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The War That Never Was - An Alternate-History RP | (OOC)

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Orostan
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Founded: May 02, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Orostan » Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:55 pm

Cybernetic Socialist Republics wrote:
Orostan wrote:If the USSR keeps posting cringe I might put Mao into power later and show them how it's done.


the cringe is the baby-brained parody of Marxism-leninism that some how revolves around giving you everything you want for nothing that you want me to play in a fundamentally different timeline.

>nooo you have to respect the existence of the Manchu SSR with no Manchus in it
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.

Napoleon Bonaparte wrote:“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”

Cicero wrote:"In times of war, the laws fall silent"



#FreeNSGRojava
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Reverend Norv
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Reverend Norv » Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:31 pm

I have finished everything but the history section of my app. What is written already should be enough for folks to get a sense of Britain and the Imperial Federation in this timeline, and to factor that into their considerations. I am hoping to see some applications for British dominions over the next few weeks, which would flesh out the Federation's internal politics and create some interesting dynamics.
For really, I think that the poorest he that is in England hath a life to live as the greatest he. And therefore truly, Sir, I think it's clear that every man that is to live under a Government ought first by his own consent to put himself under that Government. And I do think that the poorest man in England is not at all bound in a strict sense to that Government that he hath not had a voice to put himself under.
Col. Thomas Rainsborough, Putney Debates, 1647

A God who let us prove His existence would be an idol.
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Rygondria
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Founded: Nov 12, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Rygondria » Sat Feb 11, 2023 8:42 pm

Thinking maybe a Fascist Greece under a Metaxist regime mixed in with Mengali idea.

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St George Territory
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Posts: 480
Founded: Apr 04, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby St George Territory » Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:44 pm

Reservation Request

Country Name: The Dominion of Canada
Territory: Canada pre-1949
Don't remove, helps me find this later: RESERVATION!


Hopefully Reverend Norv will be alright with me taking Canada, no problem if that'll be an issue.
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Reverend Norv
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Posts: 3808
Founded: Jun 20, 2014
New York Times Democracy

Postby Reverend Norv » Sat Feb 11, 2023 11:59 pm

St George Territory wrote:
Reservation Request

Country Name: The Dominion of Canada
Territory: Canada pre-1949
Don't remove, helps me find this later: RESERVATION!


Hopefully Reverend Norv will be alright with me taking Canada, no problem if that'll be an issue.


On the contrary - I am excited to see some dominions join the picture! Please refer to my app on the previous page for details about the mechanics of the new Imperial Federation, and I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
For really, I think that the poorest he that is in England hath a life to live as the greatest he. And therefore truly, Sir, I think it's clear that every man that is to live under a Government ought first by his own consent to put himself under that Government. And I do think that the poorest man in England is not at all bound in a strict sense to that Government that he hath not had a voice to put himself under.
Col. Thomas Rainsborough, Putney Debates, 1647

A God who let us prove His existence would be an idol.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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St George Territory
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Posts: 480
Founded: Apr 04, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby St George Territory » Sun Feb 12, 2023 12:13 am

Reverend Norv wrote:
St George Territory wrote:
Reservation Request

Country Name: The Dominion of Canada
Territory: Canada pre-1949
Don't remove, helps me find this later: RESERVATION!


Hopefully Reverend Norv will be alright with me taking Canada, no problem if that'll be an issue.


On the contrary - I am excited to see some dominions join the picture! Please refer to my app on the previous page for details about the mechanics of the new Imperial Federation, and I look forward to seeing what you come up with.


Great to hear, I'm trying to come up with something coherent for my app, I don't think it'll be as fantastic as yours, but I'll try something. Hoping you can come up with a history soon as well, so I can have an idea of where I'll fit in with the Imperial Federation.
Last edited by St George Territory on Sun Feb 12, 2023 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Reverend Norv
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Founded: Jun 20, 2014
New York Times Democracy

Postby Reverend Norv » Sun Feb 12, 2023 12:41 am

St George Territory wrote:
Reverend Norv wrote:
On the contrary - I am excited to see some dominions join the picture! Please refer to my app on the previous page for details about the mechanics of the new Imperial Federation, and I look forward to seeing what you come up with.


