by Ostroeuropa » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:20 pm
by Fiorina-Fury 161 » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:21 pm
by Prima Scriptura » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:22 pm
Ostroeuropa wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/17/world/europe/russia-nato-security-deal.html
https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/rso/na ... ar_cache=Y
Russian Demands:
1. NATO forces and equipment to withdraw from Czechia, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Croatia, Montenegro and North Macedonia, as well and any forces stationed in non-member states such as military trainers in Ukraine.
2. No more NATO expansion, regardless of where in the world.
3. No NATO military exercises in Ukraine, Eastern Europe, Southern Caucuses and Central Asia.
-----------
We should probably begin to prepare in case this escalates. These demands are unhinged enough that I am now beginning to doubt that Russia is governed by rational actors who will avoid war with NATO.
by Goraria » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:27 pm
News: A man has fallen into a river in lego city start by building the rescue helicopter. I am of goods at spellings and of grammer. NSstats is cringe.
by Prima Scriptura » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:28 pm
Goraria wrote:Tbh in my eyes, this is probably an attempt for Russia to improve their influence in Eastern Europe and possibly weaken NATO so Russia would do their own thing without NATO interfering with their plans or some sort.
by HISPIDA » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:36 pm
by Ostroeuropa » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:39 pm
Hispida wrote:lmaooooooooo russia with the small dick energy
russia aint gonna do shit if nato just says "no"
russia can't win against nato and russia knows this
it's just power projection
by Antipatros » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:42 pm
by Goraria » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:42 pm
Hispida wrote:lmaooooooooo russia with the small dick energy
russia aint gonna do shit if nato just says "no"
russia can't win against nato and russia knows this
it's just power projection
News: A man has fallen into a river in lego city start by building the rescue helicopter. I am of goods at spellings and of grammer. NSstats is cringe.
by Prima Scriptura » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:42 pm
Ostroeuropa wrote:Hispida wrote:lmaooooooooo russia with the small dick energy
russia aint gonna do shit if nato just says "no"
russia can't win against nato and russia knows this
it's just power projection
Are we able to take the risk that they won't do anything is the thing.
I'm not proposing we launch a pre-emptive strike.
I'm just saying that I think this demand is absurd and divorced from reality enough that i'm now concerned that they might think they can attack NATO and get away with it, because that is a similar level of divorced from reality. I think we need to be prepared for that possibility.
by Novo Reslas » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:43 pm
by Fiorina-Fury 161 » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:44 pm
Prima Scriptura wrote:Ostroeuropa wrote:
Are we able to take the risk that they won't do anything is the thing.
I'm not proposing we launch a pre-emptive strike.
I'm just saying that I think this demand is absurd and divorced from reality enough that i'm now concerned that they might think they can attack NATO and get away with it, because that is a similar level of divorced from reality. I think we need to be prepared for that possibility.
If Putin attacks a NATO member state, then Putin is signing his death warrant. China is not going to have his back. China will most likely be neutral. Who will support him?
by The Holy Therns » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:45 pm
Gallade wrote:Love, cake, wine and banter. No greater meaning to life (〜^∇^)〜
Ethel mermania wrote:to therns is to transend the pettiness of the field of play into the field of dreams.
by HISPIDA » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:47 pm
Ostroeuropa wrote:Hispida wrote:lmaooooooooo russia with the small dick energy
russia aint gonna do shit if nato just says "no"
russia can't win against nato and russia knows this
it's just power projection
Are we able to take the risk that they won't do anything is the thing.
I'm not proposing we launch a pre-emptive strike.
I'm just saying that I think this demand is absurd and divorced from reality enough that i'm now concerned that they might think they can attack NATO and get away with it, because that is a similar level of divorced from reality. I think we need to be prepared for that possibility.
by Orostan » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:47 pm
Ostroeuropa wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/17/world/europe/russia-nato-security-deal.html
https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/rso/na ... ar_cache=Y
Russian Demands:
1. NATO forces and equipment to withdraw from Czechia, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Croatia, Montenegro and North Macedonia, as well and any forces stationed in non-member states such as military trainers in Ukraine.
