The Problem with Andrew Tate (and Incel Radicalization)

[Kyraat]

Well he’s trying to say good things but everyone wants to silence him before he turns the good people against the bad people and he wasnt

brainwashing people

and if you don’t agree with me feel free to say it but you can’t change my mind

[Kyraat]

Well he’s trying to say good things but everyone wants to silence him before he turns the good people against the bad people and he wasnt

brainwashing people

and if you don’t agree with me feel free to say it but you can’t change my mind

[Queen Yuno]

Is Andrew Tate even still platformed anywhere?

As of recently, probably not, but there's going to be plenty of Andrew Tate copies, and there were many prior to Andrew Tate. As well as plenty of Reposts.

Either way, he's just a symptom of the manosphere. This shit was happening to kids/guys in their 20s even before Andrew Tate went viral: https://www.internetmatters.org/hub/new ... a-concern/

What is the manosphere?
The manosphere is a network of online men’s communities who promote anti-feminist and sexist beliefs blaming women and feminists for all sorts of problems in society. Many of these communities encourage resentment, or even hatred, towards women and girls. There are four main groups:

Men’s rights activists (MRAs) advocate political changes that will benefit men. However, much of their activism consists of harassment and abuse towards feminists and other female public figures.
Men going their own way (MGTOW) argue that women are so toxic that men should avoid them altogether. Some MGTOW will date women but avoid anything serious like getting married, while others won’t even be friends with women.
Pick-up artists (PUAs) teach men seduction strategies so that they can be more successful in attracting women. Many of these techniques involve mistreating women, such as insulting them (“negging”) or disregarding consent.
Involuntary celibates (incels) believe they are entitled to a relationship with a woman, but are incapable of finding a partner. Multiple acts of extreme violence and even murder have been attributed to this group.
How are young people influenced?
A 2020 HOPE not hate report demonstrated how the manosphere influences young people’s beliefs about feminism; boys are repeating manosphere talking points in school and even harassing female teachers. The report found that 50% of young men aged 16-24 believe feminism makes it more difficult for men to succeed. Owen Jones, head of education and training at HOPE not hate, says that gender equality is the most difficult subject to teach. Many students don’t believe sexism is a problem and, when teaching the subject, there “is an aggressive backlash from male students, who not only deny the issues, but try to silence any notion of female empowerment or critique of male culture.” This can make it difficult to have productive conversations about important issues like sexism or gender stereotypes in the classroom.

How do young people find the manosphere?
Many manosphere groups host their own websites and have seen increasing traffic with some seeing growth from thousands to millions of users. However, these groups can also be found on popular social media platforms such as Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. Reddit in particular is home to many manosphere communities, although the most popular MGTOW and incel subreddits have recently been banned. Young people may also find the manosphere via YouTube, as the ‘watch next’ algorithm has been known to recommend increasingly sexist and anti-feminist content in order to keep users engaged. TikTok may be another avenue, as the MGTOW and pick-up artist communities in particular are becoming more prevalent there.

What language should I look out for?
There are several words and phrases which suggest that someone is familiar with the manosphere, such as:

Red pill: learning the ‘truth’ about female nature and that feminism is about oppressing men
Blue pill: not having taken the red pill and so living in blissful ignorance
Alpha male/Chad: an attractive, successful man desired by all women
Beta male/Cuck: an average man who has not yet taken the red pill and is inferior to the alpha male
Femoid/foid: ‘female humanoid’, mostly used by incels
Gynocentrism: the theory that society revolves around and is dominated by women
However, not everyone uses this sort of language. It is also important to look out for generalising statements made about women and men, such as making claims about how all women act or talking about men and women as if they are two different species.

Inappropriate content advice & support
How can we make young people less perceptible to these harms?
A lot of manosphere beliefs follow mainstream thoughts about gender and sexuality. Many teenage boys feel ashamed about not having a girlfriend but this does not necessarily mean they will identify as an incel. Therefore, it is important to have early conversations about healthy relationships and gender relations so that young people do not get sucked into the black-and-white and often defeatist thinking of the manosphere. Tools like The Online Together Project are designed to help start these conversations. Constructive support with difficult feelings around girls, sexuality and masculinity is also essential.

