by Nevertopia » Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:42 am
So the CCP won't let me be or let me be me so let me see, they tried to shut me down on CBC but it feels so empty without me.
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by American Legionaries » Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:45 am
Nevertopia wrote:Long story short I was drafting an entry about Tanks on my factbook and the I couldn't overlook the topic of how Tanks are getting hard-countered in Russia by foot soldiers with rocket launchers. Now that tank warfare has sort of had this massive shift where a single soldier could potentially take one of these things out, what does the future of tanks look like?
If you haven't heard, due to developments in anti-tank weaponry for ground troops, a single soldier can take out a Tank with The Javelin rocket launcher. The Javelin does this by targeting the top hatch of a tank, shooting straight up in the air, then down on top of their targets, piercing through the weakest part of the tank. Think of it as a sniper rifle that can automatically headshot you in a videogame.
Looking through various articles online, there's been a big push to change the "tank paradigm" by military researchers from "More armor, more protection" to " Don't be detected and don't be engageable". A push to making them run cooler so they're harder to detect on infrared, practical camouflage, masking their heat signatures to look like civilian vehicles, composite/explosive armor, support drones, and the list goes on. But its one thing to say that, and another to carry it out.
How exactly do Tanks need to change so that they are viable frontline, heavily armored vehicles? I personally don't see the need for tanks going away. There will always be a need for ground forces to break through enemy frontlines, and thats what the tank is good for. But if armor-piercing and targeting mobile weapons platforms like the Javelin rocket launcher are making their armor a non-issue, where do they go from here?
by Emotional Support Crocodile » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:08 am
by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:11 am
by Washington Resistance Army » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:22 am
by Northern Avers of Maine » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:26 am
Nevertopia wrote:Long story short I was drafting an entry about Tanks on my factbook and the I couldn't overlook the topic of how Tanks are getting hard-countered in Russia by foot soldiers with rocket launchers. Now that tank warfare has sort of had this massive shift where a single soldier could potentially take one of these things out, what does the future of tanks look like?
If you haven't heard, due to developments in anti-tank weaponry for ground troops, a single soldier can take out a Tank with The Javelin rocket launcher. The Javelin does this by targeting the top hatch of a tank, shooting straight up in the air, then down on top of their targets, piercing through the weakest part of the tank. Think of it as a sniper rifle that can automatically headshot you in a videogame.
Looking through various articles online, there's been a big push to change the "tank paradigm" by military researchers from "More armor, more protection" to " Don't be detected and don't be engageable". A push to making them run cooler so they're harder to detect on infrared, practical camouflage, masking their heat signatures to look like civilian vehicles, composite/explosive armor, support drones, and the list goes on. But its one thing to say that, and another to carry it out.
How exactly do Tanks need to change so that they are viable frontline, heavily armored vehicles? I personally don't see the need for tanks going away. There will always be a need for ground forces to break through enemy frontlines, and thats what the tank is good for. But if armor-piercing and targeting mobile weapons platforms like the Javelin rocket launcher are making their armor a non-issue, where do they go from here?
by The Order of Makai » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:36 am
Nevertopia wrote:Long story short I was drafting an entry about Tanks on my factbook and the I couldn't overlook the topic of how Tanks are getting hard-countered in Russia by foot soldiers with rocket launchers. Now that tank warfare has sort of had this massive shift where a single soldier could potentially take one of these things out, what does the future of tanks look like?
If you haven't heard, due to developments in anti-tank weaponry for ground troops, a single soldier can take out a Tank with The Javelin rocket launcher. The Javelin does this by targeting the top hatch of a tank, shooting straight up in the air, then down on top of their targets, piercing through the weakest part of the tank. Think of it as a sniper rifle that can automatically headshot you in a videogame.
Looking through various articles online, there's been a big push to change the "tank paradigm" by military researchers from "More armor, more protection" to " Don't be detected and don't be engageable". A push to making them run cooler so they're harder to detect on infrared, practical camouflage, masking their heat signatures to look like civilian vehicles, composite/explosive armor, support drones, and the list goes on. But its one thing to say that, and another to carry it out.
How exactly do Tanks need to change so that they are viable frontline, heavily armored vehicles? I personally don't see the need for tanks going away. There will always be a need for ground forces to break through enemy frontlines, and thats what the tank is good for. But if armor-piercing and targeting mobile weapons platforms like the Javelin rocket launcher are making their armor a non-issue, where do they go from here?
by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:40 am
The Order of Makai wrote:Russians failing to deploy their tanks correctly and leaving them unsupported and isolated, which of course permits them to be destroyed by a single man sneak attacking them;
by Infected Mushroom » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:48 am
by Continental Free States » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:52 am
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by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:52 am
Infected Mushroom wrote:Probably obsolete in 10-20 years if not already tbh.
If I can take a shoulder pad ATGM and blow it up
by Emotional Support Crocodile » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:55 am
by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:57 am
Emotional Support Crocodile wrote:The future is cyberwar and drones, not big tin cans with guns.
Dammit now look what you've made me do, I've agreed with Infected Mushroom about something.
by Infected Mushroom » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:59 am
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:Infected Mushroom wrote:Probably obsolete in 10-20 years if not already tbh.