2. No more NATO expansion, regardless of where in the world.
3. No NATO military exercises in Ukraine, Eastern Europe, Southern Caucuses and Central Asia.
-----------
My opinion:
We should probably begin to prepare in case this escalates. These demands are unhinged enough that I am now beginning to doubt that Russia is governed by rational actors who will avoid war with NATO. Russia has continuously escalated and done a bunch of shit by this point.
We probably need to discuss whether to adopt Russia's shadow-war strategies in the coming months and adopt a policy of assassinations while gaslighting Russia over it and so on, such would be preferable to WW3. Impressing upon Russian generals and oligarchs that we are not going to capitulate and they had best get rid of Putin and his government and so on, perhaps negotiating with them in terms of "Well. I'm sure that given the situation, the freezing of your accounts could be lifted" and so on.
But I am now of the opinion that the Putin government needs to be brought down by any means short of that which will provoke war, and that we probably do need to be prepared for Russia to start a war.
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.
Napoleon Bonaparte wrote:“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”
Cicero wrote:"In times of war, the laws fall silent"
by Ostroeuropa » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:49 pm
Orostan wrote:Ostroeuropa wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/17/world/europe/russia-nato-security-deal.html
https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/rso/na ... ar_cache=Y
Russian Demands:
1. NATO forces and equipment to withdraw from Czechia, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Croatia, Montenegro and North Macedonia, as well and any forces stationed in non-member states such as military trainers in Ukraine.
2. No more NATO expansion, regardless of where in the world.
3. No NATO military exercises in Ukraine, Eastern Europe, Southern Caucuses and Central Asia.
-----------
My opinion:
We should probably begin to prepare in case this escalates. These demands are unhinged enough that I am now beginning to doubt that Russia is governed by rational actors who will avoid war with NATO. Russia has continuously escalated and done a bunch of shit by this point.
We probably need to discuss whether to adopt Russia's shadow-war strategies in the coming months and adopt a policy of assassinations while gaslighting Russia over it and so on, such would be preferable to WW3. Impressing upon Russian generals and oligarchs that we are not going to capitulate and they had best get rid of Putin and his government and so on, perhaps negotiating with them in terms of "Well. I'm sure that given the situation, the freezing of your accounts could be lifted" and so on.
But I am now of the opinion that the Putin government needs to be brought down by any means short of that which will provoke war, and that we probably do need to be prepared for Russia to start a war.
You people are insane. NATO has put itself right on Russia's border - Russia is only demanding that an immediate threat to its existence be ended. The danger of war in Europe has always been created by NATO being aggressive and you people don't understand how close the world can be pushed to nuclear war by mindless expansion on NATO's part. The issue of this offer - which does not actually demand NATO "abandon" Eastern Europe (a place it has no right to be in the first place anyways), it only demands that NATO move its military farther away from Russia.
This would be a great agreement for deescalation and the fact that you, Ostroeuropa, want a nuclear war that would obliterate the human race greatly worries me.
Also, this agreement is not even an ultimatum! It's a bilateral agreement Russia proposed, they're not demanding with military force that anyone sign this.
by Orostan » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:50 pm
Hispida wrote:Ostroeuropa wrote:
Are we able to take the risk that they won't do anything is the thing.
I'm not proposing we launch a pre-emptive strike.
I'm just saying that I think this demand is absurd and divorced from reality enough that i'm now concerned that they might think they can attack NATO and get away with it, because that is a similar level of divorced from reality. I think we need to be prepared for that possibility.
russia's not stupid enough to go against nato
russia has not been able to win a war against the west since 1945
they couldn't win a war against nato (which is why they backed out of cuba, berlin, etc) in the cold war and they definitely couldn't win a war against nato now
russia's a regional power; if russia is genuinely thinking about fighting nato then it's like uzbekistan thinking about fighting china
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.
Napoleon Bonaparte wrote:“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”
Cicero wrote:"In times of war, the laws fall silent"
by Prima Scriptura » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:51 pm
Orostan wrote:Ostroeuropa wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/17/world/europe/russia-nato-security-deal.html
https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/rso/na ... ar_cache=Y
Russian Demands:
1. NATO forces and equipment to withdraw from Czechia, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Croatia, Montenegro and North Macedonia, as well and any forces stationed in non-member states such as military trainers in Ukraine.
