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by Major-Tom » Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:53 pm
by Chan Island » Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:54 pm
Nevertopia wrote:Alcala-Cordel wrote:Not really. We don't have to go back to a previous system, we could always build a new one where workers control the means of production...
It gives the power to wealthy people with entirely different interests than those of the majority.
Only if you have enough slaves in your gulag to make up for the lack of specialization. The great thing about capitalism is you can empower the people with wealth, until you have something called the middle class where most of the wealth, population and voting power is. Imagine that, the majority is also wealthy and have the most say in politics. What a wonderful system.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.
by Betoni » Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:54 pm
Annihilators of Chan Island wrote:Torisakia wrote:It’s all the same really. Presidential elections, state elections, neighborhood HOA elections, we’re all just mindless slaves with no break to the cycle. Live, work, die. There is no end and we must all suffer.
Well, if you want to let them think you are a mindless slave, you're welcome to prove them right.
Or you can step up.
by Chan Island » Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:11 pm
Betoni wrote:Annihilators of Chan Island wrote:
Well, if you want to let them think you are a mindless slave, you're welcome to prove them right.
Or you can step up.
The voting majority has really fucked up if they, and the organizations they vote for, think that people who don't participate by voting are mindless slaves. This whole shtick about voting, or other active political participation, being the only "right" way to make a difference is both tiresome and a serious misunderstanding of your own system.(Not saying that's your position, but seen it floated around in the general discourse) And no, if you decide not to participate you do not lose the right to complain or comment on the system. When the "sleeping voters" become large enough of a group then the parties will try to engage these people and mayhap some candidate will be more to their liking when they change their platform to engage these voters. And if the non voters as a group become large enough the whole system might need to be changed. Now, admittedly these are far from great strategies with controlled outcomes. Seeing as the non voters are not likely to have much common with one other, so the likelihood of you getting the outcome you desire is minimal. But if the current batch of parties, or candidates, are so far removed from what you want in the first place, not voting can be seen as a valid alternative and worth the gamble. I have not voted on more than couple of the elections I was eligible to vote on, mainly for not finding a good enough candidate and couple of times for feeling that I didn't have enough knowledge to give an informed vote. Though I'm not the one complaining about my vote or its importance so that's not really important. Just saying there can be well though out and sensible reasons why people choose not to vote.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.
by Betoni » Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:47 am
Chan Island wrote:Betoni wrote:
The voting majority has really fucked up if they, and the organizations they vote for, think that people who don't participate by voting are mindless slaves. This whole shtick about voting, or other active political participation, being the only "right" way to make a difference is both tiresome and a serious misunderstanding of your own system.(Not saying that's your position, but seen it floated around in the general discourse) And no, if you decide not to participate you do not lose the right to complain or comment on the system. When the "sleeping voters" become large enough of a group then the parties will try to engage these people and mayhap some candidate will be more to their liking when they change their platform to engage these voters. And if the non voters as a group become large enough the whole system might need to be changed. Now, admittedly these are far from great strategies with controlled outcomes. Seeing as the non voters are not likely to have much common with one other, so the likelihood of you getting the outcome you desire is minimal. But if the current batch of parties, or candidates, are so far removed from what you want in the first place, not voting can be seen as a valid alternative and worth the gamble. I have not voted on more than couple of the elections I was eligible to vote on, mainly for not finding a good enough candidate and couple of times for feeling that I didn't have enough knowledge to give an informed vote. Though I'm not the one complaining about my vote or its importance so that's not really important. Just saying there can be well though out and sensible reasons why people choose not to vote.
You misunderstand my argument; by 'them' I was referring to those in power, who are the ones who often think of everyone else as mindless slaves. Not voting would confirm those inclinations as you then do not take even the barest most basic step available to oppose them.
As for the rest of your argument, it's one that would be convincing if there wasn't a much more effective voting choice around, called spoiling your ballot. Politicians usually don't care at all about non-voters because, as you say, people not voting could mean a vast plethora of things. By definition there is no input, no data point in a place that matters for them to act upon.
