Belgium

[Crazy girl]

Belgium down to 36 nations now and counting...

'Been away for two years, just to come back and see how influence pretty much ruined this side of the game.

[Goobergunchia]

Ugh. Observed:

13 hours ago
Wallonia-Flanders
as a matter of fact, I am.

13 hours ago
Ellezelles
well, if you are,

you've had your fun, you've proven your point now just get lost

12 hours ago
Wallonia-Flanders
I will. Once I eject you all. mwahahahahaaaa >:D

12 hours ago
Leopold I
What a suuny day, here in Macedonia

11 hours ago
Ellezelles
this isn't macedonia

6 hours ago
Haken Rider
This. Is. Belgiuuuuuum!!!

3 hours ago
Marneus Calagar
Marneus Calagar fail.
Lost my delegate status. Boo.

3 hours ago
104
well I guess .....

I will be ejected anyways eventually so why wait around?

I am sad Belgium has been invaded. I mean I get it. Its cool to take over a region without a founder and refound. as I have seen throughout the years regions that are refounded never get the amount of population back. I was there in SFBA. it was great we had a forum and life and activity. And after the invasion all the native nations died.....

however there is a new hope. In the region of Kingdom of Belgium. I hope the native nations will not cease to exist here. and go ahead and do whatever you need Wallonia-Flanders. destroy the homes of all these nations. hopefully they will not give up on Nationstates.

2 hours ago
Wallonia-Flanders
Oh maaan, you were there in SFBA? You should have let me eject you I like kicking fendas.

And yes, hopefully they don't give up nationstates, and maybe even start invading.

84 minutes ago
Ellezelles
yes, people that have been invaded by you surely will become invaders. Somehow i don't see any logic behind that. But that's maybe a normal things, wouldn't want to have the same logic that powers your mind (allthough powering wouldn't be the right word)

For reference, Kingdom of Belgium has 8 nations at the moment.

[Naivetry]

Ugh? Try this, while we're posting RMB logs. It's from that first day, before the password (sorry the time stamps aren't continuous, it was moving quickly).

101 minutes ago
Wallonia-Flanders
Kapellen, your region is not pathetic - quite the opposite, its a very important one.

Thats precisely why we decided to invade it. And thats precisely why we won't turn our back to the region. No sir, we're staying to the bitter end

*eats flemmish fires*
isn't region crashing pure FUN?

96 minutes ago
Fisseha
Rading can be fun, griefing regions however is not. It should never have been left to the coding to regulate it.

83 minutes ago
Wallonia-Flanders
depends on what you mean by griefing.

the definition of griefing I know is: talking on a region's rmb with the sole purpose of annoying the members of the region.

60 minutes ago
West-Flanders
It's the Nationstates equivalent of carpet bombing.. Total Annihilation and destruction. Think Dresden in WWII.

51 minutes ago
Ellezelles
no fries for invaders

44 minutes ago
Wallonia-Flanders
http://www.nationstates.net/page=faq#etiquette

"Also prohibited is the practice of "griefing." Griefing is playing with the primary aim of annoying or upsetting other people. If you do this, the game moderators may take action against you."

I dont see how the total annihilation and destruction of the region would be griefing in this case?

33 minutes ago
West-Flanders
We're referring to invasion-griefing: totally emptying a region.

Seconds ago
Fisseha
*facepalms*

Newbies who don't know the gameplay terminology.
Also, destroying an active region, what other purpose would that have than annoying or upsetting other people.

*ponders*

Technically, it could still be labelled as griefing, me thinks.

11 minutes ago
Wallonia-Flanders
I might be a newbie (been playing for only 3 years), but in my time the definition of griefing is that which I gave. it isn't good to be an old player who doesn't know the new rules either...

Anyway, terminology is not important. What you call griefing, I call region crashing.

7 minutes ago
Fisseha
I call it ruining other people's fun and hard work.
Now, hitting a region, change the wfe, laugh at defenders, fine.
But completely destroy an old region?

3 minutes ago
Wallonia-Flanders
Hey, invading a region is hard work too. What were we doing, sitting ducks in here, getting influence? We must get our reward...

Seconds ago
Fisseha
Belgium was here long before you heard about NS.
Your reward? What is your reward? What other purpose do you have than to destroy what others have built, to spoil other people's fun? I have invaded, I have battled invaders. There are plenty of invaders I get along with, too.
But griefers like you are only out to upset people.

