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Taxes on Churches?

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Jesus Strippers
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Taxes on Churches?

Postby Jesus Strippers » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:04 pm

MISSION, KANSAS:
The government can tax your life and can tax your death, but they’re not supposed to tax your church.

And that’s exactly what he said is happening in Mission.

“The city of Mission is taxing churches,” he said. “And that’s clearly unconstitutional.”

In August, the small town just north of Kansas City passed the so-called “driveway tax,” a controversial charge, in addition to property taxes, for residents and businesses based on the number of times their driveway is used.

A big box store like Target can pay over $60,000 annually, while residents pay a flat rate of $72 dollars a year.

The purpose of the “Transportation Utility Fee” is to raise money for public works projects in Mission like street construction and road repair.

It’s unpopular among residents, some of whom have put up protest signs on their yards.

But it’s particularly controversial because the town has included churches in the program.

The Baptist church for instance has to pay 900 dollars a year, while the more popular St. Pius is charged $1700 a year.

Stanley, who is an attorney for the Alliance Defense Fund, a national organization that protects religious rights, is now representing the two churches in a lawsuit against Mission.

He calls the revenue program “a tax on church attendance.”

“The city of mission is taxing churches based on the number of people that come in and out of their driveway, the number of people that come to church,” he said.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/03/10/ta ... z1GJoPQkcb

Now, the Constitution clearly dictates a separation of church and state. I think that this is a violation of the Constitution. Its only generating a few thousand dollars a year, so all it does is discourage church attendance and violate people's rights. I have a few questions for NS:

Is it Constitutionally acceptable for the city of Mission, Kansas to tax churches?
Is it morally acceptable for the city of Mission, Kansas to tax churches?
Should the federal or state government do something about this?
AND Why?
Last edited by Jesus Strippers on Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Nightkill the Emperor
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Postby Nightkill the Emperor » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:04 pm

Yes. All churches/temples/mosques should be taxed.
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Roman Cilicia
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Postby Roman Cilicia » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:04 pm

Unconstitutional.
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Republicke
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Postby Republicke » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:06 pm

Surely they should pay tax? Otherwise the government is endorsing religious beliefs (or the lack thereof) over other kinds of belief?
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Aeronos
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Postby Aeronos » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:06 pm

Roman Cilicia wrote:Unconstitutional.

Pardon? Tax exemption is a form of government endorsement, so surely not taxing the churches is unconstitutional?
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Lackadaisical2
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:07 pm

What the hell is the rationale for charging a fee for using a driveway?
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Iron Chariots
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Postby Iron Chariots » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:08 pm

I don't see how exempting religious institutions from the rules that every single other organization in our society is legally obligated to follow is "separation of church and state," but it appears to be the norm in our society.
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Lackadaisical2
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:08 pm

Aeronos wrote:
Roman Cilicia wrote:Unconstitutional.

Pardon? Tax exemption is a form of government endorsement, so surely not taxing the churches is unconstitutional?

Thats not how the Supreme Court views it, and they're the ones who decide that.
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Republicke
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Postby Republicke » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:09 pm

Lackadaisical2 wrote:
Aeronos wrote:Pardon? Tax exemption is a form of government endorsement, so surely not taxing the churches is unconstitutional?

Thats not how the Supreme Court views it, and they're the ones who decide that.


Out of curiosity, what's the ruling?
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Wikkiwallana
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Postby Wikkiwallana » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:09 pm

I think they should be taxed only if they do not meet the requirements of a non-profit organization. If they do, they are a religion-based charity and should be exempt.
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Postby Occupied Deutschland » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:09 pm

This is interesting. While churches should not be specifically taxed, should they be included in a overarching tax that affects essentially every other member of the community...
I think this is legitimate (I don't support the tax, but including churches in such a tax is legit).
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Postby Occupied Deutschland » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:09 pm

Lackadaisical2 wrote:What the hell is the rationale for charging a fee for using a driveway?

This ^
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Postby Vetalia » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:10 pm

Wikkiwallana wrote:I think they should be taxed only if they do not meet the requirements of a non-profit organization. If they do, they are a religion-based charity and should be exempt.


