My Vote Doesn't Matter

[American Legionaries]

Yes, that is how democracy works. But why work within a system that ensures I have no expectation of success, when I can instead undermine that system and hopefully cause it's collapse?

In a democratic society, if your political beliefs hold no merit then its the responsibility of the collective to decide for itself that it doesn't belong. Thats a good thing, bad ideas should be rejected. Maybe reflect on your political beliefs and see where you may have gotten it wrong. For example undermining democracy because you can't get what you want is a political belief that has no merit and should be rejected.

Yes, we've established what is supposed to happen in a democratic society. I don't see why those norms should be anything that concern me. As for undermining democracy to get what I want, it has the blatantly obvious merit of getting me what I want.

[Cybus1]

In a democratic society, if your political beliefs hold no merit then its the responsibility of the collective to decide for itself that it doesn't belong. Thats a good thing, bad ideas should be rejected. Maybe reflect on your political beliefs and see where you may have gotten it wrong. For example undermining democracy because you can't get what you want is a political belief that has no merit and should be rejected.

Yes, we've established what is supposed to happen in a democratic society. I don't see why those norms should be anything that concern me. As for undermining democracy to get what I want, it has the blatantly obvious merit of getting me what I want.

"I don't see why those norms should be anything that concern me"
Because violating socio-political norms and attempting to undermine the political foundation of our society for your own personal benefit is pretty much recognized by everyone to be wrong. Violating socio-politcical norms can have various penalties, ranging from the informal ("Hey everyone, American Legionaries hates democracy!") to the formal (say, arrest, hypothetically, depending on how exactly you intend to undermine the system). It's pretty basic sociology, and also common sense.

[Chan Island]

Voting will always beat not voting, thats how democracy works. If you're not participating in the system no matter how insignificant you are, you're giving yourself even less of a voice than if you became politically activated and applied yourself to the democratic process by advocating your views and convincing others to vote likewise. Thats how this works, you speak, you rally, you vote and through the mediums of free speech and protest, a free society is able to negotiate with itself in what it believes is best for the group. Its not about how useless your vote is, its participating in that negotiation and seeing how receptive the rest of society is to your views. Maybe the reason your vote is useless is because you voted for the wrong thing? Thats also a possibility, and thats part of the process. Useless things get discarded for better ideas. If your beliefs are worth merit then your vote isnt useless and holds true with the rest of the population.

Yes, that is how democracy works. But why work within a system that ensures I have no expectation of success, when I can instead undermine that system and hopefully cause it's collapse?

There's a couple of really good reasons, actually.

1) Because democracy is the system where you are most likely to see success in getting the change you want. As I described, democracies let you pursue many many avenues to force change in the country. Non-democratic systems around at the moment just don't have that option.

2) Because what makes you think a collapse will work out for you? The history books are full of all kinds of collapses. Some of them worked out well, in the long run. Some of them created crueller, more vicious tyrants than the last. Most landed somewhere in the middle. Nearly all were brutish, horrid affairs with mass destruction and death. Is that what you want? Is that something that will work out for you?

3) Because you are not undermining the democracy by simply not voting. Ironically, apart from violence, democracies freely give their citizens the tools they'd use to actually undermine and destroy the very system. Protests, persuasion, free assembly, a right to privacy- sometimes even a straight up right to own firearms- these are the things that can change history. Hell, more than one democracy right now has elected straight up leaders who are contemptuous of the very democracy that got them in power. Are you using them though? Doesn't look like it.

[Nevertopia]

In a democratic society, if your political beliefs hold no merit then its the responsibility of the collective to decide for itself that it doesn't belong. Thats a good thing, bad ideas should be rejected. Maybe reflect on your political beliefs and see where you may have gotten it wrong. For example undermining democracy because you can't get what you want is a political belief that has no merit and should be rejected.

Yes, we've established what is supposed to happen in a democratic society. I don't see why those norms should be anything that concern me. As for undermining democracy to get what I want, it has the blatantly obvious merit of getting me what I want.