8 minutes ago
Haken Rider
Ah non, on parle Français à Belgique!

8 minutes ago
Wallonia-Flanders
you being upset by me doing my job is your problem...

6 minutes ago
Fisseha
Who says it's me who is upset?

Alright then, griefer, enlighten me. What is your aim in destroying active regions?

4 minutes ago
Wallonia-Flanders
having fun, of course.

4 minutes ago
Fisseha
And you can't have fun by just invading? You really need to detroy regions with it?

1 minute ago
Wallonia-Flanders
yep
it's a game dude, don't get so much on fire...

Seconds ago
Fisseha
Yeah, it's a game, and other people are playing it too, in other ways than you. This is like a bunch of people playing soccer, then some kid grabs the ball and runs off with it.

11 minutes ago
Wallonia-Flanders
yeah, the kid has fun. and plus the players can get a new ball.

9 minutes ago
West-Flanders
It's our ball! Give it back!

7 minutes ago
Wallonia-Flanders
West-Flanders, I just asked you if you wanted your ball back, and you said no...

As I said, I'm giving you time to think it through.

7 minutes ago
Dakloze Apen
We are homeless monkeys.... can we stay here for a while?

3 minutes ago
West-Flanders
You proposed to hand over the region to you. Like I said, it's ridicluous, and not going to happen

"I understand you find that childish. But hey, we're Mencer and The Macedonian Empire. That's part of our style. And plus, I am a child myself to be honest (I just turned 18 in March).

Anyway, this telegram of yours convinced me to propose a deal to you.
How about this: you tell all your friends (natives + defenders) to leave this region and regroup in another one. Then I am left alone in Belgium, and you wait for me to refound this region (anytime I see fitting). When I have refounded it, you are all free to come back to Belgium and have your own government. You'll only have me as founder and a brief description in the rmb that Belgium is related to Mencer and The Macedonian Empire (colony, protectorate, or something else if you find those offensive). And plus I'll eject spammers for you We get to boast, you get your region. It's a win-win.

The second option is me griefing your region. I'm gonna put a pasword today, and its gonna take weeks, maybe months, until I finaly get more influence then you and I eject you. Then Belgium remains with the current WFE and only my nation in it.

There is no third option. Choose."

The Nation of Wallonia-Flanders
Received: 45 minutes ago
No really, think about it. The WFE will be all yours to modify. You probably wont have regional control, but you can contact my main nation anytime you want, to change the WFE and eject people. Of course, the only part of the WFE you cant change is the one where our regions are mentioned.

The only thing you have to fear is fendas hating you for switching sides. And natives saying you're a traitor, but you can change that by putting my telegram on that forum of yours. You know, so that everyone can see it and discuss about it. And they'll be convinced. Just take your time, talk to them if you want. You dont have to reply right away.

its either win-win, or me win - you lose.

29 minutes ago
Wallonia-Flanders
yeah that "choose" is a cool ending, huh? it makes me look like I'm in charge.

... oh wait, I am

26 minutes ago
Fisseha
Well, nice to see you admit you're griefing.

26 minutes ago
Western radio works
During WW2 it took Belgium 18 days to surrender to the NAZIs. I suspect the natives of this region will fail to hold out for even this long.

24 minutes ago
104
why would you want to refound a region created without a founder?

18 minutes ago
Wallonia-Flanders
why wouldnt I? it's like asking a fisherman why would he like to catch a huge fish. what dont you understand?

16 minutes ago
Fisseha
Mocht willen dat die vis in je kuiten hapt.

11 minutes ago
Kapellen
"During WW2 it took Belgium 18 days to surrender to the NAZIs."

Yes, but remember WWI. In Flanders fields...

I'm not annoyed at all at the moment. On the contrary. A bit upset, yes, but that will surely pass.

I don't really have a problem with this, but would like more roleplay... Why are we being invaded? Was some oil found in our soil? Or is it the usual reason: our strategic position between really important regions?
If we have more roleplay, we can really be convinced that the reason for this invasion is more than just upsetting or annoying people.

8 minutes ago
Haken Rider
"During WW2 it took Belgium 18 days to surrender to the NAZIs. I suspect the natives of this region will fail to hold out for even this long."

Yeah, but we still had an army that could fight, but France already surrendered and the British were hurrying back across the channel. Not much the Belgians could do against a country ten times its size on their own...

