Ukrainian War Thread III: The Horrors

[Punished UMN]

I don't donate to dictators, so neither Zelensky nor Putin nor Lukashenko will get a dime of mine.

Zelensky isn't a dictator but go off I guess.

inb4 someone says "but he banned opposition parties", yeah that's kind of normal procedure in a democracy at war when the opposition simps for the invading nation lol

While in the context of the war this is true, it becomes a somewhat weaker argument when viewed in the context of the broader post-Maidan government, which was banning left wing organizations and even symbolism several years before the war, which was widely condemned by international rights organizations as being an effort to delegitimize the political agency of Ukrainians who opposed the Maidan movement.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Switzerland's defense ministry is kicking around the idea of joint training with NATO.

Kind of shocking that Putin has seemingly killed Swiss neutrality.

e: also Azovstal finally surrendered after 82 days. Ukraine is in negotiations to try and get them back home but that is simply astounding that they lasted that long.

[Meadowfields]

I don't donate to dictators, so neither Zelensky nor Putin nor Lukashenko will get a dime of mine.

Zelensky isn't a dictator but go off I guess.

inb4 someone says "but he banned opposition parties", yeah that's kind of normal procedure in a democracy at war when the opposition simps for the invading nation lol

Zelenskyy isn't a dictator, even though he might be corrupt, Putin and Lukashenko are real dictators and maniacs. I just got into an argument with someone on F7 yesterday who said the Ukraine wasn't innocent at all because of the Azov Battalion and Right Sector. Yes, the Azov Battalion exists and contains fascists, but that doesn't mean 100% of the Ukrainian army is Azov/fascist. Apparently, a ultranationalist party (Right Sector) that has 0 seats in the Verkhovna Rada, only 2 out of 158,339 in Regions, and opposes the EU controls all of Ukraine. Believe me, Ukraine isn't exactly innocent, because it's extremely corrupt, of course, but that doesn't justify Russia's invasion, genocide, and blatant violation of human rights.

[Republic of shreyank]

On 27 February the OP said ...

We’re four days into the invasion of Ukraine by Russia and it doesn’t show any signs of stopping, but it certainly shows a few signs of slowing down.

Ukraine was invaded by Russia on February 23, 2022, and Russian forces have pushed into a sizable chunk of Ukrainian territory. Despite Russia’s initial success, Ukraine has proven a tougher nut to crack than expected and is fiercely resisting the Russian invasion, especially in the capital of Kyiv. Stories like the Ghost of Kyiv and legends like the Snake Island Crew have only bolstered Ukrainian resistance.

Ukraine, for their part, has successfully appealed to western nations. Heavy sanctions have been applied to Russia -- threatening Putin's base -- and Ukraine is getting arms and humanitarian support from multiple countries, including Germany, the US, the UK, Turkey, Italy, and Canada, among others. Schisms have erupted in the halls of the Russian elite, with multiple governmental figures and oligarchs condemning Russia's invasion. Despite Russia cracking down on dissent, protests have still erupted across the country in protest towards the war.

Will Ukraine hold? Will Russia take Kyiv? Time will tell…

Ukraine has held. The Russians have not taken Kyiv and they have, indeed, withdrawn from that city, leaving death and destruction in their wake. Other places in Ukraine have not been so lucky (if one may even use that word), places like Kherson and Mariupol. The US and her allies continue to add sanctions. Russia and her allies continue to breathe defiance, at the same time as Moscow speaks of a refocusing of goals on Eastern Ukraine.

Time will tell ...

The previous edition ...

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Kind of shocking that Putin has seemingly killed Swiss neutrality.

Not a surprise. Switzerland and Austria may be next on NATO's docket.

[Deblar]

Switzerland's defense ministry is kicking around the idea of joint training with NATO.

Kind of shocking that Putin has seemingly killed Swiss neutrality.

e: also Azovstal finally surrendered after 82 days. Ukraine is in negotiations to try and get them back home but that is simply astounding that they lasted that long.