2. No more NATO expansion, regardless of where in the world.
3. No NATO military exercises in Ukraine, Eastern Europe, Southern Caucuses and Central Asia.
-----------
My opinion:
We should probably begin to prepare in case this escalates. These demands are unhinged enough that I am now beginning to doubt that Russia is governed by rational actors who will avoid war with NATO. Russia has continuously escalated and done a bunch of shit by this point.
We probably need to discuss whether to adopt Russia's shadow-war strategies in the coming months and adopt a policy of assassinations while gaslighting Russia over it and so on, such would be preferable to WW3. Impressing upon Russian generals and oligarchs that we are not going to capitulate and they had best get rid of Putin and his government and so on, perhaps negotiating with them in terms of "Well. I'm sure that given the situation, the freezing of your accounts could be lifted" and so on.
But I am now of the opinion that the Putin government needs to be brought down by any means short of that which will provoke war, and that we probably do need to be prepared for Russia to start a war.
You people are insane. NATO has put itself right on Russia's border - Russia is only demanding that an immediate threat to its existence be ended. The danger of war in Europe has always been created by NATO being aggressive and you people don't understand how close the world can be pushed to nuclear war by mindless expansion on NATO's part. The issue of this offer - which does not actually demand NATO "abandon" Eastern Europe (a place it has no right to be in the first place anyways), it only demands that NATO move its military farther away from Russia.
This would be a great agreement for deescalation and the fact that you, Ostroeuropa, want a nuclear war that would obliterate the human race greatly worries me.
Also, this agreement is not even an ultimatum! It's a bilateral agreement Russia proposed, they're not demanding with military force that anyone sign this.
by Orostan » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:53 pm
Ostroeuropa wrote:Orostan wrote:
You people are insane. NATO has put itself right on Russia's border - Russia is only demanding that an immediate threat to its existence be ended. The danger of war in Europe has always been created by NATO being aggressive and you people don't understand how close the world can be pushed to nuclear war by mindless expansion on NATO's part. The issue of this offer - which does not actually demand NATO "abandon" Eastern Europe (a place it has no right to be in the first place anyways), it only demands that NATO move its military farther away from Russia.
This would be a great agreement for deescalation and the fact that you, Ostroeuropa, want a nuclear war that would obliterate the human race greatly worries me.
Also, this agreement is not even an ultimatum! It's a bilateral agreement Russia proposed, they're not demanding with military force that anyone sign this.
NATO is a defensive alliance and has no function unless a member is attacked. How does the existence of NATO threaten nuclear war given that fact? You claim NATO is being aggressive. How is that possible in your view?
Is it simply that more nations are signing up to a defensive alliance that in no way obligates them to join offensive wars? How precisely is that aggression?
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.
Napoleon Bonaparte wrote:“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”
Cicero wrote:"In times of war, the laws fall silent"
by Orostan » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:54 pm
Prima Scriptura wrote:Orostan wrote:
You people are insane. NATO has put itself right on Russia's border - Russia is only demanding that an immediate threat to its existence be ended. The danger of war in Europe has always been created by NATO being aggressive and you people don't understand how close the world can be pushed to nuclear war by mindless expansion on NATO's part. The issue of this offer - which does not actually demand NATO "abandon" Eastern Europe (a place it has no right to be in the first place anyways), it only demands that NATO move its military farther away from Russia.
This would be a great agreement for deescalation and the fact that you, Ostroeuropa, want a nuclear war that would obliterate the human race greatly worries me.
Also, this agreement is not even an ultimatum! It's a bilateral agreement Russia proposed, they're not demanding with military force that anyone sign this.
NATO has every right to protect their member states, even if it borders Russia. Those member states do not want to be Russian satellite states again.
How many rubles are you paid per post?
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.