Then I have a democratic duty to vote and suppress your political beliefs as they are not compatible with a just society. For a democratic society to continue functioning, it is the duty of the people to make sure people like you never ever get to win. So yes, your vote doesn't matter and it never will.

But for those who are part of grassroots political activism who advocate for egalitarian policies that may not be so well adopted, those sort of "useless votes" should be voted for anyways since a small voice is still a voice and so long as it has merit it will eventually not be useless after all.

[American Legionaries]

Yes, we've established what is supposed to happen in a democratic society. I don't see why those norms should be anything that concern me. As for undermining democracy to get what I want, it has the blatantly obvious merit of getting me what I want.

"I don't see why those norms should be anything that concern me"
Because violating socio-political norms and attempting to undermine the political foundation of our society for your own personal benefit is pretty much recognized by everyone to be wrong. Violating socio-politcical norms can have various penalties, ranging from the informal ("Hey everyone, American Legionaries hates democracy!") to the formal (say, arrest, hypothetically, depending on how exactly you intend to undermine the system). It's pretty basic sociology, and also common sense.

The present socio-political norms are vile and repulsive, so being viewed as wrong by such a system's supporters is hardly a condemnation. And the more formal penalties, as you've put them, seem far more tolerable than the alternative solution offered. So basically you're pointing out that even a failed attempt at toppling this governmental system would result in an outcome preferable to not attempting at all.

[Nevertopia]

"I don't see why those norms should be anything that concern me"
Because violating socio-political norms and attempting to undermine the political foundation of our society for your own personal benefit is pretty much recognized by everyone to be wrong. Violating socio-politcical norms can have various penalties, ranging from the informal ("Hey everyone, American Legionaries hates democracy!") to the formal (say, arrest, hypothetically, depending on how exactly you intend to undermine the system). It's pretty basic sociology, and also common sense.

The present socio-political norms are vile and repulsive, so being viewed as wrong by such a system's supporters is hardly a condemnation. And the more formal penalties, as you've put them, seem far more tolerable than the alternative solution offered. So basically you're pointing out that even a failed attempt at toppling this governmental system would result in an outcome preferable to not attempting at all.

Thats nice, have fun losing at the polls.

[Excidium Planetis]

1) Complaining that your vote has no effect and then admitting you don't even vote is laughable. It's like saying that it's impossible to find employment and then admitting you haven't applied anywhere in the last 4 years. You know what doesn't influence the outcomes of elections? Not voting.

2) If you're in the cognitive minority, first of all, you probably deserve to be there. There's an endless supply of insane, immoral, or dumb ideas to be had in the world, but we shouldn't allow the people who have them to get their way just because those ideas are in the "cognitive minority".

3) If you don't like point 2, fix the real problem. Make your ideas into the cognitive majority by convincing people of their superiority or at least convince them that the alternatives are worse. You can't just expect you to get your way in a democracy without convincing people to support your side, that's not how it works.

[Cybus1]

"I don't see why those norms should be anything that concern me"
Because violating socio-political norms and attempting to undermine the political foundation of our society for your own personal benefit is pretty much recognized by everyone to be wrong. Violating socio-politcical norms can have various penalties, ranging from the informal ("Hey everyone, American Legionaries hates democracy!") to the formal (say, arrest, hypothetically, depending on how exactly you intend to undermine the system). It's pretty basic sociology, and also common sense.

The present socio-political norms are vile and repulsive, so being viewed as wrong by such a system's supporters is hardly a condemnation. And the more formal penalties, as you've put them, seem far more tolerable than the alternative solution offered. So basically you're pointing out that even a failed attempt at toppling this governmental system would result in an outcome preferable to not attempting at all.

But this begs the question; what is repulsive about the present socio-political norms? Are they repulsive simply because you can't get what you want under them? If so, then you are just being selfish.
If you have broader moral or political reasonings beyond not being to get what you specifically want, then by all means, form a political party, see if anyone else is similarly disposed.

[American Legionaries]

Yes, that is how democracy works. But why work within a system that ensures I have no expectation of success, when I can instead undermine that system and hopefully cause it's collapse?