If even Switzerland is opposing your imperialist invasion, you know you've fucked up

[Vistulange]

Kind of shocking that Putin has seemingly killed Swiss neutrality.

Not a surprise. Switzerland and Austria may be next on NATO's docket.

I'd be more sceptical of their prospects of NATO membership. For one, well, neither country has expressed any interest in such (as far as I know). Two, unlike Sweden and Finland, who had plausible reasons to be fearful of Russian aggression, Switzerland and Austria don't—they're smack dab in the middle of Europe, and if the Russians are coming for them, then it's probably already the Third World War and they'll have thrown their lot in with one side or another (presumably NATO) by that point.

Furthermore, there would likely be legal complications. That's not to say they're insurmountable blocks. After all, constitutions can be changed. However, constitutions aren't changed easily, either. While Austrian neutrality technically isn't coded in the Austrian State Treaty of 1955 which is Austria's founding document, it's still a part of the Austrian constitution, to my knowledge. I don't know about the Swiss—the modern Swiss state wasn't, in the end, forged out of a post-war settlement between the victorious parties—but I would imagine that it would be more complicated simply due to the very decentralised and direct democratic form of governance. It's called the Swiss Confederation for a reason.

So yeah, they probably won't make any moves like trying to join NATO. If they do, well...Putin, how much further can you possibly fuck up?

[Rusozak]

Kind of shocking that Putin has seemingly killed Swiss neutrality.

Not a surprise. Switzerland and Austria may be next on NATO's docket.

Isn't there some old law enforcing Austrian neutrality?

[Fahran]

While in the context of the war this is true, it becomes a somewhat weaker argument when viewed in the context of the broader post-Maidan government, which was banning left wing organizations and even symbolism several years before the war, which was widely condemned by international rights organizations as being an effort to delegitimize the political agency of Ukrainians who opposed the Maidan movement.

This isn't inaccurate, but it does mischaracterize the broader thrust of Ukrainian decommunization in the aftermath of the Maidan movement. Two political parties were banned in 2015, the Communist Party of Ukraine and the Communist Party of Workers and Peasants. The cited reason behind the revocation of their right to participate in elections was that they were in violation of laws that banned Nazi and Soviet symbols in a country where Nazis and Soviets had historically committed atrocities. Both of the banned parties can also be described as "patriotic" Marxist-Leninist and Russophile political factions, with the Communist Party of Ukraine notably opposing Ukrainian nationalism. It's also begun flirting with Eurasianism of late. In plain terms, they seem to have been banned for many of the same reasons that other "left-wing" parties have been banned - because they're subversive fifth columnists that either knowingly support Russian foreign policy aims or that are useful dupes when it comes to those aims. And, notably, these bans came amid an atmosphere of indirect war with Russia in the Donbass - as recent bans have come amid more direct war with Russia.

[Ifreann]

Been going through that guys twitter and the so called CPI. They're "Patriotic Socialists" as they call themselves. I wonder where I've heard that line before....

Maupin is well known among MLs for being social-chauvinist scum. Please don't take his word to be that of all of us, please!

Distancing yourself from Maupin? You must be a CIA asset.

[Archinstinct]

On an unrelated note, some people not diving into the russia-side of the information war might be surprised to learn that outside of Putin bots, tankies are a large source of support for Putin's war. Then you users who have some loyalty to serbia or hungary to a lesser extent (I don't engage those people, since I can't speak those languages and google translate kind of stinks). But logically, since Russia is a conservative country, you'd expect more conservative users on social media to support Russia. Nope, in mother Russia, communism supports conservatism.. somehow.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

I'd be more sceptical of their prospects of NATO membership.

It might depend, for both countries, on the extent of Russian adventurism.

[Independent Cossack Ukraine]

Not a surprise. Switzerland and Austria may be next on NATO's docket.

Isn't there some old law enforcing Austrian neutrality?

Austria declared Neutrality by law after WWII. Theoretically, it could be undone in extreme circumstances, kind of like Article 9 of Japan's constitution.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Distancing yourself from Maupin? You must be a CIA asset.

