Embassy of The North Pacific

[Qvait]

Ah, but Qvait, doesn't TGW claim that they a spy in the raider chat that was feeding them all this information? If that's the case, your side should have been pretty well informed as to what was happening. Very strange that defenders acted in such a way, given all the information they had from their spy.

I would assume that you know that not all defenders are TGW and are completely privy to whatever sources they may have in the raider camp.

[RiderSyl]

Ah, but Qvait, doesn't TGW claim that they a spy in the raider chat that was feeding them all this information? If that's the case, your side should have been pretty well informed as to what was happening. Very strange that defenders acted in such a way, given all the information they had from their spy.

I would assume that you know that not all defenders are TGW and are completely privy to whatever sources they may have in the raider camp.

Well then, sounds like there should be more interorganizational intel-sharing than there is now. It could help prevent another accidental delegate-bump like this.

It's off limits. It will always be off limits. Do not use it, for thorning, for decoying, for staging, for hosting a goddamn R/D themed musical.

You do not touch Stargate.

There it is. That's what I was looking for.

I spoke with Jo for as long as I deemed was worthwhile.

That's a fun way of saying "I ignored him".

I get the feeling that TNP-LWU relations weren't all that great before this happened.

[Quebecshire]

Considering only ~7 of the roughly 35 crossed defenders actually moved to Stargate, we actually did try to prevent as many moves as possible. I specifically told people in VC not to move to the Stargate thorn, and Minskiev has attested publicly, for example, that me doing so stopped him from following the thorn.

Nobody would have been in Stargate at all if raiders did not explicitly attempt to bait our people into it. TNP has made it clear they understand this, so I'm not sure why LWU figures are continuing mental gymnastics in this thread.

[Quebecshire]

Well then, sounds like there should be more interorganizational intel-sharing than there is now. It could help prevent another accidental delegate-bump like this.

I can think of another thing that would prevent another accidental del-bump. It's a pretty radical concept, but maybe raiders should not have attempted to bait us into Stargate in the first place.

Even if TNP did think defenders earned blame for the tip, they've made it pretty explicit they view any military use of Stargate as illegitimate.

[Qvait]

Well then, sounds like there should be more interorganizational intel-sharing than there is now. It could help prevent another accidental delegate-bump like this.

Well, defenders have something called compartmentalization, which is something the raiders may wanna look into because they've been leaking like a sieve as of late, it seems.

[Altmoras]

-Snip-

Ah, but Qvait, doesn't TGW claim that they a spy in the raider chat that was feeding them all this information? If that's the case, your side should have been pretty well informed as to what was happening. Very strange that defenders acted in such a way, given all the information they had from their spy.

You mean the direct order given to the raiders to move to Stargate that 8 of them followed? Sure it's right here.

Miravana XX-Dec-21 XXX:XX XM
@Wolf 2 minute warning: target is https://www.nationstates.net/region=stargate
Points: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=desu-troyer
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=scottish_freedom

RADIO SILENCE FROM HERE ON OUT
@Wolf GO

Only 7 defenders out of our 40 stack chased into Stargate before update so if desu-troyer or scottish-freedom had moved to Stargate instead of Japan the raiders would have captured the region, those who chased saw multiple raiders move into a small founderless region and moved to block them as defenders do.

This narrative TBH and LWU are attempting to push that defenders are to blame for Stargate being disrupted after raiders selected Stargate as a target, told their troops it was the target, and moved 8 troops into the region before update is so laughable it's almost sad. Almost as sad as you waving your massive conflict of interest around regarding TNP re-evaluating their relations with LWU.

TBH and LWU decided to probe the depths of TNP's goodwill towards them, and it seems they found the bottom.

[RiderSyl]

Well, defenders have something called compartmentalization, which is something the raiders may wanna look into because they've been leaking like a sieve as of late, it seems.

What's the point of compartmentalizing intel regarding a thorn, though?

Well then, sounds like there should be more interorganizational intel-sharing than there is now. It could help prevent another accidental delegate-bump like this.

I can think of another thing that would prevent another accidental del-bump. It's a pretty radical concept, but maybe raiders should not have attempted to bait us into Stargate in the first place.

Depending on raiders to not do raider things rather than improving things on your own side is legitimately, unironically a pretty radical concept, Quebec.

[Blue Wolf II]

Well, defenders have something called compartmentalization, which is something the raiders may wanna look into because they've been leaking like a sieve as of late, it seems.

Ah yes. LibCord seems very "compartmentalized".

In any case, all I'm seeing here is a bunch of Defenders blaming raiders a defender screw up which cost a region a nice number. You can aruge all day long that none of this would have happened had raiders not existed, but defenders are the ones who made the mistake that cost Stargate their "days held" record. Not much "mental gymnatics" needed for that.

Especially given that defenders knew that it was a distraction, and not a real invasion at all.

[RiderSyl]

Especially given that defenders knew that it was a distraction, and not a real invasion at all.

Wait a minute.

