican form of government; so that to prevent its going out, is an indispensable means, to the end, of maintaining the guaranty mentioned; and when an end is lawful and obligatory, the indispensable means to it, are also lawful, and obligatory.


The remaining bit of the guarantee clause being:

“The Unites States shall . . . protect each of them from Invasion; and on application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence.”


I wonder why old boy didn't mention this? Maybe it was b/c he was planning an invasion himself? Maybe b/c none of the Confederate legislatures had requested his intervention? In fact, when we consider this clause, we find it rather offensive that Lincoln would use this as an argument for invasion of the South (to guarantee a republican form of gov't) when, upon victory, the Southern gov'ts were immediately dissolved and replaced by military governors. Recall again, the aforementioned court cases. While it may be true that the Union was intended to perpetuate by the founders, I rather doubt that they would have approved of military dictatorship as a requirement for the maintenance of that perpetuity. Since the Lincoln administration invalidated the Guarantee Clause by invading the South, any assertion of constitutional authority to prevent secession is equally invalidated.

In Coleman v Tennessee(1879), the Supreme Court defended military occupation on the grounds that:

Though the late war was not between independent nations, but between different portions of the same nation, yet having taken the proportions of a territorial war, the insurgents having become formidable enough to be recognized as belligerants, the same doctrine must be held to apply. The right to govern the territory of the enemy during its military occupation is one of the incidents of war . . . and the character and form of the government to be established depend entirely upon the laws of the conquering State or the orders of its military commander.


Read that again if you got confused. That's right. The Supreme Court is defending the unconstitutional act of military occupation by invoking international law while at the same time denying that the Confederate States were separate nations. To invoke international law instead of United States law is to implicitly acknowledge the validity and legality of secession and the illegality of the invasion. In short, the Supreme Court declared that in order to subjugate the South, it was necessary that Lincoln himself violate the Supremacy Clause by justifying his actions via international law.

Several of you will say that since the Constitution makes no explicit mention of secession, that secession is therefore illegal. I would reply that the constitution also fails to make explicit the mention of invasion. The strongest case against the legality of secession comes, not from the silly supreme court cases mentioned above that are so often cited (neither of which deal squarely with the issue nor do they contain detailed and serious analysis of the issues, arguments, and constitutional clauses one would expect to see in a comprehensive treatment of the issue by the highest court in the land), but in the 14th Amendment.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


Oh wait... did I read that right? Yes I did, in fact. B/c while the 14th Amendment regularly discusses issues surrounding the war, the language present in it necessarily implies that secession is barred. Which obviously implies that secession was a right that was legally enjoyed by the South before the war. Hmmm.... So I suppose that the 14th Amendment does actually help the case for claiming that secession was illegal either, does it? Here's a fun thought, why didn't the men who had just fought a war to nullify secession add into the 14th amendment a provision permanently prohibiting secession?

The fact of the matter is that the invasion and military occupation were illegal, secession was legal. The existence of slavery in before 1865 changes nothing in this regard. Moreover, chattel slavery no longer exists, so it can no longer be used to justify either legally or morally war on a seceding state. Inso doing, the invader creates a new slavery, state slavery. A slavery that dominates us all right now, at this moment. All forms of forced association are forms of slavery. The entire South is now the slave, the Union the master. The war was not fought to end slavery, it was fought to increase it.
Last edited by NERVUN on Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wamitoria
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Postby Wamitoria » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:32 am

I'm just going to post this here...
Alien Space Bats wrote:
Cannot think of a name wrote:

I want you all to read this VERY carefully, as it states unequivocally the reasons why South Carolina seceded. More importantly, it states what would have been required of the Northern states in order to avoid secession and resolve the matter peaceably in a way that satisfied the South.

The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution.

At issue here is the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850, which Northern states refused to obey. Modern "states rights" advocates extol the South's presumed right to "nullify" Federal laws to which they objected, yet they universally ignore the most prominent example of "nullification" in U.S. history: The outraged refusal of Northern government officials to either participate in, collaborate with, or support Southern efforts to break up the Underground Railroad.

I cannot sufficiently stress the degree to which the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 and the Supreme Court decisions supporting it created an intolerable state of affairs within the North. Northerners did not want slavery, did not want their public officials supporting it, and openly sympathized with those who sought to end the South's "peculiar institution"; yet as the decade progressed, it seemed to them as though a Federal government dominated by a Southern-controlled Senate and a Supreme Court largely supportive of slavery was intent on crushing Northern opposition to the practice. The key issue in this rising tide of anger was not what happened in the South; it was the impact of slavery on the North.

In 1842, eight years earlier, the Supreme Court struck down so-called "personal liberty laws" in the North. These laws (among other things) required bounty hunters hired by the South to prove that an individual sought was in fact a runaway slave, often through a jury trial. In Prigg v. Pennyslvania (1842), the Court struck down such laws, although the Court did open the door to the Northern states refusing to permit their officials from participating in efforts to recapture runaway slave.

As an aside, note the particulars of Prigg: Edward Prigg, a bounty hunter, attempted to capture a runaway slave by the name of Margaret Morgan, who was living in York County, Pennsylvania. In his raid on the Morgan home, he carried off Ms. Morgan and her four children, one of whom was born in Pennyslvania as a free citizen. All four children - including the one born in Pennyslvania - were sold on the block.

This strikes at the heart of one of the concerns of Northerners: That bounty hunters would carry off free blacks living in the North and sell them into slavery as well. Part of the reason "personal liberty laws" existed was to require slave-catchers to show that they had the right person. Once due process was taken out of the matter by Prigg, this was no longer possible.

Indeed, after the passage of the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850, in which Federal officials were essentially directed to act as slave-catchers (under penalty of a $1,000 fine and six months imprisonment if they refused), only an affidavit was required to compel action. As Northerners feared, these affidavits were used to "apprehend" flee blacks living in the North without recourse on the part of the newly enslaved individual.

To be fair, it wasn't just the possibility of free blacks living in the North being carried off; Northerners were quite unwilling to see escaped slaves returned. Consider the case of Anthony Burns, whose 1854 arrest provoked a riot in Boston, leaving one Federal Marshal dead after an abolitionist crowd stormed the Federal courthouse in an effort to free Burns; Federal troops were required to remove Burns and return him to Virginia.

But the worst was yet to come. In Dredd Scott v. Sandford (1852), the Supreme Court effectively expanded slavery throughout the United States by effectively ruling that slave-owners could transport their "chattel" to any state and still retain ownership, whatever local law might say about the matter. In essence, States could not ban slavery; they could only ban the purchase and sale of slaves within their territory.

The logical consequences of Dredd Scott - and what would surely follow the ruling - were not lost on Northerners:

"The conspiracy is nearly completed. The Legislation of the Republic is in the hands of this handful of Slaveholders. The United States Senate assures it to them. The Executive power of the Government is theirs. Buchanan took the oath of fealty to them on the steps of the Capitol last Wednesday. The body which gives the supreme law of the land, has just acceded to their demands, and dared to declare that under the charter of the Nation, men of African descent are not citizens of the United States and can not be — that the Ordinance of 1787 was void — that human Slavery is not a local thing, but pursues its victims to free soil, clings to them wherever they go, and returns with them — that the American Congress has no power to prevent the enslavement of men in the National Territories — that the inhabitants themselves of the Territories have no power to exclude human bondage from their midst — and that men of color can not be suitors for justice in the Courts of the United States!"

- The Albany Evening Journal

A sentiment which Abraham Lincoln echoed in his famous "House Divided" speech on June 16th, 1858:

"Put this and that together, and we have another nice little niche, which we may, ere long, see filled with another Supreme Court decision, declaring that the Constitution of the United States does not permit a State to exclude slavery from its limits. ...We shall lie down pleasantly dreaming that the people of Missouri are on the verge of making their State free, and we shall awake to the reality instead, that the Supreme Court has made Illinois a slave State." (emphasis mine)

It was this cold legal reality that propelled the Republican Party into majority status in the election of 1860. Southern apologists can romanticize about it all they like, but it was not South Carolina's back - or the back of any Southern State - that was up against the wall in 1860. It was the North, the free States, that were fighting for their dearest beliefs, for their own legal right to ban an inhuman and obscene institution from their own soil, in the face of a Southern-controlled government that appeared to be on the verge of taking away from them that very power.