Great to hear, I'm trying to come up with something coherent for my app, I don't think it'll be as fantastic as yours, but I'll try something. Hoping you can come up with a history soon as well, so I can have an idea of where I'll fit in with the Imperial Federation.


I am working on it. For now, assume more or less the same history until 1914, so you can at least base your assumptions on that foundation. I will try to get a timeline out in the next day or two, at which point my app will be complete.
For really, I think that the poorest he that is in England hath a life to live as the greatest he. And therefore truly, Sir, I think it's clear that every man that is to live under a Government ought first by his own consent to put himself under that Government. And I do think that the poorest man in England is not at all bound in a strict sense to that Government that he hath not had a voice to put himself under.
Col. Thomas Rainsborough, Putney Debates, 1647

A God who let us prove His existence would be an idol.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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St George Territory
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Posts: 480
Founded: Apr 04, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby St George Territory » Sun Feb 12, 2023 12:48 am

WIP

Sovereign Factbook



Dominion of Canada,
a constituent state of
The British Imperial Federation


Flag:
ImageImage
The Federation Jack on top, with the red ensign on bottom.


Sovereign Territory plus territorial claims, if any:
Image[/img]
Map of the Imperial Federation, Canada is at the top left North of the United States.


People and Society

Population: 11.15 million
Ethnic groups: Anglo and French Canadian are the dominant groups, but there are large numbers of other Europeans, Chinese and First Nations peoples.
Languages: English and French
Religions: Protestant and Catholic
Population growth rate: 2.1% As a result of a 'greener-grass' campaign, generous efforts to give out farm land to new arrivals to Canada if they are able to clear the land and produce have borne fruit in attracting immigrants from Europe to the praries.

Government and Politics


Government Type:
Capital City: Ottawa
Head of State:
Image
His Britannic Majesty, the King of Canada George V

Head of Government:
Image
The Right Honourable Prime Minister Robert Manion

Legislature:
Other Legislative Bodies: Remove this line if your country's legislature is unicameral.

Ruling Party: The Conservate Alliance managed a loose hold on the 1935 election, with barely a mandate it is up to Manion to justify why he should hold office in the next election against King and his growing band of Liberals rallying around his banner.

Other Political Parties: His Majesty's Loyal Opposition is headed by the firebrand that is William Lyon Mackenzie King, a man of the people in contrast of the Manion being held under the thumb of CN rail. Liberal Party, Co-operative Commonwealth, Social Credit Part, New Democracy, Communist, Farmer-Labour Party

Economics


GDP: $74,171,967,213.11 in 1990 Canadian Dollars
GDP per capita: $7,246
Economic system: The Canadian economic system follows in the footsteps of the British one, a laissez faire system that is greatly prone to abuse by the larger corporations and some smaller American businesses that have creeped north of the border. While there is some hope for the lowly worker, as a result of strikes in the 1920's, some social policies were introduced to alleviate the burden of a financial collapse that ended the Borden administration and laid the groundwork of King's liberal government's 'working man's policy.' These programs included a pension system, and larger corporations are required to give reduced or free healthcare.
Agricultural products: One of the breadbaskets of the British Empire, from sea to sea Canadian farmers work night and day to produce more than enough food to feed both Canada and abroad; through grains and vegetables, the meats and dairy industries are as well serving as the top exports of the nation.
Industries: Manufacturing is limited to the major cities such as Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa. Canada provides more in raw resources; metals and timbre are abundant in the nation, but with a limited population the ability to
Major trade partners: The Imperial Federation, the United States, and France.
Imported commodities: Many manufactured products from Britain and the United States such as automobiles, trains, electronics, etc.
Exported commodities: Bitumen, numerous agricultural products, lumber products, minerals and some manufactured items.
Exchange Rate: $1.11 Canadian dollars grants $1 United States dollars. The British pound is slowly being introduced into the monetary supply, but with great trouble.