By contrast, large numbers of people spoiling their ballots always sparks a frantic debate in the halls of power. This is because it can really only come down to a small handful of reasons: either the ballot was too complicated or screwed up (in which case politicians worry that maybe thousands of their own voters are unintentionally not voting for them, which is a direct, serious concern to their power). Or it could mean that vast numbers of people are willing to go the distance to the polling booth to specifically write down about how awful the choices are- a potential new power bloc, already semi-mobilised, just inviting new challengers to come and take a crack at their jobs.
So that argument still promotes voting- and while others may disagree, I see spoiling the ballot as an integral, valid choice in a democracy.
by Emotional Support Crocodile » Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:33 am
by Chan Island » Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:21 am
Betoni wrote:Chan Island wrote:
You misunderstand my argument; by 'them' I was referring to those in power, who are the ones who often think of everyone else as mindless slaves. Not voting would confirm those inclinations as you then do not take even the barest most basic step available to oppose them.
As for the rest of your argument, it's one that would be convincing if there wasn't a much more effective voting choice around, called spoiling your ballot. Politicians usually don't care at all about non-voters because, as you say, people not voting could mean a vast plethora of things. By definition there is no input, no data point in a place that matters for them to act upon.
By contrast, large numbers of people spoiling their ballots always sparks a frantic debate in the halls of power. This is because it can really only come down to a small handful of reasons: either the ballot was too complicated or screwed up (in which case politicians worry that maybe thousands of their own voters are unintentionally not voting for them, which is a direct, serious concern to their power). Or it could mean that vast numbers of people are willing to go the distance to the polling booth to specifically write down about how awful the choices are- a potential new power bloc, already semi-mobilised, just inviting new challengers to come and take a crack at their jobs.
So that argument still promotes voting- and while others may disagree, I see spoiling the ballot as an integral, valid choice in a democracy.
Oh, so the mysterious them, who think everyone else is a mindless slave put in power by voters who supposedly prove that assertion wrong by putting these horrible people in power, and you think this is a good argument to get other people involved in this strange ritual?
I don't really see much difference between voting for donald duck and not voting. All it really tells the would be politicians fishing for votes is that you don't have to work that hard to get these people to vote for you as opposed to those ones that didn't even bother to go voting. I don't know if that is a good thing or not. I would question if spoiling a ballot is anymore effective than not voting. Politicians don't care about non voters until some other politician manages to get them voting. Or until large enough percentage of eligible voters decide not to vote making the mandate questionable and thus shaking the whole system. That being the point of not voting. Though, mostly I suspect the most likely reason not to vote is apathy and just not being bothered enough.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.
by Ethikia » Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:51 am
Emotional Support Crocodile wrote:Even if power just bounces back and forth between two large parties, you are still voting on their policy platforms, which in turn shapes their future policy positions.
by Emotional Support Crocodile » Fri Sep 23, 2022 4:30 am
Ethikia wrote:Emotional Support Crocodile wrote:Even if power just bounces back and forth between two large parties, you are still voting on their policy platforms, which in turn shapes their future policy positions.
If there's only two polarized parties you don't have a say in their policies because you don't have alternative, the only thing that matters are the primaries and still the range of options in a primary are limited. Some parts of the country would be de facto one party systems because it would be unthinkable to see the other party elected
by Ethikia » Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:29 am
Emotional Support Crocodile wrote:Ethikia wrote:If there's only two polarized parties you don't have a say in their policies because you don't have alternative, the only thing that matters are the primaries and still the range of options in a primary are limited. Some parts of the country would be de facto one party systems because it would be unthinkable to see the other party elected
Yes you do have an influence. Their policy platforms change, and they move in the direction they think will get them most votes.
by San Lumen » Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:21 am
Ethikia wrote:Emotional Support Crocodile wrote:
Yes you do have an influence. Their policy platforms change, and they move in the direction they think will get them most votes.
Only if the competition is close, that's why I said some parts of a country (like deep blue or deep red). I grew up in a part of my country where it was unthinkable to elect a different party for basically 70 years. At the end the "policy platform" basically did not existed and still they got voted out because of a national-level cultural shift.