And South Carolina's own proclamation makes this clear.

Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States.

Look carefully at what is being said here: The North is in the wrong, it is said, because is has "denounced as sinful the institution of slavery"; the North is in the wrong because is has "denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution". The tense is noteworthy; South Carolina is not protesting what it expects President Lincoln and his Republican House (the Senate still being a bastion of Southern power) to do in the future, but because of what the Northern States have already done.

Namely, oppose slavery - and not just across the West, but throughout their own territory.

Note, too, the complaint that the Northern States "have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States." South Carolina, in citing its reasons for secession, essential says that the North forced its hand by failing to pass laws declaring abolitionist organizations illegal. Nothing could be clearer: South Carolina's price for staying in the Union was the elimination of political liberty throughout the North; in South Carolina's opinion, the North was obliged to not only permit slavery throughout its territory, but to arrest and encarcerate anyone who thought things should be otherwise.

I have no doubt whatsoever which side was fighting for freedom, and which side was fighting for tyranny.
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Distruzio
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Postby Distruzio » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:33 am

Yup, read it before. I read alot of ASB's stuff before. I remain unimpressed.
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Postby New Hayesalia » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:33 am

Dammit, I thought there were real unicorns here. Oh well...

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Postby Andaluciae » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:43 am

Lincoln's actions were in response, and impossible without, the Southern treason and the resulting insurrection. The executive is Constitutionally empowered with broad capabilities in the event of insurrection, in order to restore Constitutional governance. Which Lincoln did quite successfully. To the point where the regional tensions that once divided the country (and the two nations, one government) have been essentially obviated.

There is no point in Southern nationalism, because there is no more southern nation that stands separate from the rest of the US.
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Postby The Cat-Tribe » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:43 am

Distruzio wrote:
In order to avoid further threadjack, I decided to start a new thread so that I might address some issues regarding the War for Southern Independence, secession, and Lincoln's role.

Lincoln overruled the opinion of Chief Justice Taney that suspension of habeas corpus was unconstitutional, and in consequence the mode of the State was, until 1865, a monocratic military despotism. . . . The doctrine of “reserved powers” was knaved up ex post facto as a justification for his acts, but as far as the intent of the constitution is concerned, it was obviously pure invention. In fact, a very good case could be made out for the assertion that Lincoln's acts resulted in a permanent radical change in the entire system of constitutional “interpretation” — that since his time, “interpretations” have not been interpretations of the constitution, but merely of public policy. . . . A strict constitutionalist might indeed say that the constitution died in 1861, and one would have to scratch one's head pretty diligently to refute him.
- Albert Jay Nock, Our Enemy, The State, p. 171

Albert Jay Nock makes quite the good point, I think (admittedly, b/c I agree). As a southern nationalist, I hold the view that the United States gov't is illegitimate. Why? B/c Lincoln killed the constitution that defined the United States. The following will be an explanation of why.

In 1776, thirteen American colonies declared themselves independent from the Empire of Great Britain. They seceded from a political union. Twelve years later, those same colonies, now styled "states," seceded once more from the United States of America as defined by the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union to form yet another new gov't, the United States of America as defined by the Constitution. In 1861, that same Union sought by force of arms to end and subjugate a new political union formed by the southern states that had seceded. This secession, unlike the previous two, was negated by military coercion and domination. The Confederate States of America, a confederation styled in similar course to the United States as defined by the Articles of Confederation, died in 1865 - as did the very constitution that defined the United States of America.

I am unabashedly pro-South. But make no mistake, I am no neo-Confederate. I do not believe that the South should have won the war. I in fact, am pleased that the South lost the war. I say this, despite being a Southern Nationalist, b/c I am also an Anarcho-Capitalist. I oppose the State. The centralized authority that Hobbes described as being vast in scale and eternal as a form of gov't. I oppose the State. The 20th century was a century dominated by the rise of the State. It exists everywhere. Moreover, I oppose socialism as anti-human and evil. The 20th century was also a century dominated by the acceptance of varying degrees of socialism everywhere. From America to the Soviet Union, socialism was adopted. I do not believe my beloved South would have long survived the egalitarian horrors that arose in the aftermath of the Great War and led to the greater horrors of the second World War and the subsequent half century long "cold war." Dixie has been vindicated by her death at the hands of the Union. I am sad she died, but pleased that she escaped the perverting influences of centralizing gov't.

That being said, I in no way approve of the results of the War for Southern Independence. The Glorious Union sought to subjugate a rival republic and inso doing, it destroyed the confederation as was established by the Constitution in 1788, and replaced it with a federation as was established by the new Constitution in 1865 - the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments largely nullified the Bill of Rights and established a new understanding of Federal-state relations. The Glorious Union, and the Constitution died on 27 May 1861 when the first Union troop set foot on Virginia soil. Lincoln is not simply a murderer of people and a destroyer of property, but a destroyer of liberty and ideas as well.

The War for Southern Independence resulted in more than 620,000 deaths (be they combat related or otherwise), more than 400,000 wounded or missing souls, billions of dollars in property damage, and a fundamental alteration of the relationship of power in our gov't. Innovations previously unknown in American life were foisted upon the people of both the Union and the Confederacy. A universal conscription, the income tax, standing armies, an outright embrace of imperialism, and a fiat money banking policy. In her desperation to survive, Dixie turned against her initial stance for liberty and followed the Union down the path towards despotism - hence my belief that she would not have been able to resist 20th century trends that led to more than 150 million deaths in peacetime alone. The War for Southern Independence was unnecessary and, for the Union, quite illegal.

Lincoln was a brilliant lawyer for the railways (see also, Lobbyist), a man of conviction, and a man of words - it cannot be said he was a poor statesman. He may have been repulsive to my sensibilities, but he was, otherwise, a man to be acknowledged. Since he was the progenitor of the invasion and the foremost authority on the legality of the invasion, he and he alone bares responsibility for the horrors resulting from that invasion. Lincoln, much like Mao, and Stalin was guilty of committing genocide. Therefore, given that Lincoln was a lawyer, a superb writer and speaker, and was the foremost authority on the legality of the invasion of the South, I direct all of my criticisms at him and the justifications he used.

I know a number of readers will roll their eyes in exasperation. "Not this again!" They will say. Given that my country (Georgia) and my chosen region demanding my loyalty (the Southland) was absolutely devastated to such a degree that we have yet to fully recover economically, politically, and culturally even 150 years later, and given that there have been absolutely no textual alterations to the Constitution as it was written in 1788 by anyone except to add several new amendments which, for all their powers, never mentioned secession, it is quite understandable why this subject continues to be one of fascination and debate. We cannot get over it b/c the losers of wars do not easily swallow domination. We cannot get over it b/c the issues of the war were never addressed. Even the dismissive references to the Supreme Court cases suggest that this issue cannot be easily laid to rest:

The States are organisms for the performance of their appropriate functions in the vital system of the larger polity, of which, in this aspect of the subject, they form a part, and which would perish if they . . . ceased to perform their allotted work.
- White v Hart (1871)

Without the States in union, there could be no such political body as the United States
- Texas v White (1868)

As a matter of undeniable fact, there has been absolutely no attempt to settle this issue legally. Historically, politically, and culturally settled is not legally settled. Consider that in his inaugural, Lincoln made the following statement:

The power confided in me, will be used to hold, occupy, and possess the property, and places belonging to the government, and to collect the duties and imposts; but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion—no using of force against, or among the people anywhere.


In other words, not even Lincoln, upon assuming the office of president, disputed the right of secession. His primary concern was the collection of duties and imposts. He was demanding that the South pay for its freedom by tribute. Unless of course, "Honest Abe" was being dishonest?

What were Lincoln's legal arguments for invasion? In his Special Message to the Congress, delivered 4 July 1861, Lincoln said:

They invented an ingenious sophism, which, if conceded, was followed by perfectly logical steps, through all the incidents, to the complete destruction of the Union. The sophism itself is, that any state of the Union may, consistently with the national Constitution, and therefore lawfully, and peacefully, withdraw from the Union, without the consent of the Union, or of any other state.