Maupin is a Stalinist, a Putinist, and what he calls a patriotic socialist. He has a nightly live show on YouTube. Sometimes I watch it. (Know thine enemy.)

[Fahran]

You mean Turkic peoples, not Turks. I'd say there's a bit of a difference.

Of course!

I do have some funny anecdotes from Pan-Turanists, though not the vehement kind, but I do not think we should equate Kazakhs and Uzbeks and Turks.

[Vistulange]

You mean Turkic peoples, not Turks. I'd say there's a bit of a difference.

Of course!

I do have some funny anecdotes from Pan-Turanists, though not the vehement kind, but I do not think we should equate Kazakhs and Uzbeks and Turks.

I think I would be thrilled to hear about those folks! I disagree with them in the strongest manner possible in civilised society, but they do tend to have...bizarre political views, if I'm being polite!

But yeah, we're on the same page.

[Punished UMN]

While in the context of the war this is true, it becomes a somewhat weaker argument when viewed in the context of the broader post-Maidan government, which was banning left wing organizations and even symbolism several years before the war, which was widely condemned by international rights organizations as being an effort to delegitimize the political agency of Ukrainians who opposed the Maidan movement.

This isn't inaccurate, but it does mischaracterize the broader thrust of Ukrainian decommunization in the aftermath of the Maidan movement. Two political parties were banned in 2015, the Communist Party of Ukraine and the Communist Party of Workers and Peasants. The cited reason behind the revocation of their right to participate in elections was that they were in violation of laws that banned Nazi and Soviet symbols in a country where Nazis and Soviets had historically committed atrocities. Both of the banned parties can also be described as "patriotic" Marxist-Leninist and Russophile political factions, with the Communist Party of Ukraine notably opposing Ukrainian nationalism. It's also begun flirting with Eurasianism of late. In plain terms, they seem to have been banned for many of the same reasons that other "left-wing" parties have been banned - because they're subversive fifth columnists that either knowingly support Russian foreign policy aims or that are useful dupes when it comes to those aims. And, notably, these bans came amid an atmosphere of indirect war with Russia in the Donbass - as recent bans have come amid more direct war with Russia.

The banning of Soviet symbols in Ukraine was intended directly as an attack on the political views of much of the Ukrainian population.

As to the rest of it, in 2014, it is pretty premature to call parties which actively supported Russian intervention against a government which more or less came to power through a coup, then banned much of its opposition and cracked down on the symbolism of much of its opposition, traitors. It would have been just as valid to consider Maidan traitors. It's not fifth-columnism to oppose the foreign policy aims of a government that just overthrew the government that was legally elected.

[Archinstinct]

(Know thine enemy.)

Rare is a communist who will fight other tankies. Is there communities where there are more like-minded people like yourself?

[Diarcesia]

On an unrelated note, some people not diving into the russia-side of the information war might be surprised to learn that outside of Putin bots, tankies are a large source of support for Putin's war. Then you users who have some loyalty to serbia or hungary to a lesser extent (I don't engage those people, since I can't speak those languages and google translate kind of stinks). But logically, since Russia is a conservative country, you'd expect more conservative users on social media to support Russia. Nope, in mother Russia, communism supports conservatism.. somehow.

I mean it was especially true in the dying days of the USSR, in the sense that a communism supporter there would try to "conserve" communism.

[HISPIDA]

Then you users who have some loyalty to serbia

TUPAC BIGGIE ALIVE SERBIA SERBIA GREATEST COUNTERY...., FUCK boSNIa fuck ALBANIEN FUCK CROATIA!!!!! I LOVE SERBIA RS

(for legal reasons this is a joke)

[Adamede]

Kind of shocking that Putin has seemingly killed Swiss neutrality.

Not a surprise. Switzerland and Austria may be next on NATO's docket.

Eh, they don't face a serious threat of invasion and they already get all the benefits of NATO membership with none of the costs.