If I can take a shoulder pad ATGM and blow it up
You will be shot in the head.
With a very big bullet. Followed by the rest of the infantry platoon turning you into Swiss cheese.
See how this guy takes an 125 mm HE-Frag to his face?
Yeah you don't want to be that guy.
by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:01 am
Infected Mushroom wrote:It might just create a new status quo favoring defenders (making it near impossible to grab new lands without slogging it with long range).
by Infected Mushroom » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:17 am
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:Infected Mushroom wrote:It might just create a new status quo favoring defenders (making it near impossible to grab new lands without slogging it with long range).
In 1939 and 1940 people thought putting an antitank gun every km would stop the panzer-stuka menace.
They were wrong.
by Emotional Support Crocodile » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:18 am
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:Emotional Support Crocodile wrote:The future is cyberwar and drones, not big tin cans with guns.
Dammit now look what you've made me do, I've agreed with Infected Mushroom about something.
Drones can be shot down, just like any other plane. Which is why Ukraine doesn't want the MQ-1's anymore since Russian air defence is turning Donetsk into a big no fun zone for drones.
by Engadine Mcdonalds 1997 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:22 am
by Antipatros » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:31 am
by Armeattla » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:40 am
Emotional Support Crocodile wrote:Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:Drones can be shot down, just like any other plane. Which is why Ukraine doesn't want the MQ-1's anymore since Russian air defence is turning Donetsk into a big no fun zone for drones.
Thousands upon thousands of small cheap drones, for the cost of a tank, it won't matter. They can just be small flying bombs attacking in swarms.
by Infected Mushroom » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:43 am
Armeattla wrote:Emotional Support Crocodile wrote:
Thousands upon thousands of small cheap drones, for the cost of a tank, it won't matter. They can just be small flying bombs attacking in swarms.
Given that CRAM can shoot down mortar shells, and that CRAM is pobably gonna get integrated into AA or SPAA, drones will be nothing more than another mortar shell to shoot down.
As for Anti Tank weapons- even if they become cheaper and cheaper, they will not outlive the tank.
If one stopped using tanks, the enemy would stop using ATGMs.
Now if the enemy stopped using ATGMs and you suddenly roll up with a tank, you are going to absolutely butcher everyone and anyone.
Equiping every infantry squad with a Javelin is costly, especially since not many of them are going to ever see a tank while slowing down the squad.
If you have too few javelins around a tank can just wreak havoc for a good while before someone who can deal with it arrives - at which points the tank might already be gone.
As for countering ATGMs - a good infantry screen is usuall sufficient, but Active Protection Systems can make short work of any incoming ATGM, top attack or not.
APS in combination with ERA will phase out heavier armour - especially when ERA is finally capable of defeating APDSFS.
by Emotional Support Crocodile » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:47 am
Armeattla wrote:Emotional Support Crocodile wrote:
Thousands upon thousands of small cheap drones, for the cost of a tank, it won't matter. They can just be small flying bombs attacking in swarms.
Given that CRAM can shoot down mortar shells, and that CRAM is pobably gonna get integrated into AA or SPAA, drones will be nothing more than another mortar shell to shoot down.
As for Anti Tank weapons- even if they become cheaper and cheaper, they will not outlive the tank.
If one stopped using tanks, the enemy would stop using ATGMs.
Now if the enemy stopped using ATGMs and you suddenly roll up with a tank, you are going to absolutely butcher everyone and anyone.
Equiping every infantry squad with a Javelin is costly, especially since not many of them are going to ever see a tank while slowing down the squad.
If you have too few javelins around a tank can just wreak havoc for a good while before someone who can deal with it arrives - at which points the tank might already be gone.
As for countering ATGMs - a good infantry screen is usuall sufficient, but Active Protection Systems can make short work of any incoming ATGM, top attack or not.
APS in combination with ERA will phase out heavier armour - especially when ERA is finally capable of defeating APDSFS.
by Armeattla » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:47 am
Infected Mushroom wrote:ATGMs don’t just counter tanks though. They can be used against other ground vehicles too (and for blowing through bunkers and fortifications up close)
by Armeattla » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:51 am
Emotional Support Crocodile wrote:Armeattla wrote:Given that CRAM can shoot down mortar shells, and that CRAM is pobably gonna get integrated into AA or SPAA, drones will be nothing more than another mortar shell to shoot down.
As for Anti Tank weapons- even if they become cheaper and cheaper, they will not outlive the tank.
If one stopped using tanks, the enemy would stop using ATGMs.
Now if the enemy stopped using ATGMs and you suddenly roll up with a tank, you are going to absolutely butcher everyone and anyone.
Equiping every infantry squad with a Javelin is costly, especially since not many of them are going to ever see a tank while slowing down the squad.
If you have too few javelins around a tank can just wreak havoc for a good while before someone who can deal with it arrives - at which points the tank might already be gone.
As for countering ATGMs - a good infantry screen is usuall sufficient, but Active Protection Systems can make short work of any incoming ATGM, top attack or not.
APS in combination with ERA will phase out heavier armour - especially when ERA is finally capable of defeating APDSFS.
Mortar shells follow a nice trajectory and don't come in massive swarms where it is hard to pick a target.
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