NATION

PASSWORD

The Invasion of Ukraine, Russia Threatens Finland/Sweden

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

What do?

NATO should decline these demands and begin preparing for WW3 to break out.
683
38%
NATO should decline these demands and hope it's fine and/or limited to the invasion of Ukraine.
360
20%
NATO should negotiate.
502
28%
NATO should accept these demands.
267
15%
 
Total votes : 1812

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Ostroeuropa
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Founded: Jun 14, 2006
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The Invasion of Ukraine, Russia Threatens Finland/Sweden

Postby Ostroeuropa » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:20 pm

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/17/worl ... -deal.html

https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/rso/na ... ar_cache=Y

Russian Demands:

1. NATO forces and equipment to withdraw from Czechia, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Croatia, Montenegro and North Macedonia, as well and any forces stationed in non-member states such as military trainers in Ukraine.

2. No more NATO expansion, regardless of where in the world.

3. No NATO military exercises in Ukraine, Eastern Europe, Southern Caucuses and Central Asia.


-----------

My opinion:
We should probably begin to prepare in case this escalates. These demands are unhinged enough that I am now beginning to doubt that Russia is governed by rational actors who will avoid war with NATO. Russia has continuously escalated and done a bunch of shit by this point.

We probably need to discuss whether to adopt Russia's shadow-war strategies in the coming months and adopt a policy of assassinations while gaslighting Russia over it and so on, such would be preferable to WW3. Impressing upon Russian generals and oligarchs that we are not going to capitulate and they had best get rid of Putin and his government and so on, perhaps negotiating with them in terms of "Well. I'm sure that given the situation, the freezing of your accounts could be lifted" and so on.

But I am now of the opinion that the Putin government needs to be brought down by any means short of that which will provoke war, and that we probably do need to be prepared for Russia to start a war.

EDIT:

Russian Threats to Finland/Sweden

https://thehill.com/policy/internationa ... if-finland
https://www.tbsnews.net/world/finland-o ... rns-376246
https://eurasiantimes.com/russia-sends- ... raine-way/
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-threate ... on-1682715
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/ ... en-313696/
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:14 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Fiorina-Fury 161
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Postby Fiorina-Fury 161 » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:21 pm

Tell Putin to shove it up his ass.
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Prima Scriptura
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Postby Prima Scriptura » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:22 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/17/world/europe/russia-nato-security-deal.html

https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/rso/na ... ar_cache=Y

Russian Demands:

1. NATO forces and equipment to withdraw from Czechia, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Croatia, Montenegro and North Macedonia, as well and any forces stationed in non-member states such as military trainers in Ukraine.

2. No more NATO expansion, regardless of where in the world.

3. No NATO military exercises in Ukraine, Eastern Europe, Southern Caucuses and Central Asia.


-----------

We should probably begin to prepare in case this escalates. These demands are unhinged enough that I am now beginning to doubt that Russia is governed by rational actors who will avoid war with NATO.


So, Putin is trying to reform the eastern bloc. NATO isn’t going to listen to them whatsoever and they would be wise not to. NATO isn’t going to abandon their eastern members just because Putin and his idiotic Russian supremacy. Putin is obviously very mentally ill if he thinks he can take on NATO.
Last edited by Prima Scriptura on Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Goraria
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Postby Goraria » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:27 pm

Tbh in my eyes, this is probably an attempt for Russia to improve their influence in Eastern Europe and possibly weaken NATO so Russia would do their own thing without NATO interfering with their plans or some sort.

And I don’t think NATO is gonna accept that. Russia just wants to improve their influence with the Eastern European nations so they can get closer to Russia which would weaken NATO. Heck Russia would probably make a Soviet Union 2.0 if it wants to.
Last edited by Goraria on Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Prima Scriptura
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Postby Prima Scriptura » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:28 pm

Goraria wrote:Tbh in my eyes, this is probably an attempt for Russia to improve their influence in Eastern Europe and possibly weaken NATO so Russia would do their own thing without NATO interfering with their plans or some sort.


“improve their influence“ as them making them satellite states again. ;)
Last edited by Prima Scriptura on Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hispida
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Postby Hispida » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:36 pm

lmaooooooooo russia with the small dick energy

russia aint gonna do shit if nato just says "no"

russia can't win against nato and russia knows this
it's just power projection
Last edited by Hispida on Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:39 pm

Hispida wrote:lmaooooooooo russia with the small dick energy

russia aint gonna do shit if nato just says "no"

russia can't win against nato and russia knows this
it's just power projection


Are we able to take the risk that they won't do anything is the thing.

I'm not proposing we launch a pre-emptive strike.

I'm just saying that I think this demand is absurd and divorced from reality enough that i'm now concerned that they might think they can attack NATO and get away with it, because that is a similar level of divorced from reality. I think we need to be prepared for that possibility.
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Antipatros
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Postby Antipatros » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:42 pm

These are some seriously unhinged demands. It almost comes off as trolling.

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Goraria
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Postby Goraria » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:42 pm

Hispida wrote:lmaooooooooo russia with the small dick energy

russia aint gonna do shit if nato just says "no"

russia can't win against nato and russia knows this
it's just power projection

Russia knows it’s not gonna win against NATO but it sure is weakening it.
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Prima Scriptura
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.