Issues & Foreign Relations


Domestic Issues:
• The Trans-Canadian Menace
The Canadian National Railway has proved to be a thorn in the side of the Manion administration, from snuffing out any competition to being the sword of Damocles over Manion, the powerful cartel that has aligned with other business magnates of Imperial Oil and International Nickel. The three companies hold the weak Conservative coalition with an iron grip, effectively ensuring their control over the economy of the nation.

• Les Quebecois
Manion being Catholic and French wasn't by accident, as the Conservatives sought the French vote to squeak by the Liberals in the 1935 federal elections, this hasn't sat easily with many in the ruling caucus, and with some in Quebec who seek greater freedoms from the Anglo-centric political theatre that is Ottawa.

• The Red Dawn
A number of unions have formed amongst the farmers, miners and other workers seeking greater protections, and other unions have formed seeking to emulate the Soviets under Bukharin, Ottawa has enacted many heavy handed measures to appease the industry barons with deploying troops and the RCMP to confront any 'communist subversion,' real or otherwise.
Transnational Issues:
• Pax Britannica
The question of Canada has come under frequent examination, be it as a dominion, or a state held under the thumb of a crumbling empire, thrashing against the modern world, Manion and the conservatives time after time have proclaimed loyalty to the old empire, to the annoyance of many in Quebec. King, lacks such enthusiasm for Joseph Ward's dream.
Treaties: Canada is a signatory of the Hague Convention and the Paris Naval Treaty
International Organization membership: The British Imperial Federation, as well as a number of minor organizations.

Public Goals: Preserve the British system, grow the Canadian economy
Secret Goals: The primary goal is to subvert the Soviet Union and deny them any chance at expansion as far as Canada can manage.

Military


Military Branches: The Canadian military is small, underprepared and suffers from a lack of purpose. With friendly relations with the United States, and consecutive governments slashing funding, the small force is nonetheless dedicated and well disciplined, with a well-deserved reputation as the shock troops of Empire, it begs the question of how much the country could risk in the next war should it come. The Branches of the Canadian Military are: Royal Canadian Navy, Royal Canadian Air Force, Canadian Army and the Canadian Militia.

Military Expenditure: 2.3% which equates to $1,702,000,000 in terms of 1990 currency.
Personnel Strength(active service): 55,000
Personnel Strength(in reserve): 30,000
Total Personnel: 88,000 personnel
Overseas Deployments: N/A

Army: The Canadian Army is an all-volunteer force, poorly funded but well trained with the equipment available, hand-me-downs from Britain are the primary arms of the Army, with the Canadian Militia receiving their scraps. Prime Minister Manion, however has promised to reinvigorate the armed forces, as storm clouds grow over the world, or perhaps whispers from the Crystal Palace have inspired the current government to grow and outfit the army to something that may survive the next conflict.

Navy: The Canadian Navy while small, is the most adept of the branches, with the Halifax Shipyard being the shining jewel of Canadian naval manufacturing, the strategy falls around being able to safely ferry troops and supplies to Britain to keep the fighting far from our shores. The focus has been brought away from large battleships to light cruisers and destroyers to guard the cargo ships, agile and hopefully able to face the challenge of modern naval combat.
6x Tribal Class Destroyers
1x Fiji Class Cruiser (under construction)
1x A Class Destroyer
3x C Class Destroyer
14x Isles Class Trawler


Air Force: The Royal Canadian Airforce is likewise small and underfunded, being primarily used to patrol the frontier that is the great nothingness of the Canadian shield and beyond, lacking teeth, it's bark is far worse than its bite. Bush pilots are what comprise a great number of its recruits, daring perhaps, but without the war planes to make an impact.

History


• 1884 - Canada under Prime Minister John A. Macdonald seeks entry into the Imperial Federation League, as a way of growing ties towards Britain and strengthening defences against possible American encroachment.

• 1885 The last spike is driven into the transcontinental railway by Lord Strathcona, connecting East and West. This would as well begin Canadian National Railway's strict hold over the government, bringing down Macdonald's government in a bribery affair. This year would also have the Metis folk hero Louis Riel hanged for his sedition during the Red River Rebellion.

• 1896 - Sir Clifford Sifton, pushing reforms to encourage immigration from throughout the Empire and those suffering on the continent, forever changing Canada's demographics and expanding the Praries.