[Queen Yuno]

As an incel, I can confirm we do NOT asociate with Tate. The redpill crowd is just almost as bad as the bluepill (or, lord forgive me for saying this name, IncelTear's). Do not make us guilty of everything bad that happens to women, if we did the same we would be seen as absolute lunatics by even our redpilled comrades.

There is no such thing as an incel. As Jordan Peterson said, if all the women are rejecting them, it’s not the fault of the women. Incels basically think they have a entitlement to relationships without putting the effort necessary that is required. If they just want sex and no relationship, they can do that but they are just too shallow. They think that they’re entitled to more or less a person that is a nine or ten on the physical attractiveness scale

I blame “everyone gets a trophy“ culture that most incels grew up in and having unfiltered access to hard-core pornography. They’re also can be untreated mental illness, and surrounding themselves in a community that embraces and reinforces the victimhood complex that incels have.

That raises a VERY good point! Talked to a very good male friend ( an American college student ) on discord, censored his name, mid-20s. He self-identified as an incel until I told him that he's not an incel just because he can't get girls.

Guy — 01/01/2022
Akito is fucking evil everything he does is for his own personal gain or anything that would harm a woman
Anna — 01/01/2022
Oof he's straight up an incel
Guy — 01/01/2022
Just like me fr
Anna — 01/01/2022
not like you
Incels are mass shooters
Guy — 01/01/2022
Involuntary celibate
Guy — 01/01/2022
Sorry
Anna — 01/01/2022
The term isn't used for that anymore
The term incel refers to mentally ill misogynists
Guy — 01/01/2022
Well Akito definitely is not a virgin
Anna — 01/01/2022
Just as a fyi, the literal definition isn't used anymore by anyone
But to refer to a specific group of misogynists
Guy — 01/01/2022
I'm not a misogynistic person
Anna — 01/01/2022
Since there's a lot of mass shooters who shoot up a school because they got rejected by some girl they asked out
It refers to those
Guy — 01/01/2022
Damn that's bad
Anna — 01/01/2022
And the Atlanta shooter
Porn addict incel
Guy — 01/01/2022
Well idk if I would blame porn specifically but I wouldn't be surprised if he watched it a lot
Anna — 01/01/2022
The chief cop got heat for saying "he was having a bad day"
Guy — 01/01/2022
White people get off too easy
I remember there was a shooting threat at my school but I didn't care and went anyway
Like half the school was empty
Anna — 01/01/2022
He cited that porn watching made him objectify women and see them as "temptations." He wanted to get rid of his porn addiction, so in order to do that, he blamed women for porn and saw them as temptresses, and drove to shoot them
Guy — 01/01/2022
That's crazy
Is that partially why you stopped watching it
Anna — 01/01/2022
Since he was about to get kicked out of the house because he spent all day everyday watching porn, his family didn't like that
Guy — 01/01/2022
If my mom saw me watching porn I'd get my ass beat
I don't really watch it but hypothetically

[T Rex Horde]

I'm not really sure what you expect when you leave an entire generation of men without realistic prospects of stable careers, marriage, etc. Be happy they're listening to Andrew Tate for now instead of taking to the streets, because that's liable to happen as societal decay continues. Only so much bread and circus left.

[Saiwania]

Plenty of people who're Incels aren't necessarily violent, criminal, or antisocial in terms of behaviors. There are asocial or autism spectrum people and so on. It is a specific online community, subculture, or identity that you have to identify with if you're really in that camp. People could instead consider themself to be celibate, aromantic, or something else. Just that a relative inability to have sex or navigate romance is a trait that Incels have in common.

[Vassenor]

Well he’s trying to say good things but everyone wants to silence him before he turns the good people against the bad people and he wasnt

brainwashing people

and if you don’t agree with me feel free to say it but you can’t change my mind

What good things is he saying?


And who are we defining as Bad People?

