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by Dokuritsu Nippon » Wed May 02, 2012 1:59 pm
New England and The Maritimes wrote:Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
Do they have sufficient power to abolish private ownership of capital?
North Korea certainly hasn't, just like the USSR never did. The private owners changed, but they're still owners. The Party elite still get to do anything they want. Kim Jong Il still had lobster airlifted to his private train in the midst of one of the most utterly destructive famines in human history. No constitution in the world changes the simple fact that North Korea treats its "workers" like insects, or the fact that the majority of people can only get enough food to survive from non-sanctioned private markets.
by Minnysota » Wed May 02, 2012 2:00 pm
Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
>__<
I have been there, thank you very much. A terrible, terrible place, showing just how absolutely barbaric fascism (capitalism in decay) can be. It actually was a partial epiphany moment, in the face of such unabated evil, that I realized this horrid imperialist system, in all its manifestations, must be opposed at any costs. I actually broke down and cried there, wished I could travel back in time, and slaughter each and ever member of the SS, SA, Nazi Party, everyone. I was an atheist, but I wished in that moment that Christianity was true, just so Hitler could be suffering forever for the great evil he caused. It was only there, facing it, that I realized on more than a mere intellectual level, how evil and detestable the capitalist system is. Even writing now, I'm furious, depressed. So many emotions at once. I've tried to channel them for good.
by Minnysota » Wed May 02, 2012 2:01 pm
Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:Don't pretend that the workers actually are in control in North Korea.
Of course they are. It's a workers' state.
by Ganos Lao » Wed May 02, 2012 2:01 pm
by Dokuritsu Nippon » Wed May 02, 2012 2:01 pm
Norstal wrote:Jerusalem and Damascus wrote:
Mmm-hmm.
Now, no government would like the DPRK would have any benefit in making someone a poster-boy to say how lovely they are...
And I guess all those people they kidnapped are doing quite well, too.
Pictures of captured Americans in North Korea, look at how much they're treated well:
It's all in the fingers.
by New England and The Maritimes » Wed May 02, 2012 2:01 pm
Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:New England and The Maritimes wrote:
North Korea certainly hasn't, just like the USSR never did. The private owners changed, but they're still owners. The Party elite still get to do anything they want. Kim Jong Il still had lobster airlifted to his private train in the midst of one of the most utterly destructive famines in human history. No constitution in the world changes the simple fact that North Korea treats its "workers" like insects, or the fact that the majority of people can only get enough food to survive from non-sanctioned private markets.
And I suppose you get all of this "information" from anecdotal accounts of political defectors?
Soviet Haaregrad wrote:Some people's opinions are based on rational observations, others base theirs on imaginative thinking. The reality-based community ought not to waste it's time refuting delusions.
by Genivaria » Wed May 02, 2012 2:02 pm
Minnysota wrote:Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
>__<
I have been there, thank you very much. A terrible, terrible place, showing just how absolutely barbaric fascism (capitalism in decay) can be. It actually was a partial epiphany moment, in the face of such unabated evil, that I realized this horrid imperialist system, in all its manifestations, must be opposed at any costs. I actually broke down and cried there, wished I could travel back in time, and slaughter each and ever member of the SS, SA, Nazi Party, everyone. I was an atheist, but I wished in that moment that Christianity was true, just so Hitler could be suffering forever for the great evil he caused. It was only there, facing it, that I realized on more than a mere intellectual level, how evil and detestable the capitalist system is. Even writing now, I'm furious, depressed. So many emotions at once. I've tried to channel them for good.
By supporting the DPRK?
by Chinese Regions » Wed May 02, 2012 2:02 pm
Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:New England and The Maritimes wrote:
North Korea certainly hasn't, just like the USSR never did. The private owners changed, but they're still owners. The Party elite still get to do anything they want. Kim Jong Il still had lobster airlifted to his private train in the midst of one of the most utterly destructive famines in human history. No constitution in the world changes the simple fact that North Korea treats its "workers" like insects, or the fact that the majority of people can only get enough food to survive from non-sanctioned private markets.
And I suppose you get all of this "information" from anecdotal accounts of political defectors?
by Chinese Regions » Wed May 02, 2012 2:03 pm
Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:Genivaria wrote:There are quite a few Cooperatives yes.
Which have, in their own terms, no political sovereignty, thus no means of abolishing private ownership of the means of production.Don't pretend that the workers actually are in control in North Korea.
Of course they are. It's a workers' state.
by Dokuritsu Nippon » Wed May 02, 2012 2:04 pm
Norstal wrote:Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
Do workers there control the means of production?
I wouldn't want them to do that. I lived in a village in Indonesia where the workers controlled the means of the production. Long story-short, they made a fertile rubber farm barren. Instead of professionals, that farm was managed by slack-jawed yokels who don't know a thing about fertilizers or biology. I have a slew of other anecdotes I can throw and you may claim anecdotal fallacy, but meh, you're doing it as well in the OP.
Now don't get me wrong. I hate business majors, bean counters, and other paper-pushers. That doesn't mean, however, that I hate entrepreneurship, which is something a worker-controlled production prevents.
by Minnysota » Wed May 02, 2012 2:06 pm
by Avenio » Wed May 02, 2012 2:06 pm
by Dokuritsu Nippon » Wed May 02, 2012 2:06 pm
Minnysota wrote:Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
>__<
I have been there, thank you very much. A terrible, terrible place, showing just how absolutely barbaric fascism (capitalism in decay) can be. It actually was a partial epiphany moment, in the face of such unabated evil, that I realized this horrid imperialist system, in all its manifestations, must be opposed at any costs. I actually broke down and cried there, wished I could travel back in time, and slaughter each and ever member of the SS, SA, Nazi Party, everyone. I was an atheist, but I wished in that moment that Christianity was true, just so Hitler could be suffering forever for the great evil he caused. It was only there, facing it, that I realized on more than a mere intellectual level, how evil and detestable the capitalist system is. Even writing now, I'm furious, depressed. So many emotions at once. I've tried to channel them for good.