• 1902 - 7,000 Canadian soldiers and 12 nurses are sent to assist Imperial forces fighting the Boers in South Africa.

• 1907 - Canada is given status as a self-governing dominion as a result of the fourth imperial conference.

• 1920 - The Russian revolution had taken the world by storm, no less then in Canada as activists such as Tim Buck begin organizing labour unions to the great annoyance of the big three cartel. Small fights between organizers and strike-breakers are becoming a more frequent occurrence.

• 1921 - The Borden government had failed time and time again to deal with the collapse of labour relations between the United Canadian Miner's Union and International Nickel, the troubles between the miners and the strike-breakers with support of the RCMP and militia came to a bloody conclusion on what was dubbed 'Black Friday' where federal opened fire on protesters waving red banners, resulting in three deaths. The result of this was the complete collapse of Borden's administration with William L.M. King's Liberals taking a majority and enforcing greater regulations on mining operations in the nation and working with the unions to improve general quality of life.

• 1922 - News from Russia was met in Canada with horror, as fears that repeated strikes could result in Communist revolution, many liberals crossed the aisle to the new Conservative leader Arthur Meighen's opposition party, fervently criticizing King's lacklustre response towards the 'red menace' as was being declared in the gutter press.

• 1923 - Prime Minister William Lyon Mackenzie King, rejects a request to send Canadian troops to Vladivostok from British Prime Minister Lloyd George, fearing loss of confidence from members of his party and the greater public that may come from defeat in Russia. Protests from the pro-Imperial public break throughout the Dominion, met with resistance from pro-unionist and communist counter protests.

• 1926 - King's party fails to maintain it's control in the election, a general feeling of shame blankets over the election as a result of the Vladivostok crisis, a great 'what if?' is felt throughout the dominion, with the new government under Meighen promising greater ties with the Empire, embracing the ideas of New Zealand's Ward.

• 1932 - R.B. Bennett, seeking a way to make the Canadian economy more competitive, joins in on the Eighth Conference's ideas of a single market and currency. While the disestablishment of the gold standard and the government's moving away from Canadian dollars is met with disdain by farmers in Alberta and Saskatchewan, this would hang over his government until a vote of no confidence would cause the 1935 election.

• 1935 - Manion is made the Conservative Alliance leader with Bennett's retirement to Britain, holding the election by good luck alone in what was described as 'The Miracle on the St. Lawrence.' Manion manages to hold enough Quebec seats to form a government and keep King's party at bay. A major promise of his administration being to make the Ward Constitution the law of the land. 'Long was the road' is rumoured to have had an impact as it was a best seller in Canada.

• 1937 - The Ninth Imperial Conference fulfils Manion's promise with the Dominion's approval of the Ward constitution.

• 1938 - Canada stands at the crossroads of history, with a weak military, she has enjoyed over a century of relative peace and prosperity, will she be able to handle the storm clouds that gather around the world? Only time will tell.



Don't remove, helps me find this later: APPLICATION!
Last edited by St George Territory on Thu Feb 16, 2023 1:05 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Cybernetic Socialist Republics
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Posts: 2201
Founded: May 17, 2019
New York Times Democracy

Postby Cybernetic Socialist Republics » Mon Feb 13, 2023 3:17 pm

I'm going to be proactive about this in case anyone has an issue with my latest IC. The Soviets had a civilian nuclear research program OTL with publicly published results. The orginal post says that technology advancements are 1941 (3 years ahead) except military, which is 1938 and this is specifically not a military nuclear program. Relevant text clip from the new scientist magazine in the spoiler below:

Image

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New Eestiball
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Posts: 653
Founded: Jan 06, 2021
Left-wing Utopia

Postby New Eestiball » Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:26 pm

Cybernetic Socialist Republics wrote:I'm going to be proactive about this in case anyone has an issue with my latest IC. The Soviets had a civilian nuclear research program OTL with publicly published results. The orginal post says that technology advancements are 1941 (3 years ahead) except military, which is 1938 and this is specifically not a military nuclear program. Relevant text clip from the new scientist magazine in the spoiler below:


just pointing out that plutonium was discovered DURING 1941, for any future reference.
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Tracian Empire
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Posts: 26885
Founded: Mar 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Tracian Empire » Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:50 am

Yeah I do not think that advances in nuclear power should be made. It might qualify under the rule, but considering how most of the early development of nuclear power was done for strictly military uses, I don't think that it's something that should happen ICly.

