Embassy of The North Pacific

[The North Polish Union]

I wouldn't call attacking a treaty ally a "mild offense." TBH should have known better, or if they didn't care that it was one of TNP's allies, should have expected a firm response from them. TBH brought this on themselves.

TNP acknowledges that TBH was "not cross-endorsed and so the risk of a raider delegate being installed was minimal." That's not "attacking a treaty ally".

The so-called 'defenders' on the other hand overthrew the native delegate. Given that in the TGW thread it is admitted that TNP "is one of the most reliable supporters of invasions among the Feeders" I struggle to believe that this violent overthrow was any sort of accident on the part of the 'defenders'. TNP opposed them ideologically and were punished; in this case it had the added benefit of attempting (apparently successfully) to drive a wedge between TNP and TBH

[The Church of Satan]

TNP acknowledges that TBH was "not cross-endorsed and so the risk of a raider delegate being installed was minimal." That's not "attacking a treaty ally".

The so-called 'defenders' on the other hand overthrew the native delegate. Given that in the TGW thread it is admitted that TNP "is one of the most reliable supporters of invasions among the Feeders" I struggle to believe that this violent overthrow was any sort of accident on the part of the 'defenders'. TNP opposed them ideologically and were punished; in this case it had the added benefit of attempting (apparently successfully) to drive a wedge between TNP and TBH

TBH created the risk by using Stargate as a decoy ​there in the first place. TNP recognized that fact. It is not in dispute. Even if the attack wasn't intended to be successful, it is still an attack.

[The North Polish Union]

TNP acknowledges that TBH was "not cross-endorsed and so the risk of a raider delegate being installed was minimal." That's not "attacking a treaty ally".

The so-called 'defenders' on the other hand overthrew the native delegate. Given that in the TGW thread it is admitted that TNP "is one of the most reliable supporters of invasions among the Feeders" I struggle to believe that this violent overthrow was any sort of accident on the part of the 'defenders'. TNP opposed them ideologically and were punished; in this case it had the added benefit of attempting (apparently successfully) to drive a wedge between TNP and TBH

TBH created the risk by using Stargate as a decoy ​there in the first place. TNP recognized that fact. It is not in dispute. Even if the attack wasn't intended to be successful, it is still an attack.

Moving nations through a region with essentially zero chance to take the delegacy isn't an 'attack', and won't ever be

[Dakota Vytherov]

TBH created the risk by using Stargate as a decoy ​there in the first place. TNP recognized that fact. It is not in dispute. Even if the attack wasn't intended to be successful, it is still an attack.

Moving nations through a region with essentially zero chance to take the delegacy isn't an 'attack', and won't ever be

Even if it wasn't an outright attack on Stargate, LWU/TBH shouldn't have used Stargate as a region to thorn into given the risk that defenders would move there cross-endorsed and disrupt the native from their delegacy. Leave the protectorates of your allies out of your R/D strategizing if out of respect for the allies and understanding that by getting a region involved in R/D in any way there comes risks.

[Madjack]

TBH created the risk by using Stargate as a decoy ​there in the first place. TNP recognized that fact. It is not in dispute. Even if the attack wasn't intended to be successful, it is still an attack.

Moving nations through a region with essentially zero chance to take the delegacy isn't an 'attack', and won't ever be

It should be clear - because we've made it clear, repeatedly - by now that involving Stargate in R/D shenanigans is not ever going to be acceptable. It's off limits. It will always be off limits. Do not use it, for thorning, for decoying, for staging, for hosting a goddamn R/D themed musical.

You do not touch Stargate.

[Big Bad Badger]

I am personally appalled at the cavalier disregard that raiders had for whatever this is.

I am appalled at the fake outrage over defenders getting duped into toppling a Delegacy in a region that no one has given two shits about for 5+ years. I feel like this loud whinge is instigating someone to raid Stargate for real.

[Quebecshire]

I am personally appalled at the cavalier disregard that raiders had for whatever this is.

I am appalled at the fake outrage over defenders getting duped into toppling a Delegacy in a region that no one has given two shits about for 5+ years. I feel like this loud whinge is instigating someone to raid Stargate for real.