7 minutes ago
Fisseha
Kapellen, ze willen de regio leegkieperen en vervolgens voor zichzelf houden. Wil je RP, denk dan aan het exporteren van alle belgen en van heel Belgie een prive landgoed maken.

5 minutes ago
Wallonia-Flanders
The reason is this: Belgium is a veteran region with high influence (or if you prefer, a strategic position between important regions), has no founder and has a delegate which isnt always online at update time. In my list: thats crying for an invasion.

Oh and about the roleplay:
*Junkers fly over Belgium and plant bombs all around* BOOM BOOM BOOM

[Goobergunchia]

"Also prohibited is the practice of "griefing." Griefing is playing with the primary aim of annoying or upsetting other people. If you do this, the game moderators may take action against you."

I dont see how the total annihilation and destruction of the region would be griefing in this case?

Dear lord, the irony here is almost too much to bear.

[Crazy girl]

Saddest part is, if you'd report it, the mods and admin will agree with him.

[Cow Republic]

I am sad what happened in Belgium. I don't think its fair they already have it password protected. at least in SFBA a password wasn't put in place until long after the invasion to give defenders a chance. I hardly ever see defender nations anymore, they seem scattered throughout Nationstates, as opposed to the invaders who have their home regions. I have a somewhat neutral relationship with DEN. I am not personally familar with other raiders.

[Cow Republic]

Naivetry - that is a great post, I'm glad you saved it
I was there for that, as 104. I feel lucky enough to have been online at that time. even saw the password go into place, which was disappointing as it sealed Belgiums fate

[Naivetry]

"Also prohibited is the practice of "griefing." Griefing is playing with the primary aim of annoying or upsetting other people. If you do this, the game moderators may take action against you."

I dont see how the total annihilation and destruction of the region would be griefing in this case?

Dear lord, the irony here is almost too much to bear.

I know.

Naivetry - that is a great post, I'm glad you saved it
I was there for that, as 104. I feel lucky enough to have been online at that time. even saw the password go into place, which was disappointing as it sealed Belgiums fate

It's from a member of our region who was on for it, not me, but I'll pass along the word.

[Riemstagrad]

an update from belgium:

we're still locked down and we're getting kicked one by one. the good news is that we decided to stay. if an empty belgium is what they want, they'll have to stay here. it won't help us at all, but it will give the next victim some time. and it might bore them to death

about our future region: we haven't decided yet. we were running a poll, but in the meanwhile someone created another region and is telegramming everyone to go to his region. thus, as expected, Belgium is not just moving to another region. at the moment i'm afraid we will get scattered around in 2 or 3 new safe belgiums. besides that, as always after such a griefing (wich it is!) some people will move on to other regions, some will notice they're in the RR and say something like "stupid game, this was my last log in", and some people just won't notice what happened.

after a while of very low activity, our region was becoming alive again. many posts on the RMB, people posting on our offgame forum again, oldtimers restoring their nations... and now it's all over.


on a side note: someone noticed france, who suffered the same fate, and said that few people made noise when that happened.
i must agree, as inactive i was then, i only noticed it when they were featured. but i did contact the moderators. after all, in the time i was very active, those things were simply impossible, how hard the game was played sometimes.

[Northern Chittowa]

I think its a damn disgrace whats happened to this region, and others before it. And im also damned ashamed i couldnt do a thing to stop it either, and for that i must apologise to the natives of Belguim. Its now gotten to the point where this has to stop, not purely because i think its an unmoral thing to do, but because in the long run this type of action will harm the game rather than help it.

i would like to hear the mods viewpoint on this action, whether they agree that it is too much, if they believe its just part of the game today, and indeed if they believe change may be needed. Im not asking because i want to moan or have a go at them as there is no justificaton for that, im just curious about their views tis all.

[Zemnaya Svoboda]

It seems to me that in the current framework, with current tactics, Defenders can only succeed if they are supremely vigilant and detect and stop invasions as they are occurring. This is possible, but very difficult. It does not seem to me that any current organization which defends is capable of it.

[Northern Chittowa]

It seems to me that in the current framework, with current tactics, Defenders can only succeed if they are supremely vigilant and detect and stop invasions as they are occurring. This is possible, but very difficult. It does not seem to me that any current organization which defends is capable of it.

Theres a lack of defenders about nowadays, esp. Update defenders, hence why invasions aren't being stopped whilst they are happening. No doubt the balance will switch back one day, but at the moment the invaders have the upper hand in most things.