By supporting the DPRK?
by Dokuritsu Nippon » Wed May 02, 2012 2:07 pm
Ganos Lao wrote:(Image)
NSG: Where armchair revolutionaries can routinely condemn the system they live under with all the benefits they themselves rely upon by advocating the non-existent merits of a system that's really not that good to begin with.
Up next: America. Is it a Atheist hellhole or a heaven for Christian hypocrisy? You, the armchair Paines and crusaders, decide!
by Chinese Regions » Wed May 02, 2012 2:08 pm
Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:Norstal wrote:I wouldn't want them to do that. I lived in a village in Indonesia where the workers controlled the means of the production. Long story-short, they made a fertile rubber farm barren. Instead of professionals, that farm was managed by slack-jawed yokels who don't know a thing about fertilizers or biology. I have a slew of other anecdotes I can throw and you may claim anecdotal fallacy, but meh, you're doing it as well in the OP.
Now don't get me wrong. I hate business majors, bean counters, and other paper-pushers. That doesn't mean, however, that I hate entrepreneurship, which is something a worker-controlled production prevents.
I'm in favor of competent management (ie. the intellectual class leading society, as Juche calls for); I simply wish for them to be a subset of the working class. Not non-laboring pigs who exploit others' labor.
by Ganos Lao » Wed May 02, 2012 2:09 pm
Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:Ganos Lao wrote:(Image)
NSG: Where armchair revolutionaries can routinely condemn the system they live under with all the benefits they themselves rely upon by advocating the non-existent merits of a system that's really not that good to begin with.
Up next: America. Is it a Atheist hellhole or a heaven for Christian hypocrisy? You, the armchair Paines and crusaders, decide!
For what it's worth, I'm leaving the US a week from now.
by Genivaria » Wed May 02, 2012 2:09 pm
Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:Minnysota wrote:
By supporting the DPRK?
Well, after seeing how evil, uncompromising, antithetical to most human interests the capitalist system (fascism is capitalism in decay, after all) is, I determined that it must be opposed at any costs. The DPRK is the strongest voice against the capitalist-imperialist system at present, so of course they hold my support.
by Norstal » Wed May 02, 2012 2:09 pm
Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:Norstal wrote:I wouldn't want them to do that. I lived in a village in Indonesia where the workers controlled the means of the production. Long story-short, they made a fertile rubber farm barren. Instead of professionals, that farm was managed by slack-jawed yokels who don't know a thing about fertilizers or biology. I have a slew of other anecdotes I can throw and you may claim anecdotal fallacy, but meh, you're doing it as well in the OP.
Now don't get me wrong. I hate business majors, bean counters, and other paper-pushers. That doesn't mean, however, that I hate entrepreneurship, which is something a worker-controlled production prevents.
I'm in favor of competent management (ie. the intellectual class leading society, as Juche calls for); I simply wish for them to be a subset of the working class. Not non-laboring pigs who exploit others' labor.
Toronto Sun wrote:Best poster ever. ★★★★★
New York Times wrote:No one can beat him in debates. 5/5.
IGN wrote:Literally the best game I've ever played. 10/10
NSG Public wrote:What a fucking douchebag.
by New England and The Maritimes » Wed May 02, 2012 2:10 pm
Ganos Lao wrote:(Image)
NSG: Where armchair revolutionaries can routinely condemn the system they live under with all the benefits they themselves rely upon by advocating the non-existent merits of a system that's really not that good to begin with.
Up next: America. Is it a Atheist hellhole or a heaven for Christian hypocrisy? You, the armchair Paines and crusaders, decide!
Soviet Haaregrad wrote:Some people's opinions are based on rational observations, others base theirs on imaginative thinking. The reality-based community ought not to waste it's time refuting delusions.
by Southern Patriots » Wed May 02, 2012 2:11 pm
Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:Ganos Lao wrote:(Image)
NSG: Where armchair revolutionaries can routinely condemn the system they live under with all the benefits they themselves rely upon by advocating the non-existent merits of a system that's really not that good to begin with.
Up next: America. Is it a Atheist hellhole or a heaven for Christian hypocrisy? You, the armchair Paines and crusaders, decide!
For what it's worth, I'm leaving the US a week from now.
Panzerjaeger wrote:Why would Cleopatra have cornrows? She is from Egypt not the goddamn Bronx.
by Chinese Regions » Wed May 02, 2012 2:11 pm
Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:Minnysota wrote:
By supporting the DPRK?
Well, after seeing how evil, uncompromising, antithetical to most human interests the capitalist system (fascism is capitalism in decay, after all) is, I determined that it must be opposed at any costs. The DPRK is the strongest voice against the capitalist-imperialist system at present, so of course they hold my support.
by Dokuritsu Nippon » Wed May 02, 2012 2:12 pm
Avenio wrote:Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
Do they have sufficient power to abolish private ownership of capital?
In Israel, probably not, but in Germany, for example, 25% of all workers belong to the Confederation of German Trade Unions alone, and that unions are an integral part in the German economy and political system.
Frankly, the German model sounds much closer to a 'workers' state' than North Korea is.
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