If TGW knew in advance that Stargate was going to see a thorn, but didn't tell other defender organizations because "no leaks", then that's a poor decision, right?

If it leaks from LibCord that Stargate was going to get thorned, raiders would still get in hot water for that and there's the added bonus of Stargate never actually being fucked with because raiders wouldn't follow through with it.

There's actually an argument to be made that it would've been prudent to intentionally leak that Stargate was being targeted for military activity ahead of time, if TGW had that intel.

Does that make sense?

[Fauxia]

Thank you North Polish Union for your posts in this thread. It's amazing that in a discussion that includes Evil Wolf another source has generated the most hilarious conspiracy theory here.

[Vando0sa]

Well since the treaty is off does that mean we can raid Stargate now?

[New Makasta]

Especially given that defenders knew that it was a distraction, and not a real invasion at all.

Wait a minute.

If TGW knew in advance that Stargate was going to see a thorn, but didn't tell other defender organizations because "no leaks", then that's a poor decision, right?

If it leaks from LibCord that Stargate was going to get thorned, raiders would still get in hot water for that and there's the added bonus of Stargate never actually being fucked with because raiders wouldn't follow through with it.

There's actually an argument to be made that it would've been prudent to intentionally leak that Stargate was being targeted for military activity ahead of time, if TGW had that intel.

Does that make sense?

TGW did know in advance and had altered people within Libcord (for your protection TM) at the time, however as has been stated numerous times in the 3ish seconds you have to figure out if something is real or not and you have 40+ people some of whom might not be reading the discord and others who just move on instinct without thinking you get some people moving in despite the warning

Hope this helps

[A Bloodred Moon]

At no point have I refused to speak with diplomatic representatives of either TBH or LWU. Stop lying.

I spoke with both Miravana and Jo prior to the decision. I informed Miravana of our decision prior to making the announcement, as a courtesy for our long working relationship with The Black Hawks. I did not inform Jo prior to our announcement.

I spoke with Jo for as long as I deemed was worthwhile.

These three quotes about how you spoke to me are more than you ever spoke to me, for the record. While they stand by technicality, as you did send me two messages (one of which was inquiring whether you were even supposed to speak to me), I hardly would describe it as 'speaking to' considering I have no indication whether you even read my responses, inquiries and offers (and generally, I'd consider speaking to a diplomatic and military partner to mean talking with them rather than ignoring them once they inquired after your initial message). You did not notify us of what you wanted. You did not respond to a request for talks, to see if we could settle this matter, a courtesy we (and I presume most other regions) usually offer to diplomatic partners in the event of a dispute. You did not notify us of the statement after it was made publicly. That is all up to you, but your wording implies an entirely different experience surrounding communications between LWU and TNP than I had.

I don't know what you sent to TBH, other than the fact it was apparently more than you sent us. I doubt they were given anymore of a chance to resolve this dispute, considering they are also hit with the same issues. I'd hoped the North would be courteous enough to attempt to notify their long-standing partnerships of their grievances in private first, and attempt to work together to come to a resolution, but it seems that they have chosen otherwise. It is regrettable that this was the route they chose to take, and that this is the decision they came to, but it is up to TNP. Should they wish to mend relations in the future, we would be open to doing so.

I get the feeling that TNP-LWU relations weren't all that great before this happened.

A reasonable assumption when one sees this statement, but if the North Pacific had any problems with Lone Wolves United prior to this I was not aware of it. We maintained off-site embassies, supported the NPA when they requested it and in turn invited the NPA to raids. While these were not the tightest of relations, they certainly had shown no signs of fraying. The only issue I recall was the North Pacific adding us to their counter-recruitment list in march of 2020; to this day, I have no idea why they did so. They did not notify us then, and when we inquired after it earlier this year we were not given a reason either - we were simply removed from the list.

[Madjack]

your wording implies an entirely different experience surrounding communications between LWU and TNP than I had.

What you take from my wording is up to you. We spoke, I made clear what the issue was, your response was noted. I saw no need for further talks beyond that.

A reasonable assumption when one sees this statement, but if the North Pacific had any problems with Lone Wolves United prior to this I was not aware of it.

Prior to this we had no issues.

The only issue I recall was the North Pacific adding us to their counter-recruitment list in march of 2020; to this day, I have no idea why they did so. They did not notify us then, and when we inquired after it earlier this year we were not given a reason either - we were simply removed from the list.

With regards to this, you weren't given a reason for why you were on it because at the time we didn't know why you were on it. We still don't, though given that you were added at the same time as Hydra Command I could hazard a guess that it was related to recruitment targeted beyond just new nations.

[Davelands]

A reasonable assumption when one sees this statement, but if the North Pacific had any problems with Lone Wolves United prior to this I was not aware of it.

Prior to this we had no issues.

So, the first time you had any issue with a 10-year embassied region you just cast them aside with minimal to no communication.
If I was a region that had "strong" relations with TNP I'd be worried that we would be treated the same way.