[Northrop]

Plenty of people who're Incels aren't necessarily violent, criminal, or antisocial in terms of behaviors. There are asocial or autism spectrum people and so on. It is a specific online community, subculture, or identity that you have to identify with if you're really in that camp. People could instead consider themself to be celibate, aromantic, or something else. Just that a relative inability to have sex or navigate romance is a trait that Incels have in common.

Many autistic guys just need something constructive to put their time and energy into.

I'm lucky that my "things" are mechanical activities, my job in construction, and fitness.

Sadly, a lot of them take the easy route of sitting in their bedrooms, ruminating about how they've been ostracized and blaming it on somebody.

[Vivolkha]

Even in an anti-capitalist society, I still think Andrew Tate wannabes would pop up all over the place. Also, without legitimizing their ideas, maybe we should look into why these "incels" are so angry (pre-radicalization). I believe there's definitely a genuine social issue here, that can be examined without being obfuscated by the mysogynistic terrorists it spawned.

They’re angry because they exist at the crossroads between the old ideas that men are defined by their sexual conquests (thus leaving them dealing with feelings of inadequacy) and a belief that they are entitled to the use of womens’ bodies and reacting with anger at being denied that when a woman has the nerve to say no.

Even in an anti-capitalist society, I still think Andrew Tate wannabes would pop up all over the place. Also, without legitimizing their ideas, maybe we should look into why these "incels" are so angry (pre-radicalization). I believe there's definitely a genuine social issue here, that can be examined without being obfuscated by the mysogynistic terrorists it spawned.

they're angry because they believe that they should - or deserve - to have a partner, which is fostered in part by the societal expectation that one find a partner and make a family. I don't think it's very complex.

My take on this is that it is partly the result of several different societal trends. Rising incelibacy rates (for both men and women) and increased incidence of mental illnesses (again, for both men and women) provide the breeding ground for incels if you combine it with a worldwide history of discrimination and violence against women, and especially in the current context of a widespread backlash against women's rights (see China, Hungary, Turkey, Russia, Bulgaria, and even the US for some examples). On top of it add gender stereotypes and perceived roles; many incels also seem to have some very outdated ideas on marriage and relationships. It is indeed quite a complex issue, in my opinion.

It's easy to think of incels as just pathetic losers, and I myself unashamedly call them terrorists (and will continue to do so), but the thought that my difficulties in dating and mental health issues could've easily pushed me into that path had someone been there to radicalize me scares me. Because I know that at some point I was starting to be close to becoming one of them, and because I want to take pride in the fact that I know better.

I wonder how much improving access to mental health services would improve the situation. Therapy sure does seem like the solution on paper, and may prevent radicalization, but full-blown incels are beyond therapy. Therapy only works if you consent to it, something I doubt many incels would do.

[Juristonia]

Is Andrew Tate even still platformed anywhere?

Apparently he's on rumble now.
Which rumble seems very happy about.

[Kerwa]

Plot twist:

He deplatformed himself for publicity. And the grift is working.

I’m honestly thinking that since I have a better midlantic and a full head of hair - unlike baldy - I am going to start a YouTube channel and tell idiots to give me all their money. And obey me and shit.

I’ll just tell them to “unleash their titan” or some bullshit. What could go wrong? (Other than being swatted),

[Saiwania]

I’m honestly thinking that since I have a better midlantic and a full head of hair - unlike baldy - I am going to start a YouTube channel and tell idiots to give me all their money. And obey me and shit. I’ll just tell them to “unleash their titan” or some bullshit. What could go wrong?

Wire fraud, serious crime with serious time. Up to 20 years. You can't make grand promises but "take the money and run" on anything. Its okay perhaps to have genuinely tried but failed, but it is different from having tricked people out of money for your benefit from the get go. Refunding or making it right, an absolute must.

[Ifreann]

Can someone fill me in on what exactly this guy's videos are?

Life advice videos about abusing women for fun and profit.

---

As an incel, I can confirm we do NOT asociate with Tate. The redpill crowd is just almost as bad as the bluepill (or, lord forgive me for saying this name, IncelTear's). Do not make us guilty of everything bad that happens to women, if we did the same we would be seen as absolute lunatics by even our redpilled comrades.

There is no such thing as an incel. As Jordan Peterson said...

