NATION

PASSWORD

Is it okay to lie to someone to save their life?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Hayteria
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1709
Founded: Dec 18, 2005
Ex-Nation

Is it okay to lie to someone to save their life?

Postby Hayteria » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:12 pm

Last night there was an interesting episode of "House" (I'm not particularly into that show... at least not yet... but I did recognize the character when flicking through channels) which I think was called "Unwritten."

It was about a patient who wants to kill herself because she considers it her own fault that her son died in a car accident. In order to talk her out of killing herself and into accepting an operation that would save her life, House tells said patient that her son died of a brain aneurysm, and that this would have happened with or without the car accident. Basically, the idea is that the truth would have led her to kill herself, whereas a lie kept her alive. House's boss, disappointed that House would lie to a patient even though that patient would have otherwise killed herself, tries to talk House into telling the truth instead, but even when he's about to, he changes his mind at the last second.


Now, when it comes to the issue of lying to one to save the life of another, an often-cited "extreme" example of circumstance that justifies lying would be for if a Nazi officer was coming to your home and asking if you were hiding Jews... it's generally regarded as a sufficient justification for lying, and I agree; saving the lives of innocents is easily worth lying to someone, especially if it's someone who obviously deserves to be lied to. At worst it's a violation of the principle of honesty, but I think saving innocent lives justifies it.

With lying to save someone from themselves, however, we're dealing with a somewhat different issue. I still think it's justified even then, (or at least in the kind of circumstances portrayed in said "House" episode) but at the same time I could easily imagine almost-convincing counterarguments... such as the idea that if the truth leads someone to suicide, and it takes a lie to talk them out of it, then they ought to go where the truth takes them. Personally, though, I'd consider that a little TOO truth-centric an approach.

This isn't necessarily the only reason, of course, it's just an example of a reason in the opposite direction from what I'm otherwise inclined to think; that even lying is justified if it's in the name of trying to convince someone not to end their own life.

What do you think?
Last edited by Hayteria on Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Lackadaisical2
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 50831
Founded: Mar 03, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Lackadaisical2 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:14 pm

I don't believe in saving people from themselves, so I wouldn't lie to them to stop 'em from committing suicide.
The Republic of Lanos wrote:Proud member of the Vile Right-Wing Noodle Combat Division of the Imperialist Anti-Socialist Economic War Army Ground Force reporting in.

User avatar
Norstal
Post Czar
 
Posts: 41465
Founded: Mar 07, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Norstal » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:18 pm

No. Lying always bites one's ass later in life.
Toronto Sun wrote:Best poster ever. ★★★★★


New York Times wrote:No one can beat him in debates. 5/5.


IGN wrote:Literally the best game I've ever played. 10/10


NSG Public wrote:What a fucking douchebag.



Supreme Chairman for Life of the Itty Bitty Kitty Committee

User avatar
UCUMAY
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6312
Founded: Aug 27, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby UCUMAY » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:19 pm

I would have lied to save jews. I wouldn't lie to keep someone from seeing the scope of their life. I personally say enable suicide and donate their organs. Just my humble opinion.
The Proclaimed Psycho on NSG
About me
I may be young, and that's okay. Since age does not always bring wisdom. I may be stubborn to the point of stupidity; but at least I fight for my beliefs. I may be fooled by a lie; but I can then say I trusted. My heart may get broken however, then I can say I truly loved. With all this said I have lived. :D

I'm politically syncretic so stop asking. :)
My political and social missions

User avatar
Hayteria
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1709
Founded: Dec 18, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Hayteria » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:20 pm

Norstal wrote:No. Lying always bites one's ass later in life.

The ass of the one being lied to or of the one doing the lying? If the former, would that make dying the better alternative for them, and if the latter, how severely would it have to bite THEM in the ass for it to not be worth it for having saved someone's life?