Also the notion that the Soviet program was to be fully peaceful is hilarious. The main reason the program was "peaceful" was because at the time the Soviet leadership was not taking the notion of uranium bombs seriously. The Soviet committee tried to repeatedly convince Stalin to allocate funding for nuclear bomb research. So the notion that a Soviet nuclear program ICly would be directed solely towards civilian uses makes little sense and disregards the way in which nuclear power developed IRL.

Just my two cents, up to the OP in the end.
Last edited by Tracian Empire on Tue Feb 14, 2023 6:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cybernetic Socialist Republics
Minister
 
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Founded: May 17, 2019
New York Times Democracy

Postby Cybernetic Socialist Republics » Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:41 am

Tracian Empire wrote:Yeah I do not think that advances in nuclear power should be made. It might qualify under the rule, but considering how most of the early development of nuclear power was done for strictly military uses, I don't think that it's something that should happen ICly.

Also the notion that the Soviet program was to be fully peaceful is hilarious. The main reason the program was "peaceful" was because at the time the Soviet leadership was not taking the notion of uranium bombs seriously. The Soviet committee tried to repeatedly convince Stalin to allocate funding for nuclear bomb research. So the notion that a Soviet nuclear program ICly would be directed solely towards civilian uses makes little sense and disregards the way in which nuclear power developed IRL.

Just my two cents, up to the OP in the end.



I'd like some citation that research started in the late 20s/30s was started with the intention of building a bomb. Every thing I've read suggests that this was fundamental research that only became mlitary related after the USSR was invaded.

Having looked it up, the earliest I can find a report on weaponization is october 1940.
Last edited by Cybernetic Socialist Republics on Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Tracian Empire
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Founded: Mar 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Tracian Empire » Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:14 am

Cybernetic Socialist Republics wrote:
Tracian Empire wrote:Yeah I do not think that advances in nuclear power should be made. It might qualify under the rule, but considering how most of the early development of nuclear power was done for strictly military uses, I don't think that it's something that should happen ICly.

Also the notion that the Soviet program was to be fully peaceful is hilarious. The main reason the program was "peaceful" was because at the time the Soviet leadership was not taking the notion of uranium bombs seriously. The Soviet committee tried to repeatedly convince Stalin to allocate funding for nuclear bomb research. So the notion that a Soviet nuclear program ICly would be directed solely towards civilian uses makes little sense and disregards the way in which nuclear power developed IRL.

Just my two cents, up to the OP in the end.



I'd like some citation that research started in the late 20s/30s was started with the intention of building a bomb. Every thing I've read suggests that this was fundamental research that only became mlitary related after the USSR was invaded.

I never said that the Soviet research was done with the intent of building a bomb. The Soviet research was pretty much nothing - that's the reason for why it was peaceful and public. It accomplished almost nothing, and it was all but shut off when the Germans invaded.

I'm saying that in general, all the nuclear projects that actually did anything and received funding did so while trying to develop an atomic bomb. The notion of also using nuclear power for civilian uses did exist, but governments that bought into the idea of nuclear power did so for its military uses first. It was the same for the Soviets - the program achieved very little, and it was only after Stalin was convinced of the feasibility of a nuclear bomb later on that the nuclear scientists were brought back together and an actual nuclear program was established.

So the notion that the Soviets would be funding a purely civilian nuclear power is difficult to believe and it raises a lot of issues. Because nuclear tech isn't something that you can easily divide into something purely civilian and something purely military. There is just no way for scientists to not also think of the military applications. If the Soviet program is at its 1941 level, which admittedly doesn't matter much, then it means that as an example the Americans and the British would also have their tech in 1941. So hypothetically we could be a year and a half before the first artificial nuclear reactor.