Curious that he, an accomplished lawyer, would consider the words of the progenitor of secessionist initiatives, Thomas Jefferson, and one of Linocln's most admired statesmen, a mere "sophism":

The several states composing the United States of America are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government; but that, by compact, under the style and title of the Constitution of the United States, and of certain amendments thereto, they constituted a general government for general purposes, delegated to that government certain powers, reserving, each state to itself, the residuary mass of right to their own self-government; and that whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void and of no effect


But Lincoln continues with:

This sophism derives much-perhaps the whole—of its currency, from the assumption, that there is some omnipotent, and sacred supremacy, pertaining to a State — to each State of our Federal Union.


Lolwut? I've read alot, alot, alot of secessionist material and I've never come across this nugget except when reading Lincoln's
description of the Union. Lincoln further challenges the perception that the states created the Union by stating that, besides Texas, no state had ever existed outside the Union. Which is strange for an accomplished lawyer to say, although he was a lobbyist so perhaps I give the man too much credit? Lincoln argues that the states were a Union before 1776, remained a Union in 1788, and continued as Union since he alone denied the legality of the secessions in 1861. In doing this, he confuses 4 different understandings of union. The 13 colonies were, it is true, united in their resistance to British innovation and taxation before 1776. But this is no political union and being that there was no murmuring of secession before 4 July 1776, it seems paradoxical that Lincoln should seek legitimacy for his argument by citing the united colonial front against the British as there were no legal documents accounting for secession before 1776. Buddy's opinion here is moot. Secessionist talk never existed. He goes on to cite the union as was "created" by the Declaration of Independence in 1776. It is unlikely that a man of Lincoln's intelligence would have overlooked the not so subtle fact that the Declaration established a legal right of secession from Great Britain as inalienable.

He goes on to cite the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union:

The Articles of this confederation shall be inviolably observed by every state, and the union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a congress of the united states, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every state.
- Article XIII

Yet the thirteenth article stands in contrast to the second article:

Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom and independence and every Power, Jurisdiction and right, which is not by this confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.


Or was it contrast? It seems rather obvious that the Articles established a Union between the several states that was to be perpetual and unalterable while acknowledging the sovereignty, freedom, and independence of each involved. Furthermore, Lincoln's citation is undermined by the fact that the Articles of Confederation were, despite their asserted perpetuity, altered by secession! Recall that the proposed constitution was to take effect upon the ratification of 9 states. Should we consider the remaining 4 states to be a part of a Union they did not originally seek to join? In 1788, there were only 9 states in the Union as defined by the Constitution. Therefore, the new Union seceded from the original Union despite the explicit prohibition on alteration save by unanimous consent found in the aforementioned article. Let us not forget that "perpetual" was mentioned many times in the Articles of Confederation, and that the same generation that ratified the Articles ratified the Constitution. Is "perpetual" mentioned in the Constitution? Go ahead, look. I'll wait. Despite all the copypasta of the Founders between the two documents, they seem to have missed that ever so significant word, "perpetual." Yet we are to assume it to be implied, says Lincoln, by the phrase "a more perfect Union." Forgive me if I require a visual expression of Lincoln's opinion on the matter:

Image

Another word missing from the Constitutional lexicon? Secession. That's right, secession was never mentioned in the constitution and, given that the 9th and 10th amendments make explicit that any power not mentioned explicitly in reference to the federal gov't of the United States was retained by the individual states, any assertion that secession must be mentioned while perpetual be merely implied is rather vapid... no, that's not quite right... it's fucking stupid.

But now that we've mentioned the 10th amendment, I think we should explore Lincoln's bear shit a bit more. The fact is that in his argument for the illegality of secession and the legality of invasion, he never mentions the 9th nor the 10th amendment at all. In fact, he makes one up, states have no rights that are not expressly stated in the Constitution.

Refer to the above image for an appropriate rendition of Lincoln's logic. He failed to consider:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
- 9th Amendment

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
- 10th Amendment

Now before any of you go off about any more nonsense regarding the Nationalist concept of the Union, consider the fact that the Constitutional Convention considered this little nugget for inclusion:

to call forth the force of the union against any member of the union, failing to fulfil its duty under the articles thereof.


In response, a minor player in the Convention (I rather doubt many have heard of him so I hesitate to mention his name but I shall at the risk of any respectability that this opinion might carry), James Madison, said this:

A Union of the States containing such an ingredient seemed to provide for its own destruction. The use of force against a State, would look more like a declaration of war, than an infliction of punishment, and would probably be considered by the party attacked as a dissolution of all previous compacts by which it might be bound.
- The Records of the Federal Convention, Max Farrand, Vol. 1, pg. 47.

The motion considered was rejected immediately. Thus, the right to secede is included among the "reserved powers" of the several states found in the 10th Amendment. Add to this the historical fact that those states had that right in 1776, and in 1788, and that four states, including New York, maintained an addendum - “the powers of government may be reassumed by the people, whensoever it shall become necessary to their happiness.” Unfortunately, the pain for the Nationalist theory of the Union gets worse when we consider the 2nd Amendment:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.


Now, if we are to consider the historical events that lead to the ratification of the second amendment, and if we accept the rights described in this amendment as legitimate, then it should be no great leap to understand that if it is legitimate for the people to resist the tyranny of their Federal gov't by force of arms, then resistance by peaceful secession is also legitimate. But I'm getting away from the point of this paper -Lincoln's argument for the legality of invasion or rather, the illegality of secession.

Lincoln cited the Supremacy Clause:

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof . . . shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.


and the Guarantee Clause:

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government


Now, if we were to use the supremacy clause as justification for the nullification of secession, then that would obviously beg the question, wouldn't it? The supremacy clause can be used as an argument against secession only if the Constitution requires a state to remain part of the union. Without an "imprisonment clause," the supremacy clause does not apply to a state that has left the Union. Thus, arguments from the supremacy clause assume as a premise exactly what is in dispute: that the state is still part of the Union and thus bound by the supremacy clause. In light of the arguments previously made that the Constitution allows secession, one can just as easily argue that the supremacy clause barred the Union army's invasion of the South! :lol:

Additionally, Lincoln's citation of the Guarantee Clause again, begs the question. Furthermore, he forgot to mention the rest of the clause when he told congress:

If a State may lawfully go out of the Union, having done so, it may also discard the republican form of government; so that to prevent its going out, is an indispensable means, to the end, of maintaining the guaranty mentioned; and when an end is lawful and obligatory, the indispensable means to it, are also lawful, and obligatory.


The remaining bit of the guarantee clause being:

“The Unites States shall . . . protect each of them from Invasion; and on application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence.”


I wonder why old boy didn't mention this? Maybe it was b/c he was planning an invasion himself? Maybe b/c none of the Confederate legislatures had requested his intervention? In fact, when we consider this clause, we find it rather offensive that Lincoln would use this as an argument for invasion of the South (to guarantee a republican form of gov't) when, upon victory, the Southern gov'ts were immediately dissolved and replaced by military governors. Recall again, the aforementioned court cases. While it may be true that the Union was intended to perpetuate by the founders, I rather doubt that they would have approved of military dictatorship as a requirement for the maintenance of that perpetuity. Since the Lincoln administration invalidated the Guarantee Clause by invading the South, any assertion of constitutional authority to prevent secession is equally invalidated.

In Coleman v Tennessee(1879), the Supreme Court defended military occupation on the grounds that:

Though the late war was not between independent nations, but between different portions of the same nation, yet having taken the proportions of a territorial war, the insurgents having become formidable enough to be recognized as belligerants, the same doctrine must be held to apply. The right to govern the territory of the enemy during its military occupation is one of the incidents of war . . . and the character and form of the government to be established depend entirely upon the laws of the conquering State or the orders of its military commander.