If someone is dumb enough to do so we'll happily assemble another 100+ person liberation to help the NPA restore its longtime ally to their rightful rulers.

Not like we would need 100+ anyway, as nobody other than LWU and TBH are dumb enough to mess with Stargate at all.

[Fantoccini]

I am personally appalled at the cavalier disregard that raiders had for whatever this is.

I am appalled at the fake outrage over defenders getting duped into toppling a Delegacy in a region that no one has given two shits about for 5+ years. I feel like this loud whinge is instigating someone to raid Stargate for real.

I don’t understand how you can be so insensitive, Badger. This has caused real suffering and hardship to our friends in the North. With defenders not taking responsibility, it is incumbent upon raiders to take up the yoke themselves. Imagine how current delegate in the North must feel right now.

[Lord Dominator]

I am appalled at the fake outrage over defenders getting duped into toppling a Delegacy in a region that no one has given two shits about for 5+ years. I feel like this loud whinge is instigating someone to raid Stargate for real.

I don’t understand how you can be so insensitive, Badger. This has caused real suffering and hardship to our friends in the North. With defenders not taking responsibility, it is incumbent upon raiders to take up the yoke themselves. Imagine how current delegate in the North must feel right now.

MJ has been pretty clear about how they feel I think

[Davelands]

... R/D shenanigans ...

OK Boomer

[Syberis]

Moving nations through a region with essentially zero chance to take the delegacy isn't an 'attack', and won't ever be

Even if it wasn't an outright attack on Stargate, LWU/TBH shouldn't have used Stargate as a region to thorn into given the risk that defenders would move there cross-endorsed and disrupt the native from their delegacy. Leave the protectorates of your allies out of your R/D strategizing if out of respect for the allies and understanding that by getting a region involved in R/D in any way there comes risks.

So raiders should watch out to make sure nothing they do could cause defenders to potentially make a mess. Real "Look what you made us do" energy.

Perhaps defenders should pay attention instead of trusting raiders to make sure nothing bad happens.

[Apatosaurus]

Even if it wasn't an outright attack on Stargate, LWU/TBH shouldn't have used Stargate as a region to thorn into given the risk that defenders would move there cross-endorsed and disrupt the native from their delegacy. Leave the protectorates of your allies out of your R/D strategizing if out of respect for the allies and understanding that by getting a region involved in R/D in any way there comes risks.

So raiders should watch out to make sure nothing they do could cause defenders to potentially make a mess. Real "Look what you made us do" energy.

Perhaps defenders should pay attention instead of trusting raiders to make sure nothing bad happens.

As someone who jumped in the operation, I can guarantee you that the delegate bump on Stargate happened because we cross-endorsed to defend Stargate and had more endorsements than the native. You expect defenders to allow Stargate, which is protected by a GCR that is allied with several defender regions, to get raided?

[Great Algerstonia]

... R/D shenanigans ...

OK Boomer

fendas owned, tnp crying

[Madjack]

I am personally appalled at the cavalier disregard that raiders had for whatever this is.

I am appalled at the fake outrage over defenders getting duped into toppling a Delegacy in a region that no one has given two shits about for 5+ years. I feel like this loud whinge is instigating someone to raid Stargate for real.

I am appalled at the fake outrage over defenders getting duped into toppling a Delegacy in a region that no one has given two shits about for 5+ years. I feel like this loud whinge is instigating someone to raid Stargate for real.

I'd apologise for the clear mental duress our statement has caused you, but instead I must use valuable consoling time to correct your post - we never stopped giving "two shits" about Stargate. It's what a region committed to its allies and their wellbeing does. They also step in to ensure that liberties aren't being taken with them, which is what we've done here.
I don’t understand how you can be so insensitive, Badger. This has caused real suffering and hardship to our friends in the North. With defenders not taking responsibility, it is incumbent upon raiders to take up the yoke themselves. Imagine how current delegate in the North must feel right now.

And so the wheel turns and a new TWP talking head starts spouting off in gameplay. Hello, friend. This is a good start but you're not even on Vara's level at this stage. Do try and improve.