There's a couple of really good reasons, actually.

1) Because democracy is the system where you are most likely to see success in getting the change you want. As I described, democracies let you pursue many many avenues to force change in the country. Non-democratic systems around at the moment just don't have that option.

Maybe, but it hasn't worked out so far.

2) Because what makes you think a collapse will work out for you? The history books are full of all kinds of collapses. Some of them worked out well, in the long run. Some of them created crueller, more vicious tyrants than the last. Most landed somewhere in the middle. Nearly all were brutish, horrid affairs with mass destruction and death. Is that what you want? Is that something that will work out for you?

I don't need a guarantee that a collapse will work out for me. If such a collapse has a five percent chance of a successful outcome, and a ninety-five percent chance of my death or criminality, it still poses an infinitely greater chance of success than the present system does.

3) Because you are not undermining the democracy by simply not voting. Ironically, apart from violence, democracies freely give their citizens the tools they'd use to actually undermine and destroy the very system. Protests, persuasion, free assembly, a right to privacy- sometimes even a straight up right to own firearms- these are the things that can change history. Hell, more than one democracy right now has elected straight up leaders who are contemptuous of the very democracy that got them in power. Are you using them though? Doesn't look like it.

Of course not, but I do vote, and I also engage in anti-democratic activism.

[Chan Island]

"I don't see why those norms should be anything that concern me"
Because violating socio-political norms and attempting to undermine the political foundation of our society for your own personal benefit is pretty much recognized by everyone to be wrong. Violating socio-politcical norms can have various penalties, ranging from the informal ("Hey everyone, American Legionaries hates democracy!") to the formal (say, arrest, hypothetically, depending on how exactly you intend to undermine the system). It's pretty basic sociology, and also common sense.

The present socio-political norms are vile and repulsive, so being viewed as wrong by such a system's supporters is hardly a condemnation. And the more formal penalties, as you've put them, seem far more tolerable than the alternative solution offered. So basically you're pointing out that even a failed attempt at toppling this governmental system would result in an outcome preferable to not attempting at all.

So the present socio-political norms are vile and repulsive? Man, wouldn't it be nice if you had some tools freely lying around that you could use to change those horrible norms? Like free speech, to call them out without fear of arrest. Or free assembly, so you could gather your fellow likeminded people to plan on how to change those norms. Or protest, so you could inconvenience those in power and the country, until they change those repulsive norms. Or even put yourself up on the ballot, so you could argue to the public about how terrible those norms are, and why they need to change.

Isn't it fortunate then that democracy has freely given you those very rights? Use them if you feel so strongly about it.

[Alcala-Cordel]

I voted during the CA recall election because I had just turned 18 and I wanted to see what it was like. I probably won't vote again because not voting worries moderates. If I really am wasting something valuable they could always nominate someone worthwhile, if they don't mind they could always stop trying to guilt people into it, and if they call us free-riders they're missing the point.

[Pan-Pacific Unity]

Probably true given the broader picture, but by the same token there isn't exactly a point to not voting either. You can cross your arms and loudly declare that you won't be voting, but the system will simply shrug and move on without you. Might as well make use of the tools provided, ineffectual as they may be.

Yes, that is how democracy works. But why work within a system that ensures I have no expectation of success, when I can instead undermine that system and hopefully cause it's collapse?

At least you are refreshingly honest, if nothing else.

[Chan Island]

There's a couple of really good reasons, actually.

1) Because democracy is the system where you are most likely to see success in getting the change you want. As I described, democracies let you pursue many many avenues to force change in the country. Non-democratic systems around at the moment just don't have that option.

Maybe, but it hasn't worked out so far.

2) Because what makes you think a collapse will work out for you? The history books are full of all kinds of collapses. Some of them worked out well, in the long run. Some of them created crueller, more vicious tyrants than the last. Most landed somewhere in the middle. Nearly all were brutish, horrid affairs with mass destruction and death. Is that what you want? Is that something that will work out for you?