Ahaha, of course you're a Peterson fan. Just be careful about going on the meat and benzos diet.

[Forsher]

Is Andrew Tate even still platformed anywhere?

Apparently he's on rumble now.
Which rumble seems very happy about.

Given that I don't know what Rumble is, they should be.

One Wikipedia search later and I can't see why they wouldn't be.

[Blaenavon]

Angry misogynists like Andrew Tate are a danger. They make the internet toxic, and if you listen to anyone for long enough without some other input you'll begin to attenuate some of that person's views. Since he advocated violence at times (from what I understand) I'm not sorry he got banned. Anyway, surely private social media platforms can set any policies they like as to what content they allow and what they don't. If YouTube won't allow nudity or will put certain restrictions on bad language and so on they don't have to allow on Andrew Tate spouting possibly more harmful rhetoric. As long as state actors aren't involved it's not a free speech issue as far as I'm concerned and I'm sure with his following Tate will find plenty of platforms for himself.

[Page]

Plenty of people who're Incels aren't necessarily violent, criminal, or antisocial in terms of behaviors. There are asocial or autism spectrum people and so on. It is a specific online community, subculture, or identity that you have to identify with if you're really in that camp. People could instead consider themself to be celibate, aromantic, or something else. Just that a relative inability to have sex or navigate romance is a trait that Incels have in common.

There is nothing wrong with being involuntarily celebite. But there is a lot wrong with the incel subculture. It's like being white vs. being a nazi.

[Ostroeuropa]

Actively suppress the reformists and then get panicked over the revolutionaries. Tale as oolldd as tiiime...

Tate and other radicals in the manosphere are the inevitable consequence of opposition to the mens rights movement. Each time you ignore the MLK, you grow Malcolm X's power. The reason men are radicalizing is because, like most oppressors, gynocentrists are genuinely incapable of seeing the difference and see the radicalization as spontaneous and unrelated to their excesses. Think about basically every movement in history and you'll see this trend.

If you reject equality, you leave only domination or submission as options. People choose domination increasingly over time. This is neither a shock nor particularly blameworthy frankly. I don't actually care all that much if we see a massive shift towards male supremacy in the coming decades, even though I will continue to advocate for equality because I view that dominance pendulum as unstable for mens interests. The only relevant question to me is whether women are even capable of egalitarian treatment of others as a group or if their propensity towards in-group bias is innate, and if so, then male supremacy must be enforced and emphasized to each subsequent generation.

If they are capable of it, then they really have no excuse by this point. The willful hermeneutical ignorance they have engaged in en masse is to blame for the rise of male radicalization.


Can anybody explain to me why women, and women alone, in all of human history should be immune to the consequences of oppressing others and not moderating their behavior when there is a backlash? Seems fairly sexist to suggest they should be to me. A sensible oppressor class usually takes this opportunity to strike bargains with the moderate faction to try and find the sweet spot in terms of maintaining their advantage.

Oppressor: "We demand 100% bullshit."

Moderates: "We demand 0% bullshit."

Oppressor: "You're an extremist and a threat to society and we're going to suppress you."

Ex-Moderate Radical: "I demand 100% bullshit, but pointed in the other direction."

---- You Are Here.

Option A: "You're all extremists and threats to- oh my god is that a guillotine?"

Option B: "Hey. Hey other moderate, how about 50% bullshit? It's progress right?".

-----

The people still invested in denial of reality and willful hermeneutical ignorance that broader are driving us towards outcome A. Tate and the rise of radical figures like him is a symptom of this. As i've said, i'm past caring at this point. I know my function in the wider super-structure of the manosphere.

Publicly advocate equality and then either get it, or get shot down and act as a functional recruiter for radicals.

[Western Theram]

Actively suppress the reformists and then get panicked over the revolutionaries. Tale as oolldd as tiiime...

Tate and other radicals in the manosphere are the inevitable consequence of opposition to the mens rights movement. Each time you ignore the MLK, you grow Malcolm X's power. The reason men are radicalizing is because, like most oppressors, gynocentrists are genuinely incapable of seeing the difference and see the radicalization as spontaneous and unrelated to their excesses. Think about basically every movement in history and you'll see this trend.