Read that again if you got confused. That's right. The Supreme Court is defending the unconstitutional act of military occupation by invoking international law while at the same time denying that the Confederate States were separate nations. To invoke international law instead of United States law is to implicitly acknowledge the validity and legality of secession and the illegality of the invasion. In short, the Supreme Court declared that in order to subjugate the South, it was necessary that Lincoln himself violate the Supremacy Clause by justifying his actions via international law.

Several of you will say that since the Constitution makes no explicit mention of secession, that secession is therefore illegal. I would reply that the constitution also fails to make explicit the mention of invasion. The strongest case against the legality of secession comes, not from the silly supreme court cases mentioned above that are so often cited (neither of which deal squarely with the issue nor do they contain detailed and serious analysis of the issues, arguments, and constitutional clauses one would expect to see in a comprehensive treatment of the issue by the highest court in the land), but in the 14th Amendment.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


Oh wait... did I read that right? Yes I did, in fact. B/c while the 14th Amendment regularly discusses issues surrounding the war, the language present in it necessarily implies that secession is barred. Which obviously implies that secession was a right that was legally enjoyed by the South before the war. Hmmm.... So I suppose that the 14th Amendment does actually help the case for claiming that secession was illegal either, does it? Here's a fun thought, why didn't the men who had just fought a war to nullify secession add into the 14th amendment a provision permanently prohibiting secession?

The fact of the matter is that the invasion and military occupation were illegal, secession was legal. The existence of slavery in before 1865 changes nothing in this regard. Moreover, chattel slavery no longer exists, so it can no longer be used to justify either legally or morally war on a seceding state. Inso doing, the invader creates a new slavery, state slavery. A slavery that dominates us all right now, at this moment. All forms of forced association are forms of slavery. The entire South is now the slave, the Union the master. The war was not fought to end slavery, it was fought to increase it.

Give it the fuck up. And, if you are going to argue such tripe, at least have the courage and intellectual honesty to address the arguments I already made in the other thread.

And, by the way, just because you are of racially mixed heritage (as we all are really) doesn't make your apologetics for the Confederacy any less naseauting.
I quit (again).
The Altani Confederacy wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:With that, I am done with these shenanigans. Do as thou wilt.

Can't miss you until you're gone, Ambassador. Seriously, your delegation is like one of those stores that has a "Going Out Of Business" sale for twenty years. Stay or go, already.*snip*
"Don't give me no shit because . . . I've been Tired . . ." ~ Pixies
With that, "he put his boots on, he took a face from the Ancient Gallery, and he walked on down the Hall . . ."

User avatar
Utopia FTW
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Posts: 1533
Founded: Mar 04, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Utopia FTW » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:50 am

The Cat-Tribe wrote:
Distruzio wrote:
In order to avoid further threadjack, I decided to start a new thread so that I might address some issues regarding the War for Southern Independence, secession, and Lincoln's role.

- Albert Jay Nock, Our Enemy, The State, p. 171

Albert Jay Nock makes quite the good point, I think (admittedly, b/c I agree). As a southern nationalist, I hold the view that the United States gov't is illegitimate. Why? B/c Lincoln killed the constitution that defined the United States. The following will be an explanation of why.

In 1776, thirteen American colonies declared themselves independent from the Empire of Great Britain. They seceded from a political union. Twelve years later, those same colonies, now styled "states," seceded once more from the United States of America as defined by the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union to form yet another new gov't, the United States of America as defined by the Constitution. In 1861, that same Union sought by force of arms to end and subjugate a new political union formed by the southern states that had seceded. This secession, unlike the previous two, was negated by military coercion and domination. The Confederate States of America, a confederation styled in similar course to the United States as defined by the Articles of Confederation, died in 1865 - as did the very constitution that defined the United States of America.

I am unabashedly pro-South. But make no mistake, I am no neo-Confederate. I do not believe that the South should have won the war. I in fact, am pleased that the South lost the war. I say this, despite being a Southern Nationalist, b/c I am also an Anarcho-Capitalist. I oppose the State. The centralized authority that Hobbes described as being vast in scale and eternal as a form of gov't. I oppose the State. The 20th century was a century dominated by the rise of the State. It exists everywhere. Moreover, I oppose socialism as anti-human and evil. The 20th century was also a century dominated by the acceptance of varying degrees of socialism everywhere. From America to the Soviet Union, socialism was adopted. I do not believe my beloved South would have long survived the egalitarian horrors that arose in the aftermath of the Great War and led to the greater horrors of the second World War and the subsequent half century long "cold war." Dixie has been vindicated by her death at the hands of the Union. I am sad she died, but pleased that she escaped the perverting influences of centralizing gov't.

That being said, I in no way approve of the results of the War for Southern Independence. The Glorious Union sought to subjugate a rival republic and inso doing, it destroyed the confederation as was established by the Constitution in 1788, and replaced it with a federation as was established by the new Constitution in 1865 - the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments largely nullified the Bill of Rights and established a new understanding of Federal-state relations. The Glorious Union, and the Constitution died on 27 May 1861 when the first Union troop set foot on Virginia soil. Lincoln is not simply a murderer of people and a destroyer of property, but a destroyer of liberty and ideas as well.

The War for Southern Independence resulted in more than 620,000 deaths (be they combat related or otherwise), more than 400,000 wounded or missing souls, billions of dollars in property damage, and a fundamental alteration of the relationship of power in our gov't. Innovations previously unknown in American life were foisted upon the people of both the Union and the Confederacy. A universal conscription, the income tax, standing armies, an outright embrace of imperialism, and a fiat money banking policy. In her desperation to survive, Dixie turned against her initial stance for liberty and followed the Union down the path towards despotism - hence my belief that she would not have been able to resist 20th century trends that led to more than 150 million deaths in peacetime alone. The War for Southern Independence was unnecessary and, for the Union, quite illegal.

Lincoln was a brilliant lawyer for the railways (see also, Lobbyist), a man of conviction, and a man of words - it cannot be said he was a poor statesman. He may have been repulsive to my sensibilities, but he was, otherwise, a man to be acknowledged. Since he was the progenitor of the invasion and the foremost authority on the legality of the invasion, he and he alone bares responsibility for the horrors resulting from that invasion. Lincoln, much like Mao, and Stalin was guilty of committing genocide. Therefore, given that Lincoln was a lawyer, a superb writer and speaker, and was the foremost authority on the legality of the invasion of the South, I direct all of my criticisms at him and the justifications he used.

I know a number of readers will roll their eyes in exasperation. "Not this again!" They will say. Given that my country (Georgia) and my chosen region demanding my loyalty (the Southland) was absolutely devastated to such a degree that we have yet to fully recover economically, politically, and culturally even 150 years later, and given that there have been absolutely no textual alterations to the Constitution as it was written in 1788 by anyone except to add several new amendments which, for all their powers, never mentioned secession, it is quite understandable why this subject continues to be one of fascination and debate. We cannot get over it b/c the losers of wars do not easily swallow domination. We cannot get over it b/c the issues of the war were never addressed. Even the dismissive references to the Supreme Court cases suggest that this issue cannot be easily laid to rest:

- White v Hart (1871)

- Texas v White (1868)

As a matter of undeniable fact, there has been absolutely no attempt to settle this issue legally. Historically, politically, and culturally settled is not legally settled. Consider that in his inaugural, Lincoln made the following statement:



In other words, not even Lincoln, upon assuming the office of president, disputed the right of secession. His primary concern was the collection of duties and imposts. He was demanding that the South pay for its freedom by tribute. Unless of course, "Honest Abe" was being dishonest?