[Infected Mushroom]

Analysis by EIU’s global forecasting team shows that two-thirds of the world’s population lives in neutral or Russia-leaning countries regarding war in Ukraine.

https://www.eiu.com/n/russia-can-count- ... countries/

We found that 36% of the world’s population live in countries that have actively condemned Russia and imposed sanctions on the Russian economy. Led by the US and the EU, this bloc includes all Western-leaning governments, such as Japan, Australia, Canada, the UK, South Korea, and (albeit to a lesser extent) Israel. Traditionally neutral countries, such as Switzerland, Finland and Sweden, have also joined the ranks of this Western front.

Meanwhile, nearly one third of the world’s population lives in a country that has remained neutral so far. Led by India, these non-aligned states–including Brazil, Saudi Arabia, South Africa and the UAE–will do their utmost to avoid picking sides while seeking to benefit from their apparent neutrality. We believe that a significant share of these countries would align with Russia if tensions were to escalate.
Finally, another 32% of the world’s population lives in a country where the government has supported Russia’s actions or where official declarations have echoed Russia’s narrative, including by avoiding calling the war an “invasion”. Led by China, in the long-term these countries will try to benefit from closer ties to an anti-Western bloc, further reinforcing a split in the global economic and geopolitical landscape.

---

The Western bloc is very loud and has most of the world’s GDP, but the rest of the world is aware of western double standards. I think this war has further polarized the world.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Analysis by EIU’s global forecasting team shows that two-thirds of the world’s population lives in neutral or Russia-leaning countries regarding war in Ukraine.

https://www.eiu.com/n/russia-can-count- ... countries/

We found that 36% of the world’s population live in countries that have actively condemned Russia and imposed sanctions on the Russian economy. Led by the US and the EU, this bloc includes all Western-leaning governments, such as Japan, Australia, Canada, the UK, South Korea, and (albeit to a lesser extent) Israel. Traditionally neutral countries, such as Switzerland, Finland and Sweden, have also joined the ranks of this Western front.

Meanwhile, nearly one third of the world’s population lives in a country that has remained neutral so far. Led by India, these non-aligned states–including Brazil, Saudi Arabia, South Africa and the UAE–will do their utmost to avoid picking sides while seeking to benefit from their apparent neutrality. We believe that a significant share of these countries would align with Russia if tensions were to escalate.
Finally, another 32% of the world’s population lives in a country where the government has supported Russia’s actions or where official declarations have echoed Russia’s narrative, including by avoiding calling the war an “invasion”. Led by China, in the long-term these countries will try to benefit from closer ties to an anti-Western bloc, further reinforcing a split in the global economic and geopolitical landscape.

Despite this articles cope, Russia cannot count on support from these nations. Exports from China and India (as well as the up and coming Vietnam) to Russia have nosedived right off a cliff compared to this time last year and business interests from both nations have quite openly and freely been breaking away from them.

[Infected Mushroom]

https://www.eiu.com/n/russia-can-count- ... countries/

Despite this articles cope, Russia cannot count on support from these nations. Exports from China and India (as well as the up and coming Vietnam) to Russia have nosedived right off a cliff compared to this time last year and business interests from both nations have quite openly and freely been breaking away from them.

The article isn’t pro-Russia. It’s simply stating things as is (huge amounts are people are either indifferent to the war or pro Russia).

People around here are barely talking about this war. When I’ve tried to talk about it they make some casual comments while saying it’s “a European issue.” Completely different framing.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Despite this articles cope, Russia cannot count on support from these nations. Exports from China and India (as well as the up and coming Vietnam) to Russia have nosedived right off a cliff compared to this time last year and business interests from both nations have quite openly and freely been breaking away from them.

The article isn’t pro-Russia. It’s simply stating things as is (huge amounts are people are either indifferent to the war or pro Russia).

People around here are barely talking about this war. When I’ve tried to to talk about it they make some casual comments while saying it’s “a European issue.” Completely different framing.

It's China, it doesn't matter what the average person thinks. It matters what the party and the capitalists think, and the numbers clearly show they're getting out of Russia as much as they can while still trying to play both sides. Business is way down between the two, and China is holding pretty firm that it's not going to get involved with any of the stuff Russia needs.