Napoleon Bonaparte wrote:“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”
Cicero wrote:"In times of war, the laws fall silent"
by HISPIDA » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:55 pm
by HISPIDA » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:58 pm
Orostan wrote:Hispida wrote:russia's not stupid enough to go against nato
russia has not been able to win a war against the west since 1945
they couldn't win a war against nato (which is why they backed out of cuba, berlin, etc) in the cold war and they definitely couldn't win a war against nato now
russia's a regional power; if russia is genuinely thinking about fighting nato then it's like uzbekistan thinking about fighting china
Have you considered that the USSR perhaps may not have wanted to obliterate humanity in a nuclear war? The question of a war in europe between the Warsaw Pact and NATO was never a question of who would win, it was how quickly NATO would lose. The Warsaw Pact outnumbered NATO heavily and there was no way for it to win a war. This is why NATO and the US tried to encircle the USSR with enemies.
by Antipatros » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:58 pm
Orostan wrote:Ostroeuropa wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/17/world/europe/russia-nato-security-deal.html
https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/rso/na ... ar_cache=Y
Russian Demands:
1. NATO forces and equipment to withdraw from Czechia, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Croatia, Montenegro and North Macedonia, as well and any forces stationed in non-member states such as military trainers in Ukraine.
2. No more NATO expansion, regardless of where in the world.
3. No NATO military exercises in Ukraine, Eastern Europe, Southern Caucuses and Central Asia.
-----------
My opinion:
We should probably begin to prepare in case this escalates. These demands are unhinged enough that I am now beginning to doubt that Russia is governed by rational actors who will avoid war with NATO. Russia has continuously escalated and done a bunch of shit by this point.
We probably need to discuss whether to adopt Russia's shadow-war strategies in the coming months and adopt a policy of assassinations while gaslighting Russia over it and so on, such would be preferable to WW3. Impressing upon Russian generals and oligarchs that we are not going to capitulate and they had best get rid of Putin and his government and so on, perhaps negotiating with them in terms of "Well. I'm sure that given the situation, the freezing of your accounts could be lifted" and so on.
But I am now of the opinion that the Putin government needs to be brought down by any means short of that which will provoke war, and that we probably do need to be prepared for Russia to start a war.
You people are insane. NATO has put itself right on Russia's border - Russia is only demanding that an immediate threat to its existence be ended. The danger of war in Europe has always been created by NATO being aggressive and you people don't understand how close the world can be pushed to nuclear war by mindless expansion on NATO's part. The issue of this offer - which does not actually demand NATO "abandon" Eastern Europe (a place it has no right to be in the first place anyways), it only demands that NATO move its military farther away from Russia.
This would be a great agreement for deescalation and the fact that you, Ostroeuropa, want a nuclear war that would obliterate the human race greatly worries me.
Also, this agreement is not even an ultimatum! It's a bilateral agreement Russia proposed, they're not demanding with military force that anyone sign this.
by Ostroeuropa » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:58 pm
Orostan wrote:Ostroeuropa wrote:
NATO is a defensive alliance and has no function unless a member is attacked. How does the existence of NATO threaten nuclear war given that fact? You claim NATO is being aggressive. How is that possible in your view?
Is it simply that more nations are signing up to a defensive alliance that in no way obligates them to join offensive wars? How precisely is that aggression?
NATO was formed before the Warsaw Pact to 'contain' Communism. NATO has never actually been a defensive alliance, all of its interventions and expansion and even its founding were offensive in nature. Every military alliance says it is defensive anyways, even Hitler framed his invasion of the USSR in 1941 in defensive terms.
When Russia sees countries like the Baltics join NATO and Ukraine threaten to it creates a security problem for them. NATO can say it is defensive all they want but the closer they push themselves to Russia and the more they intensify conflicts and try to overthrow governments like Belarus the more problems it causes Russia, who wants above all else a secure border.
Every military alliance says it is defensive anyways, even Hitler framed his invasion of the USSR in 1941 in defensive terms.
by Prima Scriptura » Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:00 pm
Orostan wrote:Prima Scriptura wrote:
NATO has every right to protect their member states, even if it borders Russia. Those member states do not want to be Russian satellite states again.
How many rubles are you paid per post?
You don't understand how close this brings us to nuclear war. You think Russia is this paper tiger you have been built up by the media to believe it is when Russia is one of the world's largest nuclear powers. NATO's expansion onto Russia's borders and it acting like offensive moves are defensive is a threat to humanity itself.
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