... R/D shenanigans ...

OK Boomer

This is the best post you've ever made. I'm honoured to have caused it.

[Madjack]

Even if it wasn't an outright attack on Stargate, LWU/TBH shouldn't have used Stargate as a region to thorn into given the risk that defenders would move there cross-endorsed and disrupt the native from their delegacy. Leave the protectorates of your allies out of your R/D strategizing if out of respect for the allies and understanding that by getting a region involved in R/D in any way there comes risks.

So raiders should watch out to make sure nothing they do could cause defenders to potentially make a mess. Real "Look what you made us do" energy.

Perhaps defenders should pay attention instead of trusting raiders to make sure nothing bad happens.

Perhaps raiders shouldn't use our treatied allies for their thorns.

[Evil Wolf]

Perhaps raiders shouldn't use our treatied allies for their thorns.

Perhaps you should stop using this non-issue to push your own self-serving agenda.

The thorn didn't even break the actual terms of the treaty, you personally, Madjack, are just making this into a nontraversy. If you want to be mad at someone for breaking the Stargate delegate's streak, maybe be mad at the actual people who did it, neither of which were LWU nor TBH.

Your claims, Madjack, of a treaty violation are, at best, a misinterpretation and, at worst, a flat out lie. However, I'll give you the benifit of the doubt. Maybe you think we violated the spirit of the treaty, eh? Perhaps we could talk to the TNP representitive who signed that treaty and get their insight? I can only wonder who that might be.

Either way, I don't see how you, Madjack, breaking off relations and refusing to speak with diplomatic representives of either TBH or LWU, in private or in public, benifits The North Pacific. It's almost like you don't want to come up with a solution, Madjack. I can only wonder why that might be.

[Madjack]

Perhaps raiders shouldn't use our treatied allies for their thorns.

Perhaps you should stop using this non-issue to push your own self-serving agenda.

The thorn didn't even break the actual terms of the treaty, you personally, Madjack, are just making this into a nontraversy. If you want to be mad at someone for breaking the Stargate delegate's streak, maybe be mad at the actual people who did it, neither of which were LWU nor TBH.

Your claims, Madjack, of a treaty violation are, at best, a misinterpretation and, at worst, a flat out lie. However, I'll give you the benifit of the doubt. Maybe you think we violated the spirit of the treaty, eh? Perhaps we could talk to the TNP representitive who signed that treaty and get their insight? I can only wonder who that might be.

None of this had any relevance to what our statement said. You should try reading it, if doing so can fit into that busy three weeks of TNP-related activity you fit into the year.

Either way, I don't see how you, Madjack, breaking off relations and refusing to speak with diplomatic representives of either TBH or LWU, in private or in public, benifits The North Pacific.

At no point have I refused to speak with diplomatic representatives of either TBH or LWU. Stop lying.

And get a fucking spellchecker.

[Evil Wolf]

[At no point have I refused to speak with diplomatic representatives of either TBH or LWU. Stop lying.

Very mich not the information I'm getting through the grapevine. What sort of talks did you have with those two groups before you made your decision? And did you bother informing them before making your public statement here? Maybe you could clear the air on some rather nasty rumors.

[Madjack]

[At no point have I refused to speak with diplomatic representatives of either TBH or LWU. Stop lying.

Very mich not the information I'm getting through the grapevine.

I expect any grapes you're currently involved with are quite sour.

What sort of talks did you have with those two groups before you made your decision? And did you bother informing them before making it public here? Maybe you could clear the air on some rather nasty rumors.

I spoke with both Miravana and Jo prior to the decision. I informed Miravana of our decision prior to making the announcement, as a courtesy for our long working relationship with The Black Hawks. I did not inform Jo prior to our announcement.

[Apatosaurus]

[At no point have I refused to speak with diplomatic representatives of either TBH or LWU. Stop lying.

Very mich not the information I'm getting through the grapevine. What sort of talks did you have with those two groups before you made your decision? And did you bother informing them before making your public statement here? Maybe you could clear the air on some rather nasty rumors.

Evil Wolf is lying? I can't believe it!