If you reject equality, you leave only domination or submission as options. People choose domination increasingly over time. This is neither a shock nor particularly blameworthy frankly. I don't actually care all that much if we see a massive shift towards male supremacy in the coming decades, even though I will continue to advocate for equality because I view that dominance pendulum as unstable for mens interests. The only relevant question to me is whether women are even capable of egalitarian treatment of others as a group or if their propensity towards in-group bias is innate, and if so, then male supremacy must be enforced and emphasized to each subsequent generation.

If they are capable of it, then they really have no excuse by this point. The willful hermeneutical ignorance they have engaged in en masse is to blame for the rise of male radicalization.


Can anybody explain to me why women, and women alone, in all of human history should be immune to the consequences of oppressing others and not moderating their behavior when there is a backlash?

They aren’t. You do see a double standard in how men treat other men who are abused by women though. It’s really more of a problem with toxic masculinity than anything.
And comparing a r*pist to MLK or Malcolm X is laughable.

[Vassenor]

Actively suppress the reformists and then get panicked over the revolutionaries. Tale as oolldd as tiiime...

Tate and other radicals in the manosphere are the inevitable consequence of opposition to the mens rights movement. Each time you ignore the MLK, you grow Malcolm X's power. The reason men are radicalizing is because, like most oppressors, gynocentrists are genuinely incapable of seeing the difference and see the radicalization as spontaneous and unrelated to their excesses. Think about basically every movement in history and you'll see this trend.

If you reject equality, you leave only domination or submission as options. People choose domination increasingly over time. This is neither a shock nor particularly blameworthy frankly. I don't actually care all that much if we see a massive shift towards male supremacy in the coming decades, even though I will continue to advocate for equality because I view that dominance pendulum as unstable for mens interests. The only relevant question to me is whether women are even capable of egalitarian treatment of others as a group or if their propensity towards in-group bias is innate, and if so, then male supremacy must be enforced and emphasized to each subsequent generation.

If they are capable of it, then they really have no excuse by this point. The willful hermeneutical ignorance they have engaged in en masse is to blame for the rise of male radicalization.


Can anybody explain to me why women, and women alone, in all of human history should be immune to the consequences of oppressing others and not moderating their behavior when there is a backlash?

They aren’t. You do see a double standard in how men treat other men who are abused by women though. It’s really more of a problem with toxic masculinity than anything.
And comparing a r*pist to MLK or Malcolm X is laughable.

But he's standing up for the oppressed men against the evils of women being equal to men so he must be the same as MLK somehow.

[Ostroeuropa]

They aren’t. You do see a double standard in how men treat other men who are abused by women though. It’s really more of a problem with toxic masculinity than anything.
And comparing a r*pist to MLK or Malcolm X is laughable.

What evidence do you have that it's men who have the double standard here? Do you have any studies on the matter, or just ideological assertions? Or how about actual evidence that it's a problem of "Toxic Masculinity" (Which is an abusive and misandrist term, and a good example of why men are turning against feminism and more broadly, women.)? Or more ideological assertions again?

But he's standing up for the oppressed men against the evils of women being equal to men so he must be the same as MLK somehow.

I'd say i'm within his faction. If I had to pick an MLK figure for men it would probably be Straughan or Farrell.

[Western Theram]

They aren’t. You do see a double standard in how men treat other men who are abused by women though. It’s really more of a problem with toxic masculinity than anything.
And comparing a r*pist to MLK or Malcolm X is laughable.

What evidence do you have that it's men who have the double standard here? Do you have any studies on the matter, or just ideological assertions? Or how about actual evidence that it's a problem of "Toxic Masculinity" (Which is an abusive and misandrist term, and a good example of why men are turning against feminism and more broadly, women.)? Or more ideological assertions again?

But he's standing up for the oppressed men against the evils of women being equal to men so he must be the same as MLK somehow.

I'd say i'm within his faction. If I had to pick an MLK figure for men it would probably be Straughan or Farrell.