What were Lincoln's legal arguments for invasion? In his Special Message to the Congress, delivered 4 July 1861, Lincoln said:



Curious that he, an accomplished lawyer, would consider the words of the progenitor of secessionist initiatives, Thomas Jefferson, and one of Linocln's most admired statesmen, a mere "sophism":



But Lincoln continues with:



Lolwut? I've read alot, alot, alot of secessionist material and I've never come across this nugget except when reading Lincoln's
description of the Union. Lincoln further challenges the perception that the states created the Union by stating that, besides Texas, no state had ever existed outside the Union. Which is strange for an accomplished lawyer to say, although he was a lobbyist so perhaps I give the man too much credit? Lincoln argues that the states were a Union before 1776, remained a Union in 1788, and continued as Union since he alone denied the legality of the secessions in 1861. In doing this, he confuses 4 different understandings of union. The 13 colonies were, it is true, united in their resistance to British innovation and taxation before 1776. But this is no political union and being that there was no murmuring of secession before 4 July 1776, it seems paradoxical that Lincoln should seek legitimacy for his argument by citing the united colonial front against the British as there were no legal documents accounting for secession before 1776. Buddy's opinion here is moot. Secessionist talk never existed. He goes on to cite the union as was "created" by the Declaration of Independence in 1776. It is unlikely that a man of Lincoln's intelligence would have overlooked the not so subtle fact that the Declaration established a legal right of secession from Great Britain as inalienable.

He goes on to cite the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union:

- Article XIII

Yet the thirteenth article stands in contrast to the second article:



Or was it contrast? It seems rather obvious that the Articles established a Union between the several states that was to be perpetual and unalterable while acknowledging the sovereignty, freedom, and independence of each involved. Furthermore, Lincoln's citation is undermined by the fact that the Articles of Confederation were, despite their asserted perpetuity, altered by secession! Recall that the proposed constitution was to take effect upon the ratification of 9 states. Should we consider the remaining 4 states to be a part of a Union they did not originally seek to join? In 1788, there were only 9 states in the Union as defined by the Constitution. Therefore, the new Union seceded from the original Union despite the explicit prohibition on alteration save by unanimous consent found in the aforementioned article. Let us not forget that "perpetual" was mentioned many times in the Articles of Confederation, and that the same generation that ratified the Articles ratified the Constitution. Is "perpetual" mentioned in the Constitution? Go ahead, look. I'll wait. Despite all the copypasta of the Founders between the two documents, they seem to have missed that ever so significant word, "perpetual." Yet we are to assume it to be implied, says Lincoln, by the phrase "a more perfect Union." Forgive me if I require a visual expression of Lincoln's opinion on the matter:

Image

Another word missing from the Constitutional lexicon? Secession. That's right, secession was never mentioned in the constitution and, given that the 9th and 10th amendments make explicit that any power not mentioned explicitly in reference to the federal gov't of the United States was retained by the individual states, any assertion that secession must be mentioned while perpetual be merely implied is rather vapid... no, that's not quite right... it's fucking stupid.

But now that we've mentioned the 10th amendment, I think we should explore Lincoln's bear shit a bit more. The fact is that in his argument for the illegality of secession and the legality of invasion, he never mentions the 9th nor the 10th amendment at all. In fact, he makes one up, states have no rights that are not expressly stated in the Constitution.

Refer to the above image for an appropriate rendition of Lincoln's logic. He failed to consider:

- 9th Amendment

- 10th Amendment

Now before any of you go off about any more nonsense regarding the Nationalist concept of the Union, consider the fact that the Constitutional Convention considered this little nugget for inclusion:



In response, a minor player in the Convention (I rather doubt many have heard of him so I hesitate to mention his name but I shall at the risk of any respectability that this opinion might carry), James Madison, said this:

- The Records of the Federal Convention, Max Farrand, Vol. 1, pg. 47.

The motion considered was rejected immediately. Thus, the right to secede is included among the "reserved powers" of the several states found in the 10th Amendment. Add to this the historical fact that those states had that right in 1776, and in 1788, and that four states, including New York, maintained an addendum - “the powers of government may be reassumed by the people, whensoever it shall become necessary to their happiness.” Unfortunately, the pain for the Nationalist theory of the Union gets worse when we consider the 2nd Amendment:



Now, if we are to consider the historical events that lead to the ratification of the second amendment, and if we accept the rights described in this amendment as legitimate, then it should be no great leap to understand that if it is legitimate for the people to resist the tyranny of their Federal gov't by force of arms, then resistance by peaceful secession is also legitimate. But I'm getting away from the point of this paper -Lincoln's argument for the legality of invasion or rather, the illegality of secession.

Lincoln cited the Supremacy Clause:



and the Guarantee Clause:



Now, if we were to use the supremacy clause as justification for the nullification of secession, then that would obviously beg the question, wouldn't it? The supremacy clause can be used as an argument against secession only if the Constitution requires a state to remain part of the union. Without an "imprisonment clause," the supremacy clause does not apply to a state that has left the Union. Thus, arguments from the supremacy clause assume as a premise exactly what is in dispute: that the state is still part of the Union and thus bound by the supremacy clause. In light of the arguments previously made that the Constitution allows secession, one can just as easily argue that the supremacy clause barred the Union army's invasion of the South! :lol:

Additionally, Lincoln's citation of the Guarantee Clause again, begs the question. Furthermore, he forgot to mention the rest of the clause when he told congress:



The remaining bit of the guarantee clause being:



I wonder why old boy didn't mention this? Maybe it was b/c he was planning an invasion himself? Maybe b/c none of the Confederate legislatures had requested his intervention? In fact, when we consider this clause, we find it rather offensive that Lincoln would use this as an argument for invasion of the South (to guarantee a republican form of gov't) when, upon victory, the Southern gov'ts were immediately dissolved and replaced by military governors. Recall again, the aforementioned court cases. While it may be true that the Union was intended to perpetuate by the founders, I rather doubt that they would have approved of military dictatorship as a requirement for the maintenance of that perpetuity. Since the Lincoln administration invalidated the Guarantee Clause by invading the South, any assertion of constitutional authority to prevent secession is equally invalidated.

In Coleman v Tennessee(1879), the Supreme Court defended military occupation on the grounds that:



Read that again if you got confused. That's right. The Supreme Court is defending the unconstitutional act of military occupation by invoking international law while at the same time denying that the Confederate States were separate nations. To invoke international law instead of United States law is to implicitly acknowledge the validity and legality of secession and the illegality of the invasion. In short, the Supreme Court declared that in order to subjugate the South, it was necessary that Lincoln himself violate the Supremacy Clause by justifying his actions via international law.

Several of you will say that since the Constitution makes no explicit mention of secession, that secession is therefore illegal. I would reply that the constitution also fails to make explicit the mention of invasion. The strongest case against the legality of secession comes, not from the silly supreme court cases mentioned above that are so often cited (neither of which deal squarely with the issue nor do they contain detailed and serious analysis of the issues, arguments, and constitutional clauses one would expect to see in a comprehensive treatment of the issue by the highest court in the land), but in the 14th Amendment.



Oh wait... did I read that right? Yes I did, in fact. B/c while the 14th Amendment regularly discusses issues surrounding the war, the language present in it necessarily implies that secession is barred. Which obviously implies that secession was a right that was legally enjoyed by the South before the war. Hmmm.... So I suppose that the 14th Amendment does actually help the case for claiming that secession was illegal either, does it? Here's a fun thought, why didn't the men who had just fought a war to nullify secession add into the 14th amendment a provision permanently prohibiting secession?

The fact of the matter is that the invasion and military occupation were illegal, secession was legal. The existence of slavery in before 1865 changes nothing in this regard. Moreover, chattel slavery no longer exists, so it can no longer be used to justify either legally or morally war on a seceding state. Inso doing, the invader creates a new slavery, state slavery. A slavery that dominates us all right now, at this moment. All forms of forced association are forms of slavery. The entire South is now the slave, the Union the master. The war was not fought to end slavery, it was fought to increase it.

Give it the fuck up. And, if you are going to argue such tripe, at least have the courage and intellectual honesty to address the arguments I already made in the other thread.

And, by the way, just because you are of racially mixed heritage (as we all are really) doesn't make your apologetics for the Confederacy any less naseauting.

tl, tr, but in principle I agree with this.
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The Cat-Tribe
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Postby The Cat-Tribe » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:50 am

Distruzio wrote:As a matter of undeniable fact, there has been absolutely no attempt to settle this issue legally. Historically, politically, and culturally settled is not legally settled.