Of course, in and of itself it's not an issue because I don't think we'll cover two to three years in the IC, but it's conceptually something that doesn't really work and it could be easily argued that it clashes with the military rule.

Furthermore, the notion that the USSR would view uranium as a potential energy source makes no sense. At this point in time, the few uranium deposits that the USSR knows that it has are in the Fergana valley, are of poor quality and of difficult and expensive extraction. It was precisely one of the main reasons for why the Uranium Committee did very little work - they spent most of their time trying and failing to find uranium.
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HISPIDA
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Founded: Jun 21, 2021
Anarchy

Postby HISPIDA » Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:31 am

okay, sorry for the delay but the last week has been way busier than i expected it to be. i've finally had time to work on my opener. expect it by the end of this week.
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Reverend Norv
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Postby Reverend Norv » Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:17 pm

I expect my history section - and therefore my app - to be finished tomorrow.
For really, I think that the poorest he that is in England hath a life to live as the greatest he. And therefore truly, Sir, I think it's clear that every man that is to live under a Government ought first by his own consent to put himself under that Government. And I do think that the poorest man in England is not at all bound in a strict sense to that Government that he hath not had a voice to put himself under.
Col. Thomas Rainsborough, Putney Debates, 1647

A God who let us prove His existence would be an idol.
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Upper Magica
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Founded: Nov 13, 2022
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Upper Magica » Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:38 pm

Heck yeah. I'll have a French opening post up by tonight.

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Cybernetic Socialist Republics
Minister
 
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Founded: May 17, 2019
New York Times Democracy

Postby Cybernetic Socialist Republics » Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:43 pm

Tracian Empire wrote:
Cybernetic Socialist Republics wrote:

I'd like some citation that research started in the late 20s/30s was started with the intention of building a bomb. Every thing I've read suggests that this was fundamental research that only became mlitary related after the USSR was invaded.

I never said that the Soviet research was done with the intent of building a bomb. The Soviet research was pretty much nothing - that's the reason for why it was peaceful and public. It accomplished almost nothing, and it was all but shut off when the Germans invaded.

I'm saying that in general, all the nuclear projects that actually did anything and received funding did so while trying to develop an atomic bomb. The notion of also using nuclear power for civilian uses did exist, but governments that bought into the idea of nuclear power did so for its military uses first. It was the same for the Soviets - the program achieved very little, and it was only after Stalin was convinced of the feasibility of a nuclear bomb later on that the nuclear scientists were brought back together and an actual nuclear program was established.

So the notion that the Soviets would be funding a purely civilian nuclear power is difficult to believe and it raises a lot of issues. Because nuclear tech isn't something that you can easily divide into something purely civilian and something purely military. There is just no way for scientists to not also think of the military applications. If the Soviet program is at its 1941 level, which admittedly doesn't matter much, then it means that as an example the Americans and the British would also have their tech in 1941. So hypothetically we could be a year and a half before the first artificial nuclear reactor.

Of course, in and of itself it's not an issue because I don't think we'll cover two to three years in the IC, but it's conceptually something that doesn't really work and it could be easily argued that it clashes with the military rule.

Furthermore, the notion that the USSR would view uranium as a potential energy source makes no sense. At this point in time, the few uranium deposits that the USSR knows that it has are in the Fergana valley, are of poor quality and of difficult and expensive extraction. It was precisely one of the main reasons for why the Uranium Committee did very little work - they spent most of their time trying and failing to find uranium.


The idea that the Soviet nuclear research was nothing just wrong. They built the first cyclotron in europe and had 3 up and running at the same time Germany had one. In 1939 the Commissariat of Power Plants and Electrical Industry wrote a letter asking to centralize nuclear research in ukraine, so obviously atomic energy was being thought off in power generation terms at the time.

To just write it off as military technology when it clearly wasn't thought of it that unfair handicap. I don't think other country's industrial strengths, for example, when it comes to automobile and ship construction, are going to neutered just because of their obvious military applications. Rocketry is another field the USSR has an advantage in, but I don't expect I get to do anything with that either because its a 'military technology.'