User avatar
FREEaquaticdancelesson
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1031
Founded: Nov 08, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby FREEaquaticdancelesson » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:22 pm

It depends on if the person deserves to live or not.
If they do, then yes.
Humans AREN'T monkeys, they're apes.

As an atheist, my view is that all religions are equally as true as the last.
Hehehe :)

YOU HAVE BEEN CONDITIONED SINCE BIRTH
THINKof how many references to "god" you say in your daily life,
"God!", "Damn it!", "Hell!", "Oh lord!", "Bless you", "holy shit!", "Godspeed" etc.
THINK of all the war propaganda you endure every day
NEWS, VIDEO GAMES, MOVIES, MUSIC, COMMERCIALS.
THINK of how avid consumerism is a part of your life.
Brand loyalty, Commercialism, Drug company monopolies, Class dictated by wealth, Bailouts.
CAPITALISM IS NOT THE SAME AS CONSUMERISM.


Relax....

User avatar
Jello Biafra
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6402
Founded: Antiquity
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Jello Biafra » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:23 pm

Yes. Suicidal impulses are often temporary. They can be told the truth when they're over it.

User avatar
Norstal
Post Czar
 
Posts: 41465
Founded: Mar 07, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Norstal » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:25 pm

Hayteria wrote:
Norstal wrote:No. Lying always bites one's ass later in life.

The ass of the one being lied to or of the one doing the lying? If the former, would that make dying the better alternative for them, and if the latter, how severely would it have to bite THEM in the ass for it to not be worth it for having saved someone's life?

Depends on the situation. Could be both, could be just one of the two subjects. Like Lacky said, House's objective was to save the patient from suicide. It could be done by telling the truth or lying, its true, but lying is just a temporary fix. Sooner or later, perhaps never, the patient will find out about the lie.
Toronto Sun wrote:Best poster ever. ★★★★★


New York Times wrote:No one can beat him in debates. 5/5.


IGN wrote:Literally the best game I've ever played. 10/10


NSG Public wrote:What a fucking douchebag.



Supreme Chairman for Life of the Itty Bitty Kitty Committee

User avatar
Zilam
Diplomat
 
Posts: 828
Founded: Aug 18, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Zilam » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:26 pm

In the case of the House episode, I would lie, and then prod them into getting the help they needed to deal with the grief of that loss.
I'm not who I was.

User avatar
Nullivan
Diplomat
 
Posts: 582
Founded: Nov 29, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Nullivan » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:33 pm

FREEaquaticdancelesson wrote:It depends on if the person deserves to live or not.
If they do, then yes.

Who are you, hell, who is anyone, to decide who "deserves" to live?


The Empire of Nullivan Factbook
The Nullivan National Anthem

Pronunciations
Nullivan - Null-ih-van (The nation itself - The Empire of Nullivan)
Nullivania - Null-ih-van-ya (The people of Nullivan)
Nullivanian Null-ih-vain-ian (Anything belonging to Nullivan - eg. The Nullivanian Empire)

User avatar
Greed and Death
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 53383
Founded: Mar 20, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Greed and Death » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:35 pm

One time thing then Yes.
Something I would have to keep up forever with them then no.
"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house."(paraphrase from debate with Hilary Clinton)
Barack Obama

User avatar
Norstal
Post Czar
 
Posts: 41465
Founded: Mar 07, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Norstal » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:35 pm

FREEaquaticdancelesson wrote:It depends on if the person deserves to live or not.
If they do, then yes.

That is egotistical on so many level.
Its like 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon, except theres one 1 degree and its your ego.
Toronto Sun wrote:Best poster ever. ★★★★★


New York Times wrote:No one can beat him in debates. 5/5.


IGN wrote:Literally the best game I've ever played. 10/10


NSG Public wrote:What a fucking douchebag.