Literally look at videos of social experiments about domestic abuse, everytime a man was the oppressor other men stood up for the women, when it was the other way around the men laughed and even started recording on their phones. It’s not misanderist, misanderist would be saying “ALL MEN ARE SEXIST” non-toxic men know the term doesn’t apply to them

[Ostroeuropa]

Literally look at videos of social experiments about domestic abuse, everytime a man was the oppressor other men stood up for the women, when it was the other way around the men laughed and even started recording on their phones. It’s not misanderist, misanderist would be saying “ALL MEN ARE SEXIST” non-toxic men know the term doesn’t apply to them

I've seen videos of social experiments about domestic abuse, and both men and women are hostile to male victims, not just men. I've also seen plenty of evidence that women in particular are worse at this, as well as some evidence saying they're about the same.

And yes, "Toxic masculinity" is a misandrist term for a straightforward reason; a supermajority of men reject the term as degrading and offensive, and it is about the description of their own experiences. A refusal to allow them to be the authors of their own experience and to define it because it would be inconvenient for women is misandry, plainly and simply. It invalidates their description of their own experiences in favor of prioritizing womens describing womens perception of mens experiences as more valid. It doesn't matter what rationalizations those people throw out in face of that plain and simple dynamic of gynocentrism.

It is an example of the dehumanization inherent to feminism in the modern era which has provoked this backlash. When a feminist says "Toxic masculinity" and a supermajority of men reply "That is misandrist" and the feminist goes on to assert her own perspective while ignoring mens input, that is willful hermeneutical ignorance.

"Willful hermeneutical ignorance develops from cognitive missteps that lead to the dismissal or overlooking of epistemic resources."

"occurs when dominantly situated. knowers refuse to acknowledge epistemic took developed from the experienced world of. those situated marginally."

Etc.

It's a means by which those harming others can delude themselves into continuing to do it by ignoring testimony that the thing they are doing is bad and refusing to draw on epistemic resources that would inform them as such.

[Vassenor]

Oh wait, it's not the evil of women being equal to men. It's the evil of men facing consequences for their actions.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

As an incel, I can confirm we do NOT asociate with Tate. The redpill crowd is just almost as bad as the bluepill (or, lord forgive me for saying this name, IncelTear's). Do not make us guilty of everything bad that happens to women, if we did the same we would be seen as absolute lunatics by even our redpilled comrades.

There is no such thing as an incel. As Jordan Peterson said,

Jordan Peterson is an overrated pseudoscientist who pretends to be an expert on things he's not for fame. he's a psychologist. and his tips aren't very interesting, by the way:

1. "Stand up straight with your shoulders back."
2. "Treat yourself like you are someone you are responsible for helping."
3. "Make friends with people who want the best for you."
4. "Compare yourself to who you were yesterday, not to who someone else is today."
5. "Do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them."
6. "Set your house in perfect order before you criticize the world."
7. "Pursue what is meaningful (not what is expedient)."
8. "Tell the truth – or, at least, don't lie."
9. "Assume that the person you are listening to might know something you don't."
10. "Be precise in your speech."
11. "Do not bother children when they are skateboarding."
12. "Pet a cat when you encounter one on the street."

only three of these are weird.

[Ostroeuropa]

There is no such thing as an incel. As Jordan Peterson said,

Jordan Peterson is an overrated pseudoscientist who pretends to be an expert on things he's not for fame. he's a psychologist. and his tips aren't very interesting, by the way:

1. "Stand up straight with your shoulders back."
2. "Treat yourself like you are someone you are responsible for helping."
3. "Make friends with people who want the best for you."
4. "Compare yourself to who you were yesterday, not to who someone else is today."
5. "Do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them."
6. "Set your house in perfect order before you criticize the world."
7. "Pursue what is meaningful (not what is expedient)."
8. "Tell the truth – or, at least, don't lie."
9. "Assume that the person you are listening to might know something you don't."
10. "Be precise in your speech."
11. "Do not bother children when they are skateboarding."
12. "Pet a cat when you encounter one on the street."

only three of these are weird.

I think the formulation of number 2 is succinct and is something people need to hear more often. That said, I am not much of a fan of his work beyond his willingness to provide alternative views to gynocentrism.