This is a flat lie. The legality of secession was addressed by SCOTUS several times and clearly settled, particularly in Texas v. White, 74 U.S. 700, 722, 724-727 (1869). See, e.g., White v. Cannon, 73 U.S. (6 Wall.) 443, 450 (1867) (Louisiana ordinance of secession was an absolute nullity); Taylor v. Thomas, 89 U.S. (22 Wall.) 479, 491 (1874) (issuance of treasury notes following Mississippis ordinance of secession void); White v. Hart, 80 U.S. (13 Wall.) 646, 651 (1871) (Georgia never [be] out of pale of Union); Daniels v. Tearney, 102 U.S. 415, 418 (1880) ("That the ordinance of secession was void is a proposition we need not discuss. The affirmative has been settled by the arbitrament of arms and the repeated adjudications of this court.").

Although there was 1 concurrence-in-part and dissent-in-part and 2 dissenters from the decision in Texas v. White, none of the 8 Justices then on the Court opined that Texas had a valid right to secede from the Union.

No subsequent case has ever questioned, let alone overturned, the decision or reasoning of the majority in Texas v. White. Other cases have, however, relied upon the holding in Texas v. White.

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Last edited by The Cat-Tribe on Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Terra Agora
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Postby Terra Agora » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:53 am

The Cat-Tribe wrote:
Distruzio wrote:
In order to avoid further threadjack, I decided to start a new thread so that I might address some issues regarding the War for Southern Independence, secession, and Lincoln's role.

- Albert Jay Nock, Our Enemy, The State, p. 171

Albert Jay Nock makes quite the good point, I think (admittedly, b/c I agree). As a southern nationalist, I hold the view that the United States gov't is illegitimate. Why? B/c Lincoln killed the constitution that defined the United States. The following will be an explanation of why.

In 1776, thirteen American colonies declared themselves independent from the Empire of Great Britain. They seceded from a political union. Twelve years later, those same colonies, now styled "states," seceded once more from the United States of America as defined by the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union to form yet another new gov't, the United States of America as defined by the Constitution. In 1861, that same Union sought by force of arms to end and subjugate a new political union formed by the southern states that had seceded. This secession, unlike the previous two, was negated by military coercion and domination. The Confederate States of America, a confederation styled in similar course to the United States as defined by the Articles of Confederation, died in 1865 - as did the very constitution that defined the United States of America.

I am unabashedly pro-South. But make no mistake, I am no neo-Confederate. I do not believe that the South should have won the war. I in fact, am pleased that the South lost the war. I say this, despite being a Southern Nationalist, b/c I am also an Anarcho-Capitalist. I oppose the State. The centralized authority that Hobbes described as being vast in scale and eternal as a form of gov't. I oppose the State. The 20th century was a century dominated by the rise of the State. It exists everywhere. Moreover, I oppose socialism as anti-human and evil. The 20th century was also a century dominated by the acceptance of varying degrees of socialism everywhere. From America to the Soviet Union, socialism was adopted. I do not believe my beloved South would have long survived the egalitarian horrors that arose in the aftermath of the Great War and led to the greater horrors of the second World War and the subsequent half century long "cold war." Dixie has been vindicated by her death at the hands of the Union. I am sad she died, but pleased that she escaped the perverting influences of centralizing gov't.

That being said, I in no way approve of the results of the War for Southern Independence. The Glorious Union sought to subjugate a rival republic and inso doing, it destroyed the confederation as was established by the Constitution in 1788, and replaced it with a federation as was established by the new Constitution in 1865 - the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments largely nullified the Bill of Rights and established a new understanding of Federal-state relations. The Glorious Union, and the Constitution died on 27 May 1861 when the first Union troop set foot on Virginia soil. Lincoln is not simply a murderer of people and a destroyer of property, but a destroyer of liberty and ideas as well.

The War for Southern Independence resulted in more than 620,000 deaths (be they combat related or otherwise), more than 400,000 wounded or missing souls, billions of dollars in property damage, and a fundamental alteration of the relationship of power in our gov't. Innovations previously unknown in American life were foisted upon the people of both the Union and the Confederacy. A universal conscription, the income tax, standing armies, an outright embrace of imperialism, and a fiat money banking policy. In her desperation to survive, Dixie turned against her initial stance for liberty and followed the Union down the path towards despotism - hence my belief that she would not have been able to resist 20th century trends that led to more than 150 million deaths in peacetime alone. The War for Southern Independence was unnecessary and, for the Union, quite illegal.

Lincoln was a brilliant lawyer for the railways (see also, Lobbyist), a man of conviction, and a man of words - it cannot be said he was a poor statesman. He may have been repulsive to my sensibilities, but he was, otherwise, a man to be acknowledged. Since he was the progenitor of the invasion and the foremost authority on the legality of the invasion, he and he alone bares responsibility for the horrors resulting from that invasion. Lincoln, much like Mao, and Stalin was guilty of committing genocide. Therefore, given that Lincoln was a lawyer, a superb writer and speaker, and was the foremost authority on the legality of the invasion of the South, I direct all of my criticisms at him and the justifications he used.

I know a number of readers will roll their eyes in exasperation. "Not this again!" They will say. Given that my country (Georgia) and my chosen region demanding my loyalty (the Southland) was absolutely devastated to such a degree that we have yet to fully recover economically, politically, and culturally even 150 years later, and given that there have been absolutely no textual alterations to the Constitution as it was written in 1788 by anyone except to add several new amendments which, for all their powers, never mentioned secession, it is quite understandable why this subject continues to be one of fascination and debate. We cannot get over it b/c the losers of wars do not easily swallow domination. We cannot get over it b/c the issues of the war were never addressed. Even the dismissive references to the Supreme Court cases suggest that this issue cannot be easily laid to rest:

- White v Hart (1871)

- Texas v White (1868)

As a matter of undeniable fact, there has been absolutely no attempt to settle this issue legally. Historically, politically, and culturally settled is not legally settled. Consider that in his inaugural, Lincoln made the following statement:



In other words, not even Lincoln, upon assuming the office of president, disputed the right of secession. His primary concern was the collection of duties and imposts. He was demanding that the South pay for its freedom by tribute. Unless of course, "Honest Abe" was being dishonest?

What were Lincoln's legal arguments for invasion? In his Special Message to the Congress, delivered 4 July 1861, Lincoln said:



Curious that he, an accomplished lawyer, would consider the words of the progenitor of secessionist initiatives, Thomas Jefferson, and one of Linocln's most admired statesmen, a mere "sophism":



But Lincoln continues with:



Lolwut? I've read alot, alot, alot of secessionist material and I've never come across this nugget except when reading Lincoln's
description of the Union. Lincoln further challenges the perception that the states created the Union by stating that, besides Texas, no state had ever existed outside the Union. Which is strange for an accomplished lawyer to say, although he was a lobbyist so perhaps I give the man too much credit? Lincoln argues that the states were a Union before 1776, remained a Union in 1788, and continued as Union since he alone denied the legality of the secessions in 1861. In doing this, he confuses 4 different understandings of union. The 13 colonies were, it is true, united in their resistance to British innovation and taxation before 1776. But this is no political union and being that there was no murmuring of secession before 4 July 1776, it seems paradoxical that Lincoln should seek legitimacy for his argument by citing the united colonial front against the British as there were no legal documents accounting for secession before 1776. Buddy's opinion here is moot. Secessionist talk never existed. He goes on to cite the union as was "created" by the Declaration of Independence in 1776. It is unlikely that a man of Lincoln's intelligence would have overlooked the not so subtle fact that the Declaration established a legal right of secession from Great Britain as inalienable.