Supreme Chairman for Life of the Itty Bitty Kitty Committee

User avatar
New York - New Jersey
Envoy
 
Posts: 282
Founded: Dec 07, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby New York - New Jersey » Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:52 pm

It's part of my job to lie to people to save them from themselves, I'm an EMT. I have had my fare share of losers who might as well off themselves but I have to convince them they have something to live for. It's particularly hard when you know the person is an asshole that say beats his girlfriend or wife and in a moment of depression tried to OD and rid the world of his sorry ass but I have to revive him and try to convince him he has something to live for.

It's not a job for the mentally or emotionally weak and I feel much better lying to good people who are going to die but want to live than losers like the above mentioned.
Last edited by New York - New Jersey on Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Allied States of
New York - New Jersey
Never Forget 343 FDNY
Firefighting is a brotherhood and I miss my brothers

User avatar
Greed and Death
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 53383
Founded: Mar 20, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Greed and Death » Tue Dec 28, 2010 3:14 pm

Norstal wrote:
FREEaquaticdancelesson wrote:It depends on if the person deserves to live or not.
If they do, then yes.

That is egotistical on so many level.
Its like 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon, except theres one 1 degree and its your ego.

and that is how people should function.
"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house."(paraphrase from debate with Hilary Clinton)
Barack Obama

User avatar
Angleter
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12359
Founded: Apr 27, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Angleter » Tue Dec 28, 2010 3:59 pm

I've seen this episode (well, I think so- but House does this a lot), and yes. I've always thought that to prefer death to life-saving treatment suggests you're not all there.
Last edited by Angleter on Tue Dec 28, 2010 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[align=center]"I gotta tell you, this is just crazy, huh! This is just nuts, OK! Jeezo man."

User avatar
Gagatron
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1979
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Gagatron » Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:01 pm

No lies required. The truth can be as sweet as honey.
God, I want to dream again,
Take me where I've never been.
I wanna go there,
This time I'm not scared.
Music, love, peace, joy, history, religion, foreign cultures, foreign language, philosophy, debating, etc.


Zilam wrote:It always strikes me funny when people always complain "If God is good, why does he allow evil to exist"....Yet when God destroys every evil person in a flood, its a bad thing.

All sin is deserving of death.

User avatar
Iron Chariots
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1414
Founded: Jun 08, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Iron Chariots » Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:39 pm

Gagatron wrote:No lies required. The truth can be as sweet as honey.

That's a very optimistic view.
Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: -5.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.13

User avatar
Georgism
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9940
Founded: Mar 30, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Georgism » Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:42 pm

I don't think lies are all that bad to begin with *shrug*
Georgism Factbook (including questions and answers)
¯\(°_o)/¯
Horsefish wrote:I agree with George

User avatar
Georgism
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9940
Founded: Mar 30, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Georgism » Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:47 pm

Gagatron wrote:No lies required. The truth can be as sweet as honey.

It can be. Usually isn't though.
Georgism Factbook (including questions and answers)
¯\(°_o)/¯
Horsefish wrote:I agree with George

User avatar
Coccygia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7521
Founded: Nov 24, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Coccygia » Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:51 pm

Hayteria wrote:Now, when it comes to the issue of lying to one to save the life of another, an often-cited "extreme" example of circumstance that justifies lying would be for if a Nazi officer was coming to your home and asking if you were hiding Jews... it's generally regarded as a sufficient justification for lying, and I agree; saving the lives of innocents is easily worth lying to someone, especially if it's someone who obviously deserves to be lied to. At worst it's a violation of the principle of honesty, but I think saving innocent lives justifies it.

This reminds me of a possibly apocryphal story about a performance of The Diary of Anne Frank in which the lead actress was so dreadfully bad that when the Nazis showed up to search the house, people in the audience started yelling, "She's in the attic!"

As to the main pint, however...WTF? Lying is the worst thing in the world? As House himself might say, "Truth is overrated." We lie all the time and a lot of it is OK; white lies, gray lies...so what's the big deal about lying to save someone's life? If you're dead, truth, lies, what difference does is it gonna make to you? I'm with House on this one. (I'm with House on most of 'em, actually.)

