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Trans Discussion Thread: Catgirls Don't Need Litterboxes

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Mar 14, 2022 7:48 pm

Moroniland wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:I would have to independently verify that claim with my own fingers.

Well then independently think through how the logical argument behind the attack helicopter meme addresses the moral maxim that we should treat everyone the way they say they want to be treated.

I don't have to expend energy on respecting anybody's opinions without due and sincere cause. Just like how neither of us respects eachother right now.
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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Mon Mar 14, 2022 7:53 pm

Moroniland wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:I would have to independently verify that claim with my own fingers.

Well then independently think through how the logical argument behind the attack helicopter meme addresses the moral maxim that we should treat everyone the way they say they want to be treated.

What about the moral maxim that one should treat others the way oneself would want to be treated?
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Dreria
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Postby Dreria » Mon Mar 14, 2022 7:56 pm

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Moroniland wrote:If you say that we should all treat people as they want to be treated, then what do you do when someone pastes the well known I Sexually Identify As An Attack Helicopter meme and says that's how they want to be treated?

You can't take that meme seriously. It's obviously ridiculous. You don't go treating anyone who pastes that like they truly are an attack helicopter. Which means that you don't treat people the way they want to be treated -- or at least not the way they say they want to be treated. You make judgements that some people's expressed wishes (like trans people) are genuine while some other people's wishes (like the edgy 4chan meme) are not genuine. You're so used to doing this that you don't even recognize that you're doing it.

you know the "attack helicopter" thing is a malicious attempt at trolling right?

that’s the point of what he said, did you read it?
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Moroniland
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Postby Moroniland » Mon Mar 14, 2022 7:56 pm

Necroghastia wrote:no, i wanted you to state how you treat women
obviously

Oh! Look ... punctuation can make a lot of difference. The missing question mark and lack of division from the previous sentence made me interpret your post with an entirely different intention. I didn't realize you were asking me a question.

I think first we should distinguish between how I actually treat women and how I believe people should treat women. The former is a fact about me and my life history which I'm not willing to delve into while the latter is a philosophical question of relevance here. I would have a lot to say on the subject but I think we can keep this short by saying that I believe in traditional notions of honor and chivalry and that, in a single word, I am a complimentarian.

and various other types of ideas, like sciences, arts, etc

Are new gender identities spreading on social media scientific or artistic?
I'd say no: they're religious. They're going all the places where religious ideas typically go and doing all the things that religious ideas typically do. Most importantly, they're being treated in the exact same way religious ideas are.
Last edited by Moroniland on Mon Mar 14, 2022 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Malphe II
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Postby Malphe II » Mon Mar 14, 2022 7:56 pm

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Mutualist Chaos wrote:
Ah, I see. What is my religion, then?

Heathen paganism... naturally...

ᛚᛟᚲᛁ᛬ᛁᛊ᛬ᛞᛖᚠᛁᚾᛁᛏᛖᛚᛇ᛬ᚲᚹᛇᚱ᛬ᛚᛖᛏᛊ᛬ᛒᛇ᛬ᚱᛇᛚ
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Moroniland
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Postby Moroniland » Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:03 pm

Malphe II wrote:Have you talked to many people who identify as attack helicopters? If you're referring to any actual queer group then say it & quit hiding behind weird terminally online hypotheticals.

Malphe II, you are making my point for me. You aren't taking the attack helicopter meme seriously. You think that the expressed wishes of an "actual queer group" are genuine while the expressed wishes of some edgy teenager posting that meme are not genuine. Don't you? I would assume that you do.

But if you're going to make that distinction, between an "actual queer group" and a parody, then you are judging some people's wants as more genuine than others and so you are not obeying the maxim that we ought to treat everyone the way they want to be treated!

There's a sound principle in philosophical ethics that "ought entails can." It is only possible to have genuine moral obligations to do things that we can in fact do. We can't have a genuine moral obligation to do something if it can be proven that we literally cannot do the thing.

