Advertisement
by -Raysia- » Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:25 am
by Andrewboy » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:08 am
Sheniaux wrote:Issued to all members of the military
by Saurea » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:00 am
by Belkan Provinces » Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:43 am
by Saudiland » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:50 pm
by Niihama » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:11 pm
by Le Opulent World Order » Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:03 am
by Dostanuot Loj » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:37 am
Verlorenen wrote:The Waffen-SS should be studied in every modern military college - they were an excellent fighting force in every sense of the word. But do the horrible crimes they committed during the course of the war nullify that? Under the circumstances, in this day and age, I think not.
by Banananano » Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:23 am
by Verlorenen » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:47 pm
Dostanuot Loj wrote: The Waffen-SS were the paramilitary wing of the NSDAP, not the military. Which is why they are not studied as a military. The actual German military, the Wehrmacht, did not actually include the SS (Even though some historians, and wiki, says it was a de facto element later on). The Wehrmact, and of course the Heer sub-componant, are studied in great detail. Especially as, as a fighting force, the SS had no advantage over many Heer units, even being considered inferior in combat performance to some.
by Dostanuot Loj » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:13 pm
Verlorenen wrote:Dostanuot Loj wrote: The Waffen-SS were the paramilitary wing of the NSDAP, not the military. Which is why they are not studied as a military. The actual German military, the Wehrmacht, did not actually include the SS (Even though some historians, and wiki, says it was a de facto element later on). The Wehrmact, and of course the Heer sub-componant, are studied in great detail. Especially as, as a fighting force, the SS had no advantage over many Heer units, even being considered inferior in combat performance to some.
1. Did I say they were part of the military? No. I said they were an excellent "fighting force." I am fully aware of their position in NSDAP hierarchy.
2. Regardless, they still should be studied. It doesn't matter about their BS classification.
3. "considered inferior in combat performance" You wanna back that one up with a source?
by Verlorenen » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:42 pm
Dostanuot Loj wrote:J.F.C Fuller's Decisive Battles of the Western World Vol.III, Guderian's Panzer Leader, Christopher F. Foss' Modern Land Warfare, G. Biryukov and G. Melnikov's Antitank Warfare, virtually every one of the Osprey books about some armoured unit or vehicle used by the Germans in WW2. Hell, you can look at the battles fought by SS and Heer units on wikipedia and even it, for all that site is worth, will say the same thing.
wikipedia.org wrote:In August, SS Division Wiking was ordered to establish a defensive perimeter around a bridgehead across the Dniepr river. Despite determined attacks by the Red Army, the division held the line. During 1941, the Heer officers in charge of the deployment of the SS Division Wiking were skeptical of its fighting abilities and so were hesitant to commit it to any major actions. As the division proved itself again and again in combat, it began to earn the grudging respect of the Heer commanders.
wikipedia.org wrote:The new Waffen-SS division was involved in some heavy fighting between January and March which resulted in the destruction of the Soviet 2nd Shock Army.
wikipedia.org wrote:In February, 1943, the Division saw action south of Lake Ladoga and were involved in a number of Soviet offensives and forced to withdraw to a new defensive line at Kolpino where it was successful in holding the Red Army, despite suffering severe casualties.
wikipedia.org wrote:SS Regiment Nordland's assault soon bogged down, as they realized that not only were they outnumbered by the Red Army, but they were also well entrenched in prepared positions. Within thirty minutes, almost half of the men of regiment had fallen. Despite this, they still captured the hill, and its commander Fritz von Scholz was awarded the Knight's Cross for his actions during the battle.
wikipedia.org wrote:The Panzergrenadier regiments of 5 SS Wiking were exhausted and understrength from the fighting in the Caucasus, and the Panzer Battalion lacked sufficient armour to counter the Soviet force. Despite this, the division held off the Soviet assault, protecting the vital rail line and helping bring about the destruction of Mobile Group Popov.
by The Grand World Order » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:00 pm
Verlorenen wrote:Dostanuot Loj wrote:J.F.C Fuller's Decisive Battles of the Western World Vol.III, Guderian's Panzer Leader, Christopher F. Foss' Modern Land Warfare, G. Biryukov and G. Melnikov's Antitank Warfare, virtually every one of the Osprey books about some armoured unit or vehicle used by the Germans in WW2. Hell, you can look at the battles fought by SS and Heer units on wikipedia and even it, for all that site is worth, will say the same thing.
Since I don't have the luxury of checking out any of those books, I will be forced to resort to the infamous Wikipedia to dispute your claim. Listen, I'm not saying they were perfect, but for the most part, they got the job done:
*ahem*wikipedia.org wrote:In August, SS Division Wiking was ordered to establish a defensive perimeter around a bridgehead across the Dniepr river. Despite determined attacks by the Red Army, the division held the line. During 1941, the Heer officers in charge of the deployment of the SS Division Wiking were skeptical of its fighting abilities and so were hesitant to commit it to any major actions. As the division proved itself again and again in combat, it began to earn the grudging respect of the Heer commanders.wikipedia.org wrote:The new Waffen-SS division was involved in some heavy fighting between January and March which resulted in the destruction of the Soviet 2nd Shock Army.wikipedia.org wrote:In February, 1943, the Division saw action south of Lake Ladoga and were involved in a number of Soviet offensives and forced to withdraw to a new defensive line at Kolpino where it was successful in holding the Red Army, despite suffering severe casualties.wikipedia.org wrote:SS Regiment Nordland's assault soon bogged down, as they realized that not only were they outnumbered by the Red Army, but they were also well entrenched in prepared positions. Within thirty minutes, almost half of the men of regiment had fallen. Despite this, they still captured the hill, and its commander Fritz von Scholz was awarded the Knight's Cross for his actions during the battle.wikipedia.org wrote:The Panzergrenadier regiments of 5 SS Wiking were exhausted and understrength from the fighting in the Caucasus, and the Panzer Battalion lacked sufficient armour to counter the Soviet force. Despite this, the division held off the Soviet assault, protecting the vital rail line and helping bring about the destruction of Mobile Group Popov.
by Dostanuot Loj » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:05 pm
by Verlorenen » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:09 pm
Dostanuot Loj wrote:Getting the job done does not make them elite. And in fact, your sources do little more then say they were better then the Soviets, which unles they were against one of the few key command formations, or utterly out numbered, wasn't the most notable record. Remember, the Heer had just as many (Or rather more) divisions perform the same feats.
Also, why do you supply quotes as if separate units, for only a few units? You have five quotes, but only three units. The 5th Wiking, 11th Nordland, and 4th Polizie.
by Cameroi » Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:37 pm
by Haven Fotress » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:29 pm
by The Deus Corporation » Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:10 pm
Soyut wrote:Soyut's uniform focuses more on psychological warfare. The feathers are meant to disguise the number of wounded during battle.
by The Deus Corporation » Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:23 pm
by Moonsilver » Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:42 pm
Advertisement
Return to Factbooks and National Information
Users browsing this forum: No registered users
Advertisement