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Deblar
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Posts: 5187
Founded: Jan 28, 2021
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Deblar » Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:05 pm

Life’s been unexpectedly busy lately, so I haven’t been able to properly work on my app just yet. Trying to get at least the bulk of it done by this weekend

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Tracian Empire
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26885
Founded: Mar 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Tracian Empire » Wed Feb 15, 2023 1:53 am

Cybernetic Socialist Republics wrote:
Tracian Empire wrote:I never said that the Soviet research was done with the intent of building a bomb. The Soviet research was pretty much nothing - that's the reason for why it was peaceful and public. It accomplished almost nothing, and it was all but shut off when the Germans invaded.

I'm saying that in general, all the nuclear projects that actually did anything and received funding did so while trying to develop an atomic bomb. The notion of also using nuclear power for civilian uses did exist, but governments that bought into the idea of nuclear power did so for its military uses first. It was the same for the Soviets - the program achieved very little, and it was only after Stalin was convinced of the feasibility of a nuclear bomb later on that the nuclear scientists were brought back together and an actual nuclear program was established.

So the notion that the Soviets would be funding a purely civilian nuclear power is difficult to believe and it raises a lot of issues. Because nuclear tech isn't something that you can easily divide into something purely civilian and something purely military. There is just no way for scientists to not also think of the military applications. If the Soviet program is at its 1941 level, which admittedly doesn't matter much, then it means that as an example the Americans and the British would also have their tech in 1941. So hypothetically we could be a year and a half before the first artificial nuclear reactor.

Of course, in and of itself it's not an issue because I don't think we'll cover two to three years in the IC, but it's conceptually something that doesn't really work and it could be easily argued that it clashes with the military rule.

Furthermore, the notion that the USSR would view uranium as a potential energy source makes no sense. At this point in time, the few uranium deposits that the USSR knows that it has are in the Fergana valley, are of poor quality and of difficult and expensive extraction. It was precisely one of the main reasons for why the Uranium Committee did very little work - they spent most of their time trying and failing to find uranium.


The idea that the Soviet nuclear research was nothing just wrong. They built the first cyclotron in europe and had 3 up and running at the same time Germany had one. In 1939 the Commissariat of Power Plants and Electrical Industry wrote a letter asking to centralize nuclear research in ukraine, so obviously atomic energy was being thought off in power generation terms at the time.

To just write it off as military technology when it clearly wasn't thought of it that unfair handicap. I don't think other country's industrial strengths, for example, when it comes to automobile and ship construction, are going to neutered just because of their obvious military applications. Rocketry is another field the USSR has an advantage in, but I don't expect I get to do anything with that either because its a 'military technology.'


In between 1938 and 1941 they did almost nothing, that was my point. By 1937 yes, they had a cyclotron, but by 1939 the Germans had discovered fission, while the Soviet program was in disarray. The Great Purge did somewhat limit them, but the main reason was their lack of radium and uranium to use in research, as I have mentioned. Just look at what you've shown me - their request to centralize nuclear research means that at the point it was not centralized, and furthermore this centralization in Kharkiv did not happen.

Yes, as I have said, the notion that it could also be used for power generation did exist, although the fact that the letter was written by the Commissariat of Power Plants and Electrical Industry means little - that letter was written in the context of the reorganization of the Soviet Government. The Ukrainian Institute of Physics and Technology, which as the letter shows, was a good place for atomic research, had, as the letter again shows, belonged to the NKPT, the People's Commissariat of Heavy Industry. Said Commissariat was divided into six separate commissariats in early 1939, and it seems that the Commissariat of Power Plants and Electrical Industry was initially in charge of it and proposed transferring it to the Academy of Sciences of USSR.

The main point is that you just can't easily rip apart nuclear tech in strictly civilian and strictly military. The comparison to automobile and ship industry isn't really good considering that these do not lead to nuclear bombs like nuclear research does.

Furthermore, the issue is also with your post. IRL as you can very easily see, the Uranium Committee did very little and received very little support. I don't think that any government change in the USSR could radically change it, nor do I think that they could have proven that nuclear energy generation is a future for Soviet power generation, because they simply do not have the radium and the uranium for the research or for a hypothetical future of nuclear reactors, something that Soviet scientists were very aware of in real life. That much for Resource Efficiency.