We literally cannot treat everyone the way they say they want to be treated, because we have some people who say that they want to be treated as an attack helicopter and we in fact can't treat them as an attack helicopter. Therefore, we cannot have a moral obligation to the maxim that we ought to treat everyone the way they want to be treated.
Last edited by Moroniland on Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:06 pm

This all sounds like a very roundabout way for you to self-justify treating other people like shit for whatever "reason" you can finagle.
Last edited by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary on Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Malphe II
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Postby Malphe II » Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:07 pm

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:This all sounds like a very roundabout way for you to self-justify treating other people like shit for whatever "reason" you can finagle.

That or just pure shitposting, either way I'm not finding it super engaging.
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Moroniland
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Postby Moroniland » Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:07 pm

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:This all sounds like a very roundabout way for you to self-justify treating other people like shit for whatever "reason" you can finagle.

Funny, that's just what my grandmother said about atheism.
"The wise man knows how little he knows."
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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:08 pm

Moroniland wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:no, i wanted you to state how you treat women
obviously

Oh! Look ... punctuation can make a lot of difference. The missing question mark and lack of division from the previous sentence made me interpret your post with an entirely different intention. I didn't realize you were asking me a question.

I think first we should distinguish between how I actually treat women and how I believe people should treat women. The former is a fact about me and my life history which I'm not willing to delve into while the latter is a philosophical question of relevance here. I would have a lot to say on the subject but I think we can keep this short by saying that I believe in traditional notions of honor and chivalry and that, in a single word, I am a complimentarian.

vague, but it's something. thank you.
and various other types of ideas, like sciences, arts, etc

Are new gender identities spreading on social media scientific or artistic?

yes, in that psychology is obviously an aspect of science, and arguably connected to art being a representation of the self (plus, y'know, the stereotype which tends to be true about queer people being drawn to the arts)
I'd say no: they're religious. They're going all the places where religious ideas typically go and doing all the things that religious ideas typically do. Most importantly, they're being treated in the exact same way religious ideas are.

a statement so vague as to be wholly meaningless
what are these places? these things? this treatment? what makes them distinctly religious?
Last edited by Necroghastia on Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:10 pm

Moroniland wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:This all sounds like a very roundabout way for you to self-justify treating other people like shit for whatever "reason" you can finagle.

Funny, that's just what my grandmother said about atheism.

Sure... and Putin's totally just "denazifying" Ukraine here.
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Prima Scriptura
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Postby Prima Scriptura » Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:13 pm

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:This all sounds like a very roundabout way for you to self-justify treating other people like shit for whatever "reason" you can finagle.

And it's "believable" just like when Putin says he's "denazifying" Ukraine.


I treat LGBT people with respect because my religion requires me to. I treat them the same way I treat “cishet” people. I will respect people’s chosen pronouns and would never purposely misgender someone. With that being said, I have a right to have my personal views on sexuality and gender.
Last edited by Prima Scriptura on Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Moroniland
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Postby Moroniland » Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:14 pm

Well it might help if I specified some alternatives to the maxim I've refuted.

I'm not a moral nihilist. Just because this particular maxim is shown to be untenable doesn't mean we have to be left with no ethics at all. Here are some other similar maxims which aren't refuted by the Attack Helicopter argument:

The Silver Rule: Do not do unto others what you would not want them to do unto you.

The Golden Rule: Do unto others what you would have others do unto you.

There is a problem with the Golden Rule as stated, which is that you could claim that you are a masochist so you enjoy pain and so spreading pain to others is following the Golden Rule. But Jesus, who communicated the Golden Rule, wasn't perverted enough have meant that and neither was his audience. It means do those actually good things unto others which you would have others do unto you, not literally anything. So I think that patches it up.

Either or both of these work better than the "treat other people the way they want" maxim.
Last edited by Moroniland on Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:19 pm

I should be surprised that we have an individual here vehemently defending certain people's "right" to be an unopposed shitbag. But it's 2022 and I've seen more than enough shit to desensitise me.
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Malphe II
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Postby Malphe II » Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:22 pm

Moroniland wrote:Well it might help if I specified some alternatives to the maxim I've refuted.

I'm not a moral nihilist. Just because this particular maxim is shown to be untenable doesn't mean we have to be left with no ethics at all. Here are some other similar maxims which aren't refuted by the Attack Helicopter argument:

The Silver Rule: Do not do unto others what you would not want them to do unto you.

The Golden Rule: Do unto others what you would have others do unto you.