[Evil Wolf]

I did not inform Jo prior to our announcement.

Ah, I see. So you just cut LWU out? A region The North Pacific has had an embassy with for a little over 10 years? Do you not think TNP needs to respect regions with which it has had relations with for over a decade?

[Madjack]

I did not inform Jo prior to our announcement.

Ah, I see. So you just cut LWU out? A region The North Pacific has had an embassy with for a little over 10 years? Do you not think TNP needs to respect regions with which it has had relations with for over a decade?

I spoke with Jo for as long as I deemed was worthwhile. I don't actually enjoy closing 10 year old embassies EW but at a certain point either our agreements with our treatied allies mean something or they don't. You, clearly, would rather they don't. That's fine, but let's not pretend that you're not arguing that TNP should let groups you like take liberties with our allies.

It wouldn't have flown when you were the delegate who made the agreement with Stargate. It doesn't fly now.

[Evil Wolf]

I don't actually enjoy closing 10 year old embassies EW but at a certain point either our agreements with our treatied allies mean something or they don't. You, clearly, would rather they don't.

My dear, as you so succinctly pointed out, I am the one that proposed, negotiated, and signed The North Pacific into the agreement with Stargate when I was TNP Delegate. It's my general opinion, as the signer of that document of behalf of TNP, that neither TBH nor LWU violated it, insulted it, disrespected it, nor took liberties regarding it. You yourself called the risk of any raider take over "minimum" and it has been stated repeatedly, both by yourself and by TBH and LWU, that the move was a thorn not an invasion.

The facts are Defenders screwed up jumping out of a thorn, a thorn they should have had advanced knowledge of because of a spy they claim to have had in the raider chat. If that's the case, why did they stay at all? You seem very eager to assign blame on the parties that didn't take over Stargate's delegacy.

I spoke with Jo for as long as I deemed was worthwhile.

That's a fun way of saying "I ignored him".

[Qvait]

The so-called 'defenders' on the other hand overthrew the native delegate. Given that in the TGW thread it is admitted that TNP "is one of the most reliable supporters of invasions among the Feeders" I struggle to believe that this violent overthrow was any sort of accident on the part of the 'defenders'. TNP opposed them ideologically and were punished; in this case it had the added benefit of attempting (apparently successfully) to drive a wedge between TNP and TBH

This statement is way out of line and far from reality. As the person who accidentally toppled Casl's delegacy, lemme make it clear that no one among defenders intended to unseat Casl. Here is some evidence from the operation:

Exhibit A:


Exhibit B:


As you see above, defenders and myself (Blue Jay 1) moved into Stargate in pursuit of LWU/TBH, who were the first to move. Immediately after moving to Stargate, I endorsed the native delegate (Casl). However, as I was doing that, another person in Libcord's VC said to move back, but by the time that was said and in the time for me to react, Stargate had already updated, and Casl was no longer delegate. At no point did we actively attempt to unseat Casl, as you seem to suggest, which is evidenced by my endorsement of them just seconds before the region updated. Unfortunately, the other defenders who were also in the region were cross-endorsed with me, which resulted in Casl's unseating.

I don't know how much you know about R/D, but you should know that it often takes a split-second to prevent raiders from successfully invading regions. Defenders often don't have the luxury of knowing where the raiders will strike, so for us to have premeditated an invasion of Stargate only after people from LWU/TBH come into the region with the forethought that it would harm TNP's relationship with LWU/TBH is genius. Sure, that characterization of this incident is spot-on. Give me a break. That is total nonsense.

One more thing (edit): It may seem like a surprise to you, but six seconds is not enough time for me to think about the political ramifications of moving and endorsing the native delegate in an attempt to prevent an unseating, which inevitably failed on our part because of cross-endorsement, and the thinking that LWU/TBH and TNP would have a falling out over it. Six seconds, mind you.

[Blue Wolf II]

-Snip-

Ah, but Qvait, doesn't TGW claim that they had a spy in the raider chat that was feeding them all this information? If that's the case, your side should have been pretty well informed as to what was happening. Very strange that defenders acted in such a way, given all the information they had from their spy.