But in the end like I said, this is just my opinion, it's up to the OP, so the discussion isn't really going anywhere. If the OP wants nuclear research to be at its 1941 levels, sure.
I'm a Romanian, a vampire, an anime enthusiast and a roleplayer.
Hello there! I am Tracian Empire! You can call me Tracian, Thrace, Thracian, Thracr, Thracc or whatever you want. Really.

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Upper Magica
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Postby Upper Magica » Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:20 am

HMM. I find that although NOT QUITE necessarily historical, nuclear research offers a nice way to drive up the stakes, and thus it serves the purpose of the narrative; it's plausible, given greater Russian entry into the global marketplace. Plus, I don't believe this Soviet nuclear project's anything like Manhattan; which, as everyone knows, was a big ol' money sink.

Framing post up in about a week for next IC month! Hopefully some... interesting things will happen.

Disclaimer/friendly reminder: all reservations/unfinished applications not under active WIP will be released by the same time mentioned above unless the author of said WIP piece requests an extension. RL happens, etc. I'll have a list of those at risk of being trimmed off shortly.

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Ovstylap
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Postby Ovstylap » Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:27 am

Hello, still around, had training and some family things, so just the history to finish for my Poland-Lithuania app, was my military approved?

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Tracian Empire
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Postby Tracian Empire » Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:33 am

Very well, if driving up the stakes is the name of the game, and nuclear research is more advanced, Danubia would likely have its own private nuclear research. Leo Szilard is unlikely to have left Europe with Hitler not being a thing, and would have likely remained in Danubia and Germany, Lise Meitner, Otto Robert Frisch, Paul Harteck, Josef Mattauch and Georg Stetter are all likely to be part of the Danubian-German science scene, and there would likely be quite a lot of cooperation between the University of Vienna and the Kaiser-Wilhelm Institut. The Soviet announcement would in turn likely convince Germany and Danubia to further focus on their own research, and Danubia might propose a collaboration to the Germans, making use of the extensive uranium deposts in Czechoslovakia.
I'm a Romanian, a vampire, an anime enthusiast and a roleplayer.
Hello there! I am Tracian Empire! You can call me Tracian, Thrace, Thracian, Thracr, Thracc or whatever you want. Really.

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Upper Magica
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Postby Upper Magica » Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:53 am

Ovstylap wrote:Hello, still around, had training and some family things, so just the history to finish for my Poland-Lithuania app, was my military approved?


Oh, sure. I do notice some entries in that section are blank.

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Ovstylap
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Postby Ovstylap » Wed Feb 15, 2023 8:53 am

Upper Magica wrote:
Ovstylap wrote:Hello, still around, had training and some family things, so just the history to finish for my Poland-Lithuania app, was my military approved?


Oh, sure. I do notice some entries in that section are blank.


I will amend them, thank you!

Edit: Ah man I think part of the issue is I have lost a bunch of what I had made as a draft has been lost or something, I'll get it amended when I can!!
Last edited by Ovstylap on Wed Feb 15, 2023 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Reverend Norv
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Postby Reverend Norv » Wed Feb 15, 2023 1:48 pm

Reverend Norv wrote:I have finished everything but the history section of my app. What is written already should be enough for folks to get a sense of Britain and the Imperial Federation in this timeline, and to factor that into their considerations. I am hoping to see some applications for British dominions over the next few weeks, which would flesh out the Federation's internal politics and create some interesting dynamics.


My app is complete! There should be a detail or two in that history for almost every admitted player or applicant, fleshing out the UK role regarding your country. I am, of course, happy to make any changes y'all might wish.
For really, I think that the poorest he that is in England hath a life to live as the greatest he. And therefore truly, Sir, I think it's clear that every man that is to live under a Government ought first by his own consent to put himself under that Government. And I do think that the poorest man in England is not at all bound in a strict sense to that Government that he hath not had a voice to put himself under.
Col. Thomas Rainsborough, Putney Debates, 1647

A God who let us prove His existence would be an idol.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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