[Todd McCloud]

Let it be known, I support raiders (I'm a former raider), but I will never support the dangerous Macedonism. I think it's a shame these empire builders are glorified.

[Lucretia Borgia]

The real shame is the cowardly way they invade. Not all raiders are bad as some would tell you or convince people to believe. This just happens to be a group of raiders too cowardly to fight to keep a region.

[Naivetry]

Theres a lack of defenders about nowadays, esp. Update defenders, hence why invasions aren't being stopped whilst they are happening. No doubt the balance will switch back one day, but at the moment the invaders have the upper hand in most things.

I don't see that happening.

As the player base gets older, people become less willing to stay up until 4:30 in the morning 7 nights a week on the off chance that they will catch someone raiding a region.

The real shame is the cowardly way they invade. Not all raiders are bad as some would tell you or convince people to believe. This just happens to be a group of raiders too cowardly to fight to keep a region.

And then to have the nerve to say they deserve to keep the region as a "reward" because they checked in on a puppet once every 60 days for a year... that they deserve it more than the nations who created, participated in, and were rebuilding an actual community.

Not all regions are communities. Belgium was one. That makes what they did not "just a game," but an act of real human destruction committed with what I can only describe as a criminal lack of social consciousness.

[Skeelzania]

Not all regions are communities. Belgium was one. That makes what they did not "just a game," but an act of real human destruction committed with what I can only describe as a criminal lack of social consciousness.

I'm not a gameplay-player, so maybe I'm missing something, but what is there to stop the former inhabitants of Belgium making another region? One where a WA Delegate doesn't have control?

At the end of the day, regions are little more than glorified message boards. Being able to build a community around that is all well and good, but I would think a true community would be able to survive the loss of a rather basic forum. Especially with how easy it is to make a new one.

[Naivetry]

Not all regions are communities. Belgium was one. That makes what they did not "just a game," but an act of real human destruction committed with what I can only describe as a criminal lack of social consciousness.

I'm not a gameplay-player, so maybe I'm missing something, but what is there to stop the former inhabitants of Belgium making another region? One where a WA Delegate doesn't have control?

At the end of the day, regions are little more than glorified message boards. Being able to build a community around that is all well and good, but I would think a true community would be able to survive the loss of a rather basic forum. Especially with how easy it is to make a new one.

viewtopic.php?p=43750#p43750

Not to be dismissive, but I've watched this happen to other regions. They just don't recover.

A region is not just a message board for gameplayers. For us, a region is most like a RL nation. It's both a territory and an identity. Think of the situation between Israel and Palestine (NOT to get into that debate)... the territory is so intimately bound up with the group identity that neither could imagine leaving.

The natives of Belgium don't have a choice, and they can't even fight back.

[Lucretia Borgia]

Not all regions are communities. Belgium was one. That makes what they did not "just a game," but an act of real human destruction committed with what I can only describe as a criminal lack of social consciousness.

I'm not a gameplay-player, so maybe I'm missing something, but what is there to stop the former inhabitants of Belgium making another region? One where a WA Delegate doesn't have control?

At the end of the day, regions are little more than glorified message boards. Being able to build a community around that is all well and good, but I would think a true community would be able to survive the loss of a rather basic forum. Especially with how easy it is to make a new one.

Okay, picture this. Tanks and armed men decide one day to come to your town and tell you "We now control this whole area. Get out or you will be removed.You can never return here to your home." Would you simply move to a new area or would you want to fight to remain where you lived out your life?

[Skeelzania]

I would fight. However, the point of contention here seems to be that the Belgians can't fight in this instance. The game's already over.

All the Belgians seem to have lost is their regional posting board. They presumably still know each other's names, can still telegram one another, still have any offsite forums. The only thing denied to them is the region itself. While they've lost the setting of their community, the relationships and people who truly made the community are still in contact with one another.

[Lucretia Borgia]

I assume that the point of this topic is to point out the flaw in the system that allows region destruction and a cry for help so this can't happen, so other regions can fight. This is a way of fighting because they have no other way to fight.

[Skeelzania]

And it certainly seems to be a flaw.

My original post was primarily in response to what I felt to be excessive moaning about the "death" of an old community.

[Moo-cows with guns]

If someone did the equivalent in real life—joined a community of friends just to destroy it—we'd call them 'sociopathic'. Around here, we apparently call it 'perfectly acceptable and a valid form of play'.