There is a problem with the Golden Rule as stated, which is that you could claim that you are a masochist so you enjoy pain and so spreading pain to others is following the Golden Rule. But Jesus, who communicated the Golden Rule, wasn't perverted enough have meant that and neither was his audience. It means do those actually good things unto others which you would have others do unto you, not literally anything. So I think that patches it up.

Either or both of these work better than the "treat other people the way they want" maxim.

Stars above go back to your philosophy classes, I gave you practical advice on how to treat a minority, not an ethical maxim.
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Prima Scriptura
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Postby Prima Scriptura » Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:23 pm

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:I should be surprised that we have an individual here vehemently defending certain people's "right" to be an unopposed shitbag. But it's 2022 and I've seen more than enough shit to desensitise me.


Well, that may be because you appear to believe sexual orientation/gender identity is akin to race and ethnicity. I don’t. Being a POC isn’t a lifestyle, being LGBT is.
Last edited by Prima Scriptura on Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:24 pm

Prima Scriptura wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:I should be surprised that we have an individual here vehemently defending certain people's "right" to be an unopposed shitbag. But it's 2022 and I've seen more than enough shit to desensitise me.


Well, that may be because you appear to believe sexual orientation/gender identity is akin to race and ethnicity. I don’t. Being a POC isn’t a lifestyle, being LGBT is.

And being a shitbag to people is thus justifiable? Amaterasu have mercy...
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Prima Scriptura
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Postby Prima Scriptura » Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:26 pm

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Prima Scriptura wrote:
Well, that may be because you appear to believe sexual orientation/gender identity is akin to race and ethnicity. I don’t. Being a POC isn’t a lifestyle, being LGBT is.

And being a shitbag to people is thus justifiable? Amaterasu have mercy...


Lol, i’m going back to community college this fall, and if I am required to do a lab with a partner that is LGBT, they would not know my personal opinions about the lifestyle, because I wouldn’t treat them with disrespect .
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Izandai
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Postby Izandai » Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:30 pm

I'm just surprised everyone brushed past the "Being queer is a religion" thing. I woulda thought that's exactly the kind of bullshit people love to tear into.
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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:30 pm

Izandai wrote:I'm just surprised everyone brushed past the "Being queer is a religion" thing. I woulda thought that's exactly the kind of bullshit people love to tear into.

Tbh when people come up with gems like that they're beyond redemption.
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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:36 pm

Prima Scriptura wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:I should be surprised that we have an individual here vehemently defending certain people's "right" to be an unopposed shitbag. But it's 2022 and I've seen more than enough shit to desensitise me.


Well, that may be because you appear to believe sexual orientation/gender identity is akin to race and ethnicity. I don’t. Being a POC isn’t a lifestyle, being LGBT is.

Is being a cisgender heterosexual person a lifestyle?
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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:38 pm

Izandai wrote:I'm just surprised everyone brushed past the "Being queer is a religion" thing. I woulda thought that's exactly the kind of bullshit people love to tear into.

It's one of those things that is just out of left field that it's hard to figure out where to even begin, y'know?
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Mutualist Chaos
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Postby Mutualist Chaos » Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:44 pm

Izandai wrote:I'm just surprised everyone brushed past the "Being queer is a religion" thing. I woulda thought that's exactly the kind of bullshit people love to tear into.


I'm thinking maybe that discussion didn't go exactly the way he wanted it to:
Mutualist Chaos wrote:Nothing I can say or do can take away the feeling of God that people of faith have in their hearts. So maybe in that sense you're not completely barking up the wrong tree with this religion argument. But if that's the case, then on what grounds do you propose to deny people the right to practice their religion as they see fit, including allowing their children to learn about it, and to do so in public?


...?
Last edited by Mutualist Chaos on Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Prima Scriptura
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Postby Prima Scriptura » Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:47 pm

Necroghastia wrote:
Prima Scriptura wrote:
Well, that may be because you appear to believe sexual orientation/gender identity is akin to race and ethnicity. I don’t. Being a POC isn’t a lifestyle, being LGBT is.

Is being a cisgender heterosexual person a lifestyle?


Yes, it can be.
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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:53 pm

Prima Scriptura wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:Is being a cisgender heterosexual person a lifestyle?


Yes, it can be.

how come it "can be" but being lgbt "is?"
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