I agree. There's a big difference between churches operating like this and the flagrant commercialism including retail sales some of the televangelists and megachurches espouse under the ruse of "donations".
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Postby Rambhutan » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:10 pm

Presumably having In God We Trust on your currency, and having One Nation under God in the pledge recited in schools are equally unconstitutional and you would support them being removed as well?
Are we there yet?

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Aeronos
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Postby Aeronos » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:12 pm

Rambhutan wrote:Presumably having In God We Trust on your currency, and having One Nation under God in the pledge recited in schools are equally unconstitutional and you would support them being removed as well?

Yes.
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Iron Chariots
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Postby Iron Chariots » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:12 pm

Occupied Deutschland wrote:This is interesting. While churches should not be specifically taxed, should they be included in a overarching tax that affects essentially every other member of the community...
I think this is legitimate (I don't support the tax, but including churches in such a tax is legit).

This seems to be most sensible way to handle this sort of thing, but in our system it's actually the case that not giving Churches (and to a lesser extent, other religious institutions) special protection from the law constitutes religious oppression.
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Republicke
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Postby Republicke » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:12 pm

Rambhutan wrote:Presumably having In God We Trust on your currency, and having One Nation under God in the pledge recited in schools are equally unconstitutional and you would support them being removed as well?


Depends how you interpret the Establishment Clause, but it seems like that might indeed be the case.
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Postby Umbra Ac Silentium » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:13 pm

Rambhutan wrote:Presumably having In God We Trust on your currency, and having One Nation under God in the pledge recited in schools are equally unconstitutional and you would support them being removed as well?

:bow: Yes.

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Iron Chariots
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Postby Iron Chariots » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:14 pm

Republicke wrote:
Rambhutan wrote:Presumably having In God We Trust on your currency, and having One Nation under God in the pledge recited in schools are equally unconstitutional and you would support them being removed as well?


Depends how you interpret the Establishment Clause, but it seems like that might indeed be the case.

The argument, basically, is that it's not in violation, because it doesn't mention any specific god and fuck atheists and polytheists.
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Roman Cilicia
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Postby Roman Cilicia » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:14 pm

This nation was founded on christian values. We can't just drop the Christian element of society altogether, and it would be foolish to try.
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Postby Ivanteyevka » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:15 pm

Why should churches be exempt from paying taxes? We pay taxes on our homes, food, cars, everything. Just because someone believe there's a mystical man in the sky doesn't mean they should get a freebie.
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Iron Chariots
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Postby Iron Chariots » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:15 pm

Roman Cilicia wrote:This nation was founded on christian values. We can't just drop the Christian element of society altogether, and it would be foolish to try.

Source?

I seem to remember it being a product of Enlightenment Values, myself.
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Republicke
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Postby Republicke » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:15 pm

Iron Chariots wrote:
Republicke wrote:
Depends how you interpret the Establishment Clause, but it seems like that might indeed be the case.

The argument, basically, is that it's not in violation, because it doesn't mention any specific god and fuck atheists and polytheists


I don't know much about it, but I heard that it was to do with the God referred to being a philosophical God as opposed to a theological God. Personally, I think the distinction is reasonably fatuous, but w/e.
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Postby Vetalia » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:16 pm

Iron Chariots wrote:Source?

I seem to remember it being a product of Enlightenment Values, myself.


Honestly, Enlightenment values and Christian values overlapped a lot, especially at that time.
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Nightkill the Emperor
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Postby Nightkill the Emperor » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:18 pm

Roman Cilicia wrote:This nation was founded on christian values. We can't just drop the Christian element of society altogether, and it would be foolish to try.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-m ... es-c,2849/

"Men like Madison and Jefferson were moved by the ideals of Christianity, and wanted the United States to reflect those values as a Christian nation," continued Mortensen, referring to the "Father of the Constitution," James Madison, considered by many historians to be an atheist, and Thomas Jefferson, an Enlightenment-era thinker who rejected the divinity of Christ and was in France at the time the document was written. "The words on the page speak for themselves."

According to sources who have read the nation's charter, the U.S. Constitution and its 27 amendments do not contain the word "God" or "Christ."
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