[Madjack]

Prior to this we had no issues.

So, the first time you had any issue with a 10-year embassied region you just cast them aside with minimal to no communication.
If I was a region that had "strong" relations with TNP I'd be worried that we would be treated the same way.

Let me rephrase, since there's a whole cadre of people apparently waiting for 'gotchas', I can't talk for previous administrations, only those where I had control of TNP FA policy - over the last 8 months, we had no issues.

What LWU and TBH did was a serious thing and no mere apology - not that one has actually been extended, beyond Mira doing an 'I apologise if this upsets you' - would've repaired the damage done. You do not stage military gameplay in Stargate. That's been clear for as long as we've had an embassy with LWU.

I don't particularly enjoy having to do this, but it had to be done.

[Fantoccini]

It sounds like emotions have driven the decision making.

[Madjack]

Funnily enough if someone takes liberties with an ally of my region, anger is a justified emotion.

But no, emotions haven't 'driven' anything. My cabinet and I had a discussion on next steps, and we agreed on these.

[Davelands]

MJ, it's not a "gotcha". As Delegate you are (or should) be aware of the historical relationship status between TNP and LWU (and TBH). Not for the whole 10 years maybe, but certainly for the past few years. It's not like you just arrived in TNP.

Fantoccini may have hit it on the head. You were understandably upset at what happened but you let your emotions guide your decision-making.

[Fantoccini]

Personally, I think Dave hit it on the head about me hitting it on the head. Defenders bumped the delegate and that made MJ angry but he couldn’t afford to direct his anger at the defenders who apparently had advance knowledge. Just compounded with the fact that this is right at the end of your term, I can understand letting emotion carry you away. After all, it’ll be somebody else’s mess to clean up.

[Madjack]

MJ, it's not a "gotcha". As Delegate you are (or should) be aware of the historical relationship status between TNP and LWU (and TBH). Not for the whole 10 years maybe, but certainly for the past few years. It's not like you just arrived in TNP.

I'll take opinions on what exactly I as delegate of TNP should be doing from one group of people and one group of people only - TNP's citizens. Delving into archives to find out if LWU and TNP have been best buds or frenemies for the last ten years really isn't worth anyone's time nor is it really relevant to the decision we made here.

You don't touch Stargate. That doesn't change based on who it is that's doing the touching.

Personally, I think Dave hit it on the head about me hitting it on the head. Defenders bumped the delegate and that made MJ angry but he couldn’t afford to direct his anger at the defenders who apparently had advance knowledge. Just compounded with the fact that this is right at the end of your term, I can understand letting emotion carry you away. After all, it’ll be somebody else’s mess to clean up.

This pre-supposes several things:
1. TNP doesn't have the political capital to direct its ire towards defenders when it's warranted. We do and have done both in the recent and distant past.
2. I'm not fully intent on running - and winning - again.
3. That these measures aren't reasonable and proportionate to using a treatied ally of TNP for R/D when we've made it very, very clear over the last decade that Stargate is not to be touched.

None of your assumptions are correct.

[Davelands]

I see that you just left The Sportsbook's Discord.
It's a shame since you have been there from the beginning.
If this is how you react to some rather gentle comments then you really are letting your emotions get the better of you.
Of course you are always welcome to come back.

[Fantoccini]

This pre-supposes several things:
1. TNP doesn't have the political capital to direct its ire towards defenders when it's warranted. We do and have done both in the recent and distant past.
2. I'm not fully intent on running - and winning - again.
3. That these measures aren't reasonable and proportionate to using a treatied ally of TNP for R/D when we've made it very, very clear over the last decade that Stargate is not to be touched.

None of your assumptions are correct.

So is a public temper tantrum part of your campaign platform? This is starting to make more sense.

[RiderSyl]

So uh, when I went on that tangent about defender intel and how it was handled, I had actually missed the post by Altmoras that had rendered what I was saying total nonsense, so ya... nevermind what I was saying in those last two posts.

A reasonable assumption when one sees this statement, but if the North Pacific had any problems with Lone Wolves United prior to this I was not aware of it.

Prior to this we had no issues.

Okay, then I'll just ask, because I'm sure I'm not the only one to pass through this thread and not know. Why is Stargate so sacred?

[Madjack]

I won't be addressing your last post Davelands.

This pre-supposes several things:
1. TNP doesn't have the political capital to direct its ire towards defenders when it's warranted. We do and have done both in the recent and distant past.
2. I'm not fully intent on running - and winning - again.
3. That these measures aren't reasonable and proportionate to using a treatied ally of TNP for R/D when we've made it very, very clear over the last decade that Stargate is not to be touched.

None of your assumptions are correct.

So is a public temper tantrum part of your campaign platform? This is starting to make more sense.

This really isn't a temper tantrum of any kind. I'd say you were welcome to come and take part in our election and be one of those voters I intend on winning the vote of but uh... well I think we both know that won't be happening.

Why is Stargate so sacred?

Because we say it is.