He goes on to cite the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union:

- Article XIII

Yet the thirteenth article stands in contrast to the second article:



Or was it contrast? It seems rather obvious that the Articles established a Union between the several states that was to be perpetual and unalterable while acknowledging the sovereignty, freedom, and independence of each involved. Furthermore, Lincoln's citation is undermined by the fact that the Articles of Confederation were, despite their asserted perpetuity, altered by secession! Recall that the proposed constitution was to take effect upon the ratification of 9 states. Should we consider the remaining 4 states to be a part of a Union they did not originally seek to join? In 1788, there were only 9 states in the Union as defined by the Constitution. Therefore, the new Union seceded from the original Union despite the explicit prohibition on alteration save by unanimous consent found in the aforementioned article. Let us not forget that "perpetual" was mentioned many times in the Articles of Confederation, and that the same generation that ratified the Articles ratified the Constitution. Is "perpetual" mentioned in the Constitution? Go ahead, look. I'll wait. Despite all the copypasta of the Founders between the two documents, they seem to have missed that ever so significant word, "perpetual." Yet we are to assume it to be implied, says Lincoln, by the phrase "a more perfect Union." Forgive me if I require a visual expression of Lincoln's opinion on the matter:

(Image)

Another word missing from the Constitutional lexicon? Secession. That's right, secession was never mentioned in the constitution and, given that the 9th and 10th amendments make explicit that any power not mentioned explicitly in reference to the federal gov't of the United States was retained by the individual states, any assertion that secession must be mentioned while perpetual be merely implied is rather vapid... no, that's not quite right... it's fucking stupid.

But now that we've mentioned the 10th amendment, I think we should explore Lincoln's bear shit a bit more. The fact is that in his argument for the illegality of secession and the legality of invasion, he never mentions the 9th nor the 10th amendment at all. In fact, he makes one up, states have no rights that are not expressly stated in the Constitution.

Refer to the above image for an appropriate rendition of Lincoln's logic. He failed to consider:

- 9th Amendment

- 10th Amendment

Now before any of you go off about any more nonsense regarding the Nationalist concept of the Union, consider the fact that the Constitutional Convention considered this little nugget for inclusion:



In response, a minor player in the Convention (I rather doubt many have heard of him so I hesitate to mention his name but I shall at the risk of any respectability that this opinion might carry), James Madison, said this:

- The Records of the Federal Convention, Max Farrand, Vol. 1, pg. 47.

The motion considered was rejected immediately. Thus, the right to secede is included among the "reserved powers" of the several states found in the 10th Amendment. Add to this the historical fact that those states had that right in 1776, and in 1788, and that four states, including New York, maintained an addendum - “the powers of government may be reassumed by the people, whensoever it shall become necessary to their happiness.” Unfortunately, the pain for the Nationalist theory of the Union gets worse when we consider the 2nd Amendment:



Now, if we are to consider the historical events that lead to the ratification of the second amendment, and if we accept the rights described in this amendment as legitimate, then it should be no great leap to understand that if it is legitimate for the people to resist the tyranny of their Federal gov't by force of arms, then resistance by peaceful secession is also legitimate. But I'm getting away from the point of this paper -Lincoln's argument for the legality of invasion or rather, the illegality of secession.

Lincoln cited the Supremacy Clause:



and the Guarantee Clause:



Now, if we were to use the supremacy clause as justification for the nullification of secession, then that would obviously beg the question, wouldn't it? The supremacy clause can be used as an argument against secession only if the Constitution requires a state to remain part of the union. Without an "imprisonment clause," the supremacy clause does not apply to a state that has left the Union. Thus, arguments from the supremacy clause assume as a premise exactly what is in dispute: that the state is still part of the Union and thus bound by the supremacy clause. In light of the arguments previously made that the Constitution allows secession, one can just as easily argue that the supremacy clause barred the Union army's invasion of the South! :lol:

Additionally, Lincoln's citation of the Guarantee Clause again, begs the question. Furthermore, he forgot to mention the rest of the clause when he told congress:



The remaining bit of the guarantee clause being:



I wonder why old boy didn't mention this? Maybe it was b/c he was planning an invasion himself? Maybe b/c none of the Confederate legislatures had requested his intervention? In fact, when we consider this clause, we find it rather offensive that Lincoln would use this as an argument for invasion of the South (to guarantee a republican form of gov't) when, upon victory, the Southern gov'ts were immediately dissolved and replaced by military governors. Recall again, the aforementioned court cases. While it may be true that the Union was intended to perpetuate by the founders, I rather doubt that they would have approved of military dictatorship as a requirement for the maintenance of that perpetuity. Since the Lincoln administration invalidated the Guarantee Clause by invading the South, any assertion of constitutional authority to prevent secession is equally invalidated.

In Coleman v Tennessee(1879), the Supreme Court defended military occupation on the grounds that:



Read that again if you got confused. That's right. The Supreme Court is defending the unconstitutional act of military occupation by invoking international law while at the same time denying that the Confederate States were separate nations. To invoke international law instead of United States law is to implicitly acknowledge the validity and legality of secession and the illegality of the invasion. In short, the Supreme Court declared that in order to subjugate the South, it was necessary that Lincoln himself violate the Supremacy Clause by justifying his actions via international law.

Several of you will say that since the Constitution makes no explicit mention of secession, that secession is therefore illegal. I would reply that the constitution also fails to make explicit the mention of invasion. The strongest case against the legality of secession comes, not from the silly supreme court cases mentioned above that are so often cited (neither of which deal squarely with the issue nor do they contain detailed and serious analysis of the issues, arguments, and constitutional clauses one would expect to see in a comprehensive treatment of the issue by the highest court in the land), but in the 14th Amendment.



Oh wait... did I read that right? Yes I did, in fact. B/c while the 14th Amendment regularly discusses issues surrounding the war, the language present in it necessarily implies that secession is barred. Which obviously implies that secession was a right that was legally enjoyed by the South before the war. Hmmm.... So I suppose that the 14th Amendment does actually help the case for claiming that secession was illegal either, does it? Here's a fun thought, why didn't the men who had just fought a war to nullify secession add into the 14th amendment a provision permanently prohibiting secession?

The fact of the matter is that the invasion and military occupation were illegal, secession was legal. The existence of slavery in before 1865 changes nothing in this regard. Moreover, chattel slavery no longer exists, so it can no longer be used to justify either legally or morally war on a seceding state. Inso doing, the invader creates a new slavery, state slavery. A slavery that dominates us all right now, at this moment. All forms of forced association are forms of slavery. The entire South is now the slave, the Union the master. The war was not fought to end slavery, it was fought to increase it.

Give it the fuck up. And, if you are going to argue such tripe, at least have the courage and intellectual honesty to address the arguments I already made in the other thread.

And, by the way, just because you are of racially mixed heritage (as we all are really) doesn't make your apologetics for the Confederacy any less naseauting.

Image

He's and evul racist neoconfederate!
Last edited by Terra Agora on Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Terra Agora
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Postby Terra Agora » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:57 am

Altamirus wrote:
Terra Agora wrote:Image
He's and evul racist neoconfederate!

Nice flame, terra.

Thanks.
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My Beliefs
“If a tyrant is one man and his subjects are many, why do they consent to their own enslavement?”- Étienne De La Boétie
“It’s too bad that stupidity isn’t painful.” - Anton Szandor LaVey
"Liberty is the mother, not the daughter, of order." Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
"Freedom" awakens your rage against everything that is not you; "egoism" calls you to joy over yourselves, to self-enjoyment."-Max Stirner
" A man is no less a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years." - Lynsander Spooner
"The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind." - H.P. Lovecraft
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Terra Agora
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Postby Terra Agora » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:00 pm

Altamirus wrote:
Terra Agora wrote:Thanks.

That was sarcasm. Attack the post not the poster.

So was mine. And so was the one previous to it...

I "attacked" no one. It was sarcasm...
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“If a tyrant is one man and his subjects are many, why do they consent to their own enslavement?”- Étienne De La Boétie
“It’s too bad that stupidity isn’t painful.” - Anton Szandor LaVey
"Liberty is the mother, not the daughter, of order." Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
"Freedom" awakens your rage against everything that is not you; "egoism" calls you to joy over yourselves, to self-enjoyment."-Max Stirner
" A man is no less a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years." - Lynsander Spooner
"The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind." - H.P. Lovecraft
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Postby Southern Patriots » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:01 pm

Whether or not secession is legal, didn't the CSA start the war by attacking a Union fort? You sow the wind and you'll reap the whirlwind...

Remember Rhodesia.

On Robert Mugabe:
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:He was a former schoolteacher.

I do hope it wasn't in economics.

Panzerjaeger wrote:Why would Cleopatra have cornrows? She is from Egypt not the goddamn Bronx.