Postby Prima Scriptura » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:42 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Hispida wrote:lmaooooooooo russia with the small dick energy

russia aint gonna do shit if nato just says "no"

russia can't win against nato and russia knows this
it's just power projection


Are we able to take the risk that they won't do anything is the thing.

I'm not proposing we launch a pre-emptive strike.

I'm just saying that I think this demand is absurd and divorced from reality enough that i'm now concerned that they might think they can attack NATO and get away with it, because that is a similar level of divorced from reality. I think we need to be prepared for that possibility.


If Putin attacks a NATO member state, then Putin is signing his death warrant. China is not going to have his back. China will most likely be neutral. Who will support him?
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Pro: Jesus, The Holy Bible, Constitutional Republic, representative democracy, efficient and comprehensive welfare state, paternalistic conservatism, civic nationalism, cannabis legalization, $15 an hour min.wage, religious liberty, Law & Order, police, death penalty, sensible reform of law enforcement, racial equity, peace through strength, NATO, EU
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Novo Reslas
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Postby Novo Reslas » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:43 pm

Oh please. The risk of nuclear war is too much for anyone to take on. Putin's absolutely insane if he thinks he can waltz in with the big guns and take on NATO with raw forces if they dare to refuse his demands.

But just in case, I'm making sure there's a fallout shelter nearby.
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Fiorina-Fury 161
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Postby Fiorina-Fury 161 » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:44 pm

Prima Scriptura wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Are we able to take the risk that they won't do anything is the thing.

I'm not proposing we launch a pre-emptive strike.

I'm just saying that I think this demand is absurd and divorced from reality enough that i'm now concerned that they might think they can attack NATO and get away with it, because that is a similar level of divorced from reality. I think we need to be prepared for that possibility.


If Putin attacks a NATO member state, then Putin is signing his death warrant. China is not going to have his back. China will most likely be neutral. Who will support him?


Yep, Russia needs China a lot more than China needs Russia.
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The Holy Therns
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Postby The Holy Therns » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:45 pm

Uh-huh. They can demand whatever they like, I think.
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Hispida
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Postby Hispida » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:47 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Hispida wrote:lmaooooooooo russia with the small dick energy

russia aint gonna do shit if nato just says "no"

russia can't win against nato and russia knows this
it's just power projection


Are we able to take the risk that they won't do anything is the thing.

I'm not proposing we launch a pre-emptive strike.

I'm just saying that I think this demand is absurd and divorced from reality enough that i'm now concerned that they might think they can attack NATO and get away with it, because that is a similar level of divorced from reality. I think we need to be prepared for that possibility.

russia's not stupid enough to go against nato

russia has not been able to win a war against the west since 1945

they couldn't win a war against nato (which is why they backed out of cuba, berlin, etc) in the cold war and they definitely couldn't win a war against nato now

russia's a regional power; if russia is genuinely thinking about fighting nato then it's like uzbekistan thinking about fighting the PRC

russia's main foreign policy shouldn't be nato antagonism; if anything, their foreign policy rn should be (if i was in charge of russia) supporting the NRF in afghanistan (and making iran back them), countering china in asia and europe, and expanding more influence over central asia. this is russia's prime time to fly under the radar the way the west is focused on the PRC
Last edited by Hispida on Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Orostan
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Postby Orostan » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:47 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/17/world/europe/russia-nato-security-deal.html

https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/rso/na ... ar_cache=Y

Russian Demands:

1. NATO forces and equipment to withdraw from Czechia, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Croatia, Montenegro and North Macedonia, as well and any forces stationed in non-member states such as military trainers in Ukraine.

2. No more NATO expansion, regardless of where in the world.

3. No NATO military exercises in Ukraine, Eastern Europe, Southern Caucuses and Central Asia.


-----------

My opinion:
We should probably begin to prepare in case this escalates. These demands are unhinged enough that I am now beginning to doubt that Russia is governed by rational actors who will avoid war with NATO. Russia has continuously escalated and done a bunch of shit by this point.

We probably need to discuss whether to adopt Russia's shadow-war strategies in the coming months and adopt a policy of assassinations while gaslighting Russia over it and so on, such would be preferable to WW3. Impressing upon Russian generals and oligarchs that we are not going to capitulate and they had best get rid of Putin and his government and so on, perhaps negotiating with them in terms of "Well. I'm sure that given the situation, the freezing of your accounts could be lifted" and so on.

But I am now of the opinion that the Putin government needs to be brought down by any means short of that which will provoke war, and that we probably do need to be prepared for Russia to start a war.


You people are insane. NATO has put itself right on Russia's border - Russia is only demanding that an immediate threat to its existence be ended. The danger of war in Europe has always been created by NATO being aggressive and you people don't understand how close the world can be pushed to nuclear war by mindless expansion on NATO's part. The issue of this offer - which does not actually demand NATO "abandon" Eastern Europe (a place it has no right to be in the first place anyways), it only demands that NATO move its military farther away from Russia.