Some parts of US will slowly become one-party systems if something does not change. Some States already have the entirety of their democratic competition in primaries, I hope there's a legal obligation to have them or they will basically have local democracy only because of the goodwill of Republican and Democrat party.
by Haganham » Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:43 am
Major-Tom wrote:I'm pretty disillusioned this cycle because I don't believe in the Democratic Party and think that it is a hollow, opportunistic institution as a whole. But the modern incarnation of the GOP scares me so much that I feel my vote matters insofar as to deny the GOP a chance to regain the Senate and House.
by Forever Indomitable » Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:53 am
San Lumen wrote:You are completely ignorant of history and you peddling pseudoscience too.
The Sherpa Empire wrote:
If you don't receive anything in return for participating in society, why don't you just go to a deserted island or an uninhabited wilderness?
Oh, right, those places don't have running water, convenient road access, electricity, internet, grocery stores, or any of the other hundreds of things you use that come from other people's work.
So don't sit there and tell us you aren't getting anything out of it when you participate in society.
You don't get to decide what everyone else does, but you have tons of choices about how you want to live your own life. Maybe spend less time ranting about "society" and more time working on your own life.
Oh, right, those places don't have running water, convenient road access, electricity, internet, grocery stores, or any of the other hundreds of things you use that come from other people's work.
You don't get to decide what everyone else does, but you have tons of choices about how you want to live your own life. Maybe spend less time ranting about "society" and more time working on your own life.
by San Lumen » Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:03 am
Forever Indomitable wrote:Emotional Support Crocodile wrote:
That makes you sound like such a fucking drama queen.
Is it dramatic to state that the sky is blue? I don't share a similar platform with anyone, so that means everyone is factually opposed to me.San Lumen wrote:You are completely ignorant of history and you peddling pseudoscience too.
Because making assertions that are backed up by well established scientific evidence is "pseudoscience" .The Sherpa Empire wrote:
If you don't receive anything in return for participating in society, why don't you just go to a deserted island or an uninhabited wilderness?
Oh, right, those places don't have running water, convenient road access, electricity, internet, grocery stores, or any of the other hundreds of things you use that come from other people's work.
So don't sit there and tell us you aren't getting anything out of it when you participate in society.
You don't get to decide what everyone else does, but you have tons of choices about how you want to live your own life. Maybe spend less time ranting about "society" and more time working on your own life.
I mean that I don't receive anything as a result of political influence. The people that vote for popular, viable parties actually receive things they vote for. What I get is a result of what's slopped on the plate in front of me & you & everyone else just tell me to shut the fuck up & eat it. I don't have a choice. Yeah, technology & utilities are a luxury and I wouldn't want to do without it and I appreciate peoples' work. But the thing is, that's where it all stops. As far as actual freedom or proliferating what I value in this life at a social level, it doesn't happen. If materialism was such a boon to the soul, people from developed nations wouldn't kill themselves, but life isn't just about the material things at your fingertips.
Oh, right, those places don't have running water, convenient road access, electricity, internet, grocery stores, or any of the other hundreds of things you use that come from other people's work.
A prison also has shelter, food, electricity and structure, but it's still a prison and I'm in an open air prison with no gang to belong to and I live at the mercy of the world. I have to watch what I say; I have to deal with having barely anything in common with anyone, and I get to be alone and lonely.You don't get to decide what everyone else does, but you have tons of choices about how you want to live your own life. Maybe spend less time ranting about "society" and more time working on your own life.
And when did I ever say or imply about wanting to decide about what everyone else does? I haven't and I don't want to, but society does not grant me the same courtesy. Your solution is literally "deal with it or fuck off to the woods" and yet you have the audacity to call me selfish. Amazing.
And I dare to speak about my experience and you tell me to shut up and mind my business, while simultaneously telling me I have a "voice" in this society of yours. So, I do "work on my life" because it's the only thing I have. You have no idea the amount of work I do, so get off your high horse.
by Forever Indomitable » Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:53 am
San Lumen wrote:
None of your claims are backing up scientific evidence. Politics is not genetic. If it was how do areas change voting patterns?