Ceannairceach wrote:
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I doth protest in the name of the Russian Imperial family!
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Laerod
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Postby Laerod » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:03 pm

Southern Patriots wrote:Whether or not secession is legal, didn't the CSA start the war by attacking a Union fort? You sow the wind and you'll reap the whirlwind...

Indeed. Imagine what kind of position Lincoln would have been in if they hadn't.

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Southern Patriots
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Postby Southern Patriots » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:05 pm

Laerod wrote:
Southern Patriots wrote:Whether or not secession is legal, didn't the CSA start the war by attacking a Union fort? You sow the wind and you'll reap the whirlwind...

Indeed. Imagine what kind of position Lincoln would have been in if they hadn't.

With so many states on the fence about Union or Confederacy, I'm sure he couldn't have started a war over it. The violent secessionists handed him the keys to his victory.

Remember Rhodesia.

On Robert Mugabe:
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:He was a former schoolteacher.

I do hope it wasn't in economics.

Panzerjaeger wrote:Why would Cleopatra have cornrows? She is from Egypt not the goddamn Bronx.

Ceannairceach wrote:
Archnar wrote:The Russian Revolution showed a revolution could occure in a quick bloadless and painless process (Nobody was seriously injured or killed).

I doth protest in the name of the Russian Imperial family!
(WIP)

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Terra Agora
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Postby Terra Agora » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:23 pm

Southern Patriots wrote:
Laerod wrote:Indeed. Imagine what kind of position Lincoln would have been in if they hadn't.

With so many states on the fence about Union or Confederacy, I'm sure he couldn't have started a war over it. The violent secessionists handed him the keys to his victory.

Violent secessionist? lol your funny.

The South attacked Fort Sumter because they thought it was part of South Carolina. Same with every fort that wouldn't surrender to them.
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“It’s too bad that stupidity isn’t painful.” - Anton Szandor LaVey
"Liberty is the mother, not the daughter, of order." Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
"Freedom" awakens your rage against everything that is not you; "egoism" calls you to joy over yourselves, to self-enjoyment."-Max Stirner
" A man is no less a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years." - Lynsander Spooner
"The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind." - H.P. Lovecraft
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Call to power
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Postby Call to power » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:25 pm

I oppose the State.


I think you have bigger problems that need addressing dear

New Hayesalia wrote:Dammit, I thought there were real unicorns here. Oh well...


chasing unicorns is cruel and lowers the quality of their meat, is this the kind of thing the Robert E Lee would stand for? I thought not and he only fought on the baddies side because he was more loyal to his state than the Union.
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Laerod
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Postby Laerod » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:29 pm

Terra Agora wrote:
Southern Patriots wrote:With so many states on the fence about Union or Confederacy, I'm sure he couldn't have started a war over it. The violent secessionists handed him the keys to his victory.

Violent secessionist? lol your funny.

The South attacked Fort Sumter because they thought it was part of South Carolina. Same with every fort that wouldn't surrender to them.

So you're suggesting Cuba would be in the right to kick the US out of Guantanamo Bay?

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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:29 pm

Ah, neoconfederates. Will they ever stop?
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Southern Patriots
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Postby Southern Patriots » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:32 pm

Terra Agora wrote:
Southern Patriots wrote:With so many states on the fence about Union or Confederacy, I'm sure he couldn't have started a war over it. The violent secessionists handed him the keys to his victory.

Violent secessionist? lol your funny.

The South attacked Fort Sumter because they thought it was part of South Carolina. Same with every fort that wouldn't surrender to them.

I'm so funny that the CSA started a war it couldn't win because it decided to use violence instead of continuing diplomacy. Or do you really think some secessionists weren't eager for a war so they could whip those yankee bankers and shop owners in a month"?
Edmund Ruffin, the man who supposedly fired the first shot, couldn't wait to go to war and I believe shot himself when the CSA lost.

Remember Rhodesia.

On Robert Mugabe:
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:He was a former schoolteacher.

I do hope it wasn't in economics.

Panzerjaeger wrote:Why would Cleopatra have cornrows? She is from Egypt not the goddamn Bronx.

Ceannairceach wrote:
Archnar wrote:The Russian Revolution showed a revolution could occure in a quick bloadless and painless process (Nobody was seriously injured or killed).

I doth protest in the name of the Russian Imperial family!
(WIP)

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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:33 pm

Terra Agora wrote:Violent secessionist? lol your funny.

The South attacked Fort Sumter because they thought it was part of South Carolina. Same with every fort that wouldn't surrender to them.

And you know who else attacked a place because they thought it was part of them?
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F1-Insanity
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Postby F1-Insanity » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:35 pm

So, dear OP, why did southern states agressively seek to use federal power to try and not just entrench slavery, but actually seeking to expand it (back) to the north via blatantly anti-states-rights measures such as the fugitive slave act, the Dred Scott decision and more?

Is there really a more anti-states-rights piece of legislation available than the fugitive slave act? South Carolina, arguably by far the least democratic state in the union, actually demanded that northern states not only water down or abolish their anti slavery laws, but actually used federal power to try and force northern states to play a part in slavery...

And the South decided to illegally seize federal property and open fire on federal troops in a federal fort... no one forced them to do that, they decided it was a great idea...

Between the slave power and states' rights there was no necessary connection. The slave power, when in control, was a centralizing influence, and all the most considerable encroachments on states' rights were its acts. The acquisition and admission of Louisiana; the Embargo; the War of 1812; the annexation of Texas "by joint resolution" [rather than treaty]; the war with Mexico, declared by the mere announcement of President Polk; the Fugitive Slave Law; the Dred Scott decision — all triumphs of the slave power — did far more than either tariffs or internal improvements, which in their origin were also southern measures, to destroy the very memory of states' rights as they existed in 1789. Whenever a question arose of extending or protecting slavery, the slaveholders became friends of centralized power, and used that dangerous weapon with a kind of frenzy. Slavery in fact required centralization in order to maintain and protect itself, but it required to control the centralized machine; it needed despotic principles of government, but it needed them exclusively for its own use. Thus, in truth, states' rights were the protection of the free states, and as a matter of fact, during the domination of the slave power, Massachusetts appealed to this protecting principle as often and almost as loudly as South Carolina.
Last edited by F1-Insanity on Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Robert Magoo
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Postby Robert Magoo » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:36 pm

I think the south should have been allowed to secede for any reason. That said, if you attack another nation, you should expect there to be consequences.
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Laerod
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Postby Laerod » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:42 pm

Robert Magoo wrote:I think the south should have been allowed to secede for any reason. That said, if you attack another nation, you should expect there to be consequences.

So what do you think about the South not allowing East Tennessee, West Virginia*, and Northern Alabama to remain with the Union? Kinda kills their argument that they get to secede if they refuse the right to others.

*That West Virginia did secede from the South was due to McLellan forcing Lee out and not because the South recognized a right to secession, so this counts as well.

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Terra Agora
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Founded: Mar 25, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Terra Agora » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:43 pm

Southern Patriots wrote:
Terra Agora wrote:Violent secessionist? lol your funny.

The South attacked Fort Sumter because they thought it was part of South Carolina. Same with every fort that wouldn't surrender to them.

I'm so funny that the CSA started a war it couldn't win because it decided to use violence instead of continuing diplomacy. Or do you really think some secessionists weren't eager for a war so they could whip those yankee bankers and shop owners in a month"?
Edmund Ruffin, the man who supposedly fired the first shot, couldn't wait to go to war and I believe shot himself when the CSA lost.

Accept they didnt start it...
They didn't want a war in the first place...
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Wamitoria
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Ex-Nation

Postby Wamitoria » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:43 pm

Terra Agora wrote:
Southern Patriots wrote:I'm so funny that the CSA started a war it couldn't win because it decided to use violence instead of continuing diplomacy. Or do you really think some secessionists weren't eager for a war so they could whip those yankee bankers and shop owners in a month"?
Edmund Ruffin, the man who supposedly fired the first shot, couldn't wait to go to war and I believe shot himself when the CSA lost.

Accept they didnt start it...
They didn't want a war in the first place...

Why did they shell a federal fort then?
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