I don't need a guarantee that a collapse will work out for me. If such a collapse has a five percent chance of a successful outcome, and a ninety-five percent chance of my death or criminality, it still poses an infinitely greater chance of success than the present system does.

3) Because you are not undermining the democracy by simply not voting. Ironically, apart from violence, democracies freely give their citizens the tools they'd use to actually undermine and destroy the very system. Protests, persuasion, free assembly, a right to privacy- sometimes even a straight up right to own firearms- these are the things that can change history. Hell, more than one democracy right now has elected straight up leaders who are contemptuous of the very democracy that got them in power. Are you using them though? Doesn't look like it.

Of course not, but I do vote, and I also engage in anti-democratic activism.

1) And maybe it hasn't worked out for you because you are not putting in the sufficient work to get that change, or are going about it in the wrong way. This thread would certainly be evidence of that.

2) A 5%? That's a cute bit of optimism. Maybe try to apply it to changing the way your country's democracy works, that way you could maybe get what you want without the pointless mass death and destruction a collapse would entail.

3) Oh, well now the tune has now changed! Good on you then for using the tools at your disposal to try and see the political outcomes you want.

If I may pray ask, what alternative to democracy is it exactly that you seek?

[Chan Island]

I voted during the CA recall election because I had just turned 18 and I wanted to see what it was like. I probably won't vote again because not voting worries moderates. If I really am wasting something valuable they could always nominate someone worthwhile, if they don't mind they could always stop trying to guilt people into it, and if they call us free-riders they're missing the point.

And I'm sure that California will continue to decide what "someone worthwhile" is for you as long as you don't participate.

[American Legionaries]

Maybe, but it hasn't worked out so far.



I don't need a guarantee that a collapse will work out for me. If such a collapse has a five percent chance of a successful outcome, and a ninety-five percent chance of my death or criminality, it still poses an infinitely greater chance of success than the present system does.



Of course not, but I do vote, and I also engage in anti-democratic activism.

1) And maybe it hasn't worked out for you because you are not putting in the sufficient work to get that change, or are going about it in the wrong way. This thread would certainly be evidence of that.

2) A 5%? That's a cute bit of optimism. Maybe try to apply it to changing the way your country's democracy works, that way you could maybe get what you want without the pointless mass death and destruction a collapse would entail.

3) Oh, well now the tune has now changed! Good on you then for using the tools at your disposal to try and see the political outcomes you want.

If I may pray ask, what alternative to democracy is it exactly that you seek?

I don't see what evidence you've gathered, other than that my political agenda isn't currently being enacted.

Optimistic, perhaps, but I see no reason why it's not worth a shot. After all any chance is better than no chance.

What tune is that?

[Alcala-Cordel]

I voted during the CA recall election because I had just turned 18 and I wanted to see what it was like. I probably won't vote again because not voting worries moderates. If I really am wasting something valuable they could always nominate someone worthwhile, if they don't mind they could always stop trying to guilt people into it, and if they call us free-riders they're missing the point.

And I'm sure that California will continue to decide what "someone worthwhile" is for you as long as you don't participate.

The parties will do that regardless, just like what happens in congressional and presidential elections.

[Chan Island]

And I'm sure that California will continue to decide what "someone worthwhile" is for you as long as you don't participate.

The parties will do that regardless, just like what happens in congressional and presidential elections.

Then join a political party and influence who gets nominated yourself. 2 of my local councillors are friends of mine in part because I did just that- nothing stopping you from doing the same. As I've said before on this thread, democracies give you the tools to change things, just one of them being voting. You're welcome to use them.

1) And maybe it hasn't worked out for you because you are not putting in the sufficient work to get that change, or are going about it in the wrong way. This thread would certainly be evidence of that.

2) A 5%? That's a cute bit of optimism. Maybe try to apply it to changing the way your country's democracy works, that way you could maybe get what you want without the pointless mass death and destruction a collapse would entail.

3) Oh, well now the tune has now changed! Good on you then for using the tools at your disposal to try and see the political outcomes you want.

If I may pray ask, what alternative to democracy is it exactly that you seek?