You have an incredibly entitled and selfish attitude. Just because someone in office doesn't personally benefit you doesn't mean they aren't benefitting society as whole.
The world doesn't revolve around you and your needs.
You have an incredibly entitled and selfish attitude.
Just because someone in office doesn't personally benefit you doesn't mean they aren't benefitting society as whole.
The world doesn't revolve around you and your needs.
by Michel Meilleur » Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:00 am
by The United Penguin Commonwealth » Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:10 am
Forever Indomitable wrote:A prison also has shelter, food, electricity and structure, but it's still a prison and I'm in an open air prison with no gang to belong to and I live at the mercy of the world. I have to watch what I say; I have to deal with having barely anything in common with anyone, and I get to be alone and lonely.
by San Lumen » Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:52 am
Forever Indomitable wrote:San Lumen wrote:
None of your claims are backing up scientific evidence. Politics is not genetic. If it was how do areas change voting patterns?
You have an incredibly entitled and selfish attitude. Just because someone in office doesn't personally benefit you doesn't mean they aren't benefitting society as whole.
The world doesn't revolve around you and your needs.
I literally posted the evidence in the post you originally replied to:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29152902/
"Twin and family studies have showed that personality traits are moderately heritable, and can predict various lifetime outcomes, including psychopathology."
"Despite considerable efforts over the past several decades, the genetic variants that influence personality are only beginning to be identified."
https://bookofodds.com/relationships-so ... physiology
"And since people aren’t often inclined to pair off with those who don’t share their political views (the odds a woman reports having similar views to her partner is 1 in 1.18, or about 85%), if politics are genetic, we’re likely to get them from both sides of the family tree."
Areas can change voting patterns through various ways like immigration, emigration, migration, redrawing districts and so on. All of these things always start at a biological basis.You have an incredibly entitled and selfish attitude.
Right, because wanting something when you have next to nothing is "incredibly selfish and entitled"....holy shit, just SMDH.Just because someone in office doesn't personally benefit you doesn't mean they aren't benefitting society as whole.
Ah, so you concede my life or anyone's life outside the majority doesn't matter. Thank you for the honesty. "Benefit" is subjective, btw, and we will never stop having conflicts about it because everyone's idea of it is different.The world doesn't revolve around you and your needs.
That's right; it revolves around yours.
by Forever Indomitable » Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:16 pm
San Lumen wrote:Forever Indomitable wrote:I literally posted the evidence in the post you originally replied to:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29152902/
"Twin and family studies have showed that personality traits are moderately heritable, and can predict various lifetime outcomes, including psychopathology."
"Despite considerable efforts over the past several decades, the genetic variants that influence personality are only beginning to be identified."
https://bookofodds.com/relationships-so ... physiology
"And since people aren’t often inclined to pair off with those who don’t share their political views (the odds a woman reports having similar views to her partner is 1 in 1.18, or about 85%), if politics are genetic, we’re likely to get them from both sides of the family tree."
Areas can change voting patterns through various ways like immigration, emigration, migration, redrawing districts and so on. All of these things always start at a biological basis.
Right, because wanting something when you have next to nothing is "incredibly selfish and entitled"....holy shit, just SMDH.
Ah, so you concede my life or anyone's life outside the majority doesn't matter. Thank you for the honesty. "Benefit" is subjective, btw, and we will never stop having conflicts about it because everyone's idea of it is different.
That's right; it revolves around yours.
You have not shown politics is genetic. If this is true how does an areas voting pattern change?
I did not say your life didn’t matter or that the world revolved around me.
What would you like to have that you don’t and what do you expect your elected officials to do about it?
by Major-Tom » Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:17 pm
Haganham wrote:Major-Tom wrote:I'm pretty disillusioned this cycle because I don't believe in the Democratic Party and think that it is a hollow, opportunistic institution as a whole. But the modern incarnation of the GOP scares me so much that I feel my vote matters insofar as to deny the GOP a chance to regain the Senate and House.
This is the root of the problem. People prop up the DNC that they have been locked out of, because they are scared of a GOP that is there for the taking.
by San Lumen » Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:18 pm
Forever Indomitable wrote:San Lumen wrote:
You have not shown politics is genetic. If this is true how does an areas voting pattern change?