Just saying.

[Goobergunchia]

Posting for the record:

1 day ago
The Tamzakken of Ellezelles
yes, people that have been invaded by you surely will become invaders. Somehow i don't see any logic behind that. But that's maybe a normal things, wouldn't want to have the same logic that powers your mind (allthough powering wouldn't be the right word)

21 hours ago
The Nation of Wallonia-Flanders
I never actually said it was logical. I just gave you a suggestion how to increase your nationstates activity and have fun.

20 hours ago
The Tamzakken of Ellezelles
well, this game idd only allows people to have fun when invading, there'll be atime when there will be nothing left to invade though

it's a shame that it evolved this way

18 hours ago
The Nation of Wallonia-Flanders
"There's been 3 bad login attempts since your last successful login"

There was one attempt before this. I wonder who's being that pathetic as to try and hack my nation...

17 hours ago
The Republic of United Macedonian
Someone hand the belgians a tissue, my heart is breaking.

17 hours ago
The Tamzakken of Ellezelles
if your heart is breaking you might rather need a tissue yourself

12 hours ago
The Startling Empire of Riemstagrad
Bericht van de Riemstagradse Partizanen:sl

"Enkele van onzen moedigsten strijders zijn er in geslaagd in den nacht van den 1 op den 2 juni 2009 de waterkeringssluizen te openen. Heden is dan ook heel de Ijzervlakte blank gezet. Deze heldhaftige operatie heeft tot doel den vijand (den mac? den mof? den maf? den moc?) zichzelve te laten vastzuigen in den Belgischen klei.
Houd u staande beste belgen, als den vijand het land onzer vadren wil verbranden, zal hij zich zelve tot het uiterste moeten uitputten.

concreet: blijft allemaal in de regio. laat hem gerust enkelen per dag buitensjotten, het zal hem godverdomme veel tijd kosten.

7 hours ago
The World Wide Web of West-Flanders
Het West-Flandriaanse Ministerie van Buitenlansche Zakens is niet zo opgezet met de gang van zaken. De Minister verwoordde het zo: "Jamaar, wat heeft Riemst, die nochtans aan de andere kant van Belgium ligt, te zoeken in onze polders?". Niettemin werd besloten om, in het belang van de regio, deze open te laten. Een lange loopgravenoorlog is de beste manier om de bezetter te tergen en uit te putten. Het mag nu dan wel legaal zijn een regio te vernietigen, we moeten het hen ook niet gemakkelijker maken door zelf voort te gaan, en hem de regio op'n zilveren schaaltje aan te bieden, dat wilt-ie juist.
Binnenvallers hebben over't algemeen de aandachtsduur van'n goudvis. Inveiders willen inveiden. Bezetten is saai. Hoe langer ze op één plek blijven, hoe saaier ze't zullen vinden. Zodoende, hoe langer en hoe saaier het Beleg van Belgium, hoe beter. Intussen zijn die wieties ook van't straat en kunnen ze hun un niet bezigen in andere acties.

5 hours ago
The Ammonia smelling catbox of Serval Cat
Seconds ago: Serval Cat voted for the World Assembly Resolution "International Salvage Laws"

I urge our delegate to vote on this important issue.

80 minutes ago
The DEN Army Expeditionary Force of Western radio works
Personally I can't wait until this place is cleansed of all natives.

(tosses cigarette onto the carpet, grinds butt into shag with heel of foot)

[Bears Armed]

If someone did the equivalent in real life—joined a community of friends just to destroy it—we'd call them 'sociopathic'. Around here, we apparently call it 'perfectly acceptable and a valid form of play'.

Just saying.

From an IC viewpoint, isn't forcing whole nationalities out of their former homelands a case of "ethnic cleansing"?

[Northern Chittowa]

Theres a lack of defenders about nowadays, esp. Update defenders, hence why invasions aren't being stopped whilst they are happening. No doubt the balance will switch back one day, but at the moment the invaders have the upper hand in most things.

I don't see that happening.

As the player base gets older, people become less willing to stay up until 4:30 in the morning 7 nights a week on the off chance that they will catch someone raiding a region.

Well, thats taking it from one side of the update world. I do believe update is around 8am GMT and as such, it isnt so early as to put off British and certain europeans. Of course, it may not happen but by all regards it stands a high chance that people will start to get involved again.

Edit:// Had to sort out the quotes...