BTW the woman in this case was (like nearly everybody on House except House) an idiot. >:(
"Nobody deserves anything. You get what you get." - House
"Hope is for sissies." - House
“Qokedy qokedy dal qokedy qokedy." - The Voynich Manuscript
"We're not ordinary people - we're morons!" - Jerome Horwitz
"A book, any book, is a sacred object." - Jorge Luis Borges
"I am a survivor. I am like a cockroach, you just can't get rid of me." - Madonna

User avatar
Sibirsky
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44940
Founded: Mar 22, 2009
Anarchy

Postby Sibirsky » Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:57 pm

Jello Biafra wrote:Yes. Suicidal impulses are often temporary. They can be told the truth when they're over it.

:shock:

I agree with Jello Biafra.
Free market capitalism, path to prosperity
Свободный рынок капитализма, путь к процветанию
IBC 7 Finalists
8 Gold, 9 Silver, 2 Bronze medals IV Summer Olympics
2 Silver, 4 Bronze medals V Winter Olympics
Golfinator Classic Champion
Scott Cup I Champions
World Bowl 11 4th Place

User avatar
Sibirsky
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44940
Founded: Mar 22, 2009
Anarchy

Postby Sibirsky » Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:01 pm

There are many examples of "good" lies. For example lying to the police to get out of trouble, lying on your tax return to pay less in taxes, lying to your girlfriend about cheating on her with her best friend, lying to your girlfriend about her hair looks so not to disappoint her, lying to her about how her dress looks, lying to save someone's life.
Free market capitalism, path to prosperity
Свободный рынок капитализма, путь к процветанию
IBC 7 Finalists
8 Gold, 9 Silver, 2 Bronze medals IV Summer Olympics
2 Silver, 4 Bronze medals V Winter Olympics
Golfinator Classic Champion
Scott Cup I Champions
World Bowl 11 4th Place

User avatar
SaintB
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21792
Founded: Apr 18, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby SaintB » Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:01 pm

Lying to save another's life is just dandy. Its more honest to lie and save a life than to tell the truth and let someone die.
Hi my name is SaintB and I am prone to sarcasm and hyperbole. Because of this I make no warranties, express or implied, concerning the accuracy, completeness, reliability or suitability of the above statement, of its constituent parts, or of any supporting data. These terms are subject to change without notice from myself.

Every day NationStates tells me I have one issue. I am pretty sure I've got more than that.

User avatar
Sibirsky
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44940
Founded: Mar 22, 2009
Anarchy

Postby Sibirsky » Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:02 pm

New York - New Jersey wrote:It's part of my job to lie to people to save them from themselves, I'm an EMT. I have had my fare share of losers who might as well off themselves but I have to convince them they have something to live for. It's particularly hard when you know the person is an asshole that say beats his girlfriend or wife and in a moment of depression tried to OD and rid the world of his sorry ass but I have to revive him and try to convince him he has something to live for.

It's not a job for the mentally or emotionally weak and I feel much better lying to good people who are going to die but want to live than losers like the above mentioned.

Sounds like a difficult and demanding job.
Free market capitalism, path to prosperity
Свободный рынок капитализма, путь к процветанию
IBC 7 Finalists
8 Gold, 9 Silver, 2 Bronze medals IV Summer Olympics
2 Silver, 4 Bronze medals V Winter Olympics
Golfinator Classic Champion
Scott Cup I Champions
World Bowl 11 4th Place

User avatar
Lackadaisical2
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 50831
Founded: Mar 03, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Lackadaisical2 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:02 pm

SaintB wrote:Lying to save another's life is just dandy. Its more honest to lie and save a life than to tell the truth and let someone die.

...hows that 'more honest' exactly?
The Republic of Lanos wrote:Proud member of the Vile Right-Wing Noodle Combat Division of the Imperialist Anti-Socialist Economic War Army Ground Force reporting in.

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Herador, Hypron, New Vavlar, Stellar Colonies, Tillania, Varsemia

Advertisement

Remove ads