I did not say your life didn’t matter or that the world revolved around me.
What would you like to have that you don’t and what do you expect your elected officials to do about it?
I did show politics are genetic. Reread the original links I gave you because I'm on phone and can't repost them (easily) right now.
I would like to live in a world that's more interesting and with a wider variety of people, creativity, challenge and stimuli. I expect my elected officials to do nothing about it because it runs counter to their interest, as it does to the vast majorities that elect them, and people don't want to compromise on anything, regardless of what team they're on.
For example, something I would like to see is drastic prison/"justice" reform. While I'd prefer the complete abolishment of the government, police, and the prison system, I'd be happy to see a program where convicted felons just complete a bachelor's degree and are released, regardless of the offense. Education is proven to radically decrease recidivism and educating prisoners would help with creating upward mobility in the poorest demographics and help the economy. Most importantly, it helps my race and humanity because it facilitates more cognitive diversity and slightly reduces genetic domestication. More interesting and multifaceted people would be given a chance to be created through reproduction, instead of all the generic, single dimensional people we're currently stuck with. I doubt that will happen, though, because democracy, like all authorian systems, wants to domesticate and subjugate it's population for the sake of control. The developed world is still waging a Malthusian eugenic war against its populations. That's probably a big reason why conjugal visits have been virtually abolished in the US. Our rulers want sheep.
by Necroghastia » Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:27 pm
by Annihilators of Chan Island » Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:53 pm
Forever Indomitable wrote:San Lumen wrote:
You have not shown politics is genetic. If this is true how does an areas voting pattern change?
I did not say your life didn’t matter or that the world revolved around me.
What would you like to have that you don’t and what do you expect your elected officials to do about it?
I did show politics are genetic. Reread the original links I gave you because I'm on phone and can't repost them (easily) right now.
I would like to live in a world that's more interesting and with a wider variety of people, creativity, challenge and stimuli. I expect my elected officials to do nothing about it because it runs counter to their interest, as it does to the vast majorities that elect them, and people don't want to compromise on anything, regardless of what team they're on.
For example, something I would like to see is drastic prison/"justice" reform. While I'd prefer the complete abolishment of the government, police, and the prison system, I'd be happy to see a program where convicted felons just complete a bachelor's degree and are released, regardless of the offense. Education is proven to radically decrease recidivism and educating prisoners would help with creating upward mobility in the poorest demographics and help the economy. Most importantly, it helps my race and humanity because it facilitates more cognitive diversity and slightly reduces genetic domestication. More interesting and multifaceted people would be given a chance to be created through reproduction, instead of all the generic, single dimensional people we're currently stuck with. I doubt that will happen, though, because democracy, like all authorian systems, wants to domesticate and subjugate it's population for the sake of control. The developed world is still waging a Malthusian eugenic war against its populations. That's probably a big reason why conjugal visits have been virtually abolished in the US. Our rulers want sheep.
by Torisakia » Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:06 pm
Annihilators of Chan Island wrote:Torisakia wrote:It’s all the same really. Presidential elections, state elections, neighborhood HOA elections, we’re all just mindless slaves with no break to the cycle. Live, work, die. There is no end and we must all suffer.
Well, if you want to let them think you are a mindless slave, you're welcome to prove them right.
Or you can step up.
[TNN] A cargo ship belonging to Torisakia disappeared off the coast of Kostane late Wednesday evening. TBI suspects foul play. || Congress passes a T$10 billion aid package for the Democratic Populist rebels in Kostane. To include firearms, vehicles, and artillery.
by San Lumen » Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:20 pm
Torisakia wrote:Annihilators of Chan Island wrote:
Well, if you want to let them think you are a mindless slave, you're welcome to prove them right.
Or you can step up.
I don't think, I know. Try and step up, and they drag you under the water. Sometimes a shark takes the bait, and sinks the whole ship. There is no freedom of voice, only repression. There is no hope for humanity. We're all doomed until the end of time. Believing otherwise is just sticking your head in the sand.
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