I don't see what evidence you've gathered, other than that my political agenda isn't currently being enacted.

Optimistic, perhaps, but I see no reason why it's not worth a shot. After all any chance is better than no chance.

What tune is that?

1) I've gathered evidence that you started a thread on NSG complaining about voting being useless because a privileged cognitive majority is defining the universal good. That your vote might as well go into the bin, and then concluding that that is why you don't vote. Seems like strong evidence to me that you aren't bothering to put in the hard work required to change peoples' minds.

2) The death and destruction that tends to accompany collapses would normally be seen as a very strong reason not to pursue such a course. Exactly what political agenda is so precious that it needs such a drastic thing, exactly?

3) The first tune you had was that you don't vote because you think that voting is useless. Now you're telling me that you actually do vote. Those are directly contradictory claims.

[The Holy Therns]

Not with that attitude, no.

[American Legionaries]

The parties will do that regardless, just like what happens in congressional and presidential elections.

Then join a political party and influence who gets nominated yourself. 2 of my local councillors are friends of mine in part because I did just that- nothing stopping you from doing the same. As I've said before on this thread, democracies give you the tools to change things, just one of them being voting. You're welcome to use them.

I don't see what evidence you've gathered, other than that my political agenda isn't currently being enacted.

Optimistic, perhaps, but I see no reason why it's not worth a shot. After all any chance is better than no chance.

What tune is that?

1) I've gathered evidence that you started a thread on NSG complaining about voting being useless because a privileged cognitive majority is defining the universal good. That your vote might as well go into the bin, and then concluding that that is why you don't vote. Seems like strong evidence to me that you aren't bothering to put in the hard work required to change peoples' minds.

2) The death and destruction that tends to accompany collapses would normally be seen as a very strong reason not to pursue such a course. Exactly what political agenda is so precious that it needs such a drastic thing, exactly?

3) The first tune you had was that you don't vote because you think that voting is useless. Now you're telling me that you actually do vote. Those are directly contradictory claims.

You may want to double check this conclusion before presenting it as "evidence"

Normalcy is irrelevant. And, judging by the number of wars that humanity has engaged in I question even the claim that aversion to war is "normal".

I stated that voting doesn't get me what I want. It would seem to follow from this claim that I do vote, or else how would I know it isn't working?

[Emotional Support Crocodile]

Your vote matters exactly as much as everyone else's. If you think your vote should count for more or you want to ignore everyone else's opinion and impose what you want, sounds more than a little narcissistic.

[Heloin]

Everything you support is terrible so good honestly.

[Alcala-Cordel]

Your vote matters exactly as much as everyone else's. If you think your vote should count for more or you want to ignore everyone else's opinion and impose what you want, sounds more than a little narcissistic.

And nobody's vote matters very much when the candidates and policies people vote for are all chosen by corporations through political parties.

In the US we also have gerrymandering, the Electoral College, and the Senate to make things unequal.

The parties will do that regardless, just like what happens in congressional and presidential elections.

Then join a political party and influence who gets nominated yourself. 2 of my local councillors are friends of mine in part because I did just that- nothing stopping you from doing the same. As I've said before on this thread, democracies give you the tools to change things, just one of them being voting. You're welcome to use them.

You sound like San Lumen.

No political party of any significance is going to listen to a communist, and I don't have the money to make them do what I say. I can do some stuff to make a political impact, but voting and partisanship don't work.

[Crimson Tree]

I will botch every vote because every political party in the end is full of scumbags

[El Lazaro]

Ok? If you really want some sort of anarcho-Nazi that represents your views, only participating in the political process once a year isn’t going to get it done. It’s not the system’s job to read everyone’s mind and randomly appoint politicians that they didn’t ask for.

[United Eastern Vodia]

Yea I despise the whole two sided American democracy thing and have no plans on voting, I can't understand why people hold onto this as some sort of unsurpassed moral standard for the world. In recent years I've come to despise democracy after I've seen how truly stupid and self destructive the average voter is, I'd much prefer autocracy at this point.