This would be a great agreement for deescalation and the fact that you, Ostroeuropa, want a nuclear war that would obliterate the human race greatly worries me.

Also, this agreement is not even an ultimatum! It's a bilateral agreement Russia proposed, they're not demanding with military force that anyone sign this.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:49 pm

Orostan wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/17/world/europe/russia-nato-security-deal.html

https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/rso/na ... ar_cache=Y

Russian Demands:

1. NATO forces and equipment to withdraw from Czechia, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Croatia, Montenegro and North Macedonia, as well and any forces stationed in non-member states such as military trainers in Ukraine.

2. No more NATO expansion, regardless of where in the world.

3. No NATO military exercises in Ukraine, Eastern Europe, Southern Caucuses and Central Asia.


-----------

My opinion:
We should probably begin to prepare in case this escalates. These demands are unhinged enough that I am now beginning to doubt that Russia is governed by rational actors who will avoid war with NATO. Russia has continuously escalated and done a bunch of shit by this point.

We probably need to discuss whether to adopt Russia's shadow-war strategies in the coming months and adopt a policy of assassinations while gaslighting Russia over it and so on, such would be preferable to WW3. Impressing upon Russian generals and oligarchs that we are not going to capitulate and they had best get rid of Putin and his government and so on, perhaps negotiating with them in terms of "Well. I'm sure that given the situation, the freezing of your accounts could be lifted" and so on.

But I am now of the opinion that the Putin government needs to be brought down by any means short of that which will provoke war, and that we probably do need to be prepared for Russia to start a war.


You people are insane. NATO has put itself right on Russia's border - Russia is only demanding that an immediate threat to its existence be ended. The danger of war in Europe has always been created by NATO being aggressive and you people don't understand how close the world can be pushed to nuclear war by mindless expansion on NATO's part. The issue of this offer - which does not actually demand NATO "abandon" Eastern Europe (a place it has no right to be in the first place anyways), it only demands that NATO move its military farther away from Russia.

This would be a great agreement for deescalation and the fact that you, Ostroeuropa, want a nuclear war that would obliterate the human race greatly worries me.

Also, this agreement is not even an ultimatum! It's a bilateral agreement Russia proposed, they're not demanding with military force that anyone sign this.


NATO is a defensive alliance and has no function unless a member is attacked. How does the existence of NATO threaten nuclear war given that fact? You claim NATO is being aggressive. How is that possible in your view?

Is it simply that more nations are signing up to a defensive alliance that in no way obligates them to join offensive wars? How precisely is that aggression?
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Orostan
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:50 pm

Hispida wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Are we able to take the risk that they won't do anything is the thing.

I'm not proposing we launch a pre-emptive strike.

I'm just saying that I think this demand is absurd and divorced from reality enough that i'm now concerned that they might think they can attack NATO and get away with it, because that is a similar level of divorced from reality. I think we need to be prepared for that possibility.

russia's not stupid enough to go against nato

russia has not been able to win a war against the west since 1945
they couldn't win a war against nato (which is why they backed out of cuba, berlin, etc) in the cold war and they definitely couldn't win a war against nato now
russia's a regional power; if russia is genuinely thinking about fighting nato then it's like uzbekistan thinking about fighting china

Have you considered that the USSR perhaps may not have wanted to obliterate humanity in a nuclear war? The question of a war in europe between the Warsaw Pact and NATO was never a question of who would win, it was how quickly NATO would lose. The Warsaw Pact outnumbered NATO heavily and there was no way for it to win a war. This is why NATO and the US tried to encircle the USSR with enemies.
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Prima Scriptura
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Founded: Nov 23, 2021
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Postby Prima Scriptura » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:51 pm

Orostan wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/17/world/europe/russia-nato-security-deal.html

https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/rso/na ... ar_cache=Y

Russian Demands:

1. NATO forces and equipment to withdraw from Czechia, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Croatia, Montenegro and North Macedonia, as well and any forces stationed in non-member states such as military trainers in Ukraine.

2. No more NATO expansion, regardless of where in the world.

3. No NATO military exercises in Ukraine, Eastern Europe, Southern Caucuses and Central Asia.


-----------

My opinion:
We should probably begin to prepare in case this escalates. These demands are unhinged enough that I am now beginning to doubt that Russia is governed by rational actors who will avoid war with NATO. Russia has continuously escalated and done a bunch of shit by this point.

We probably need to discuss whether to adopt Russia's shadow-war strategies in the coming months and adopt a policy of assassinations while gaslighting Russia over it and so on, such would be preferable to WW3. Impressing upon Russian generals and oligarchs that we are not going to capitulate and they had best get rid of Putin and his government and so on, perhaps negotiating with them in terms of "Well. I'm sure that given the situation, the freezing of your accounts could be lifted" and so on.

But I am now of the opinion that the Putin government needs to be brought down by any means short of that which will provoke war, and that we probably do need to be prepared for Russia to start a war.


You people are insane. NATO has put itself right on Russia's border - Russia is only demanding that an immediate threat to its existence be ended. The danger of war in Europe has always been created by NATO being aggressive and you people don't understand how close the world can be pushed to nuclear war by mindless expansion on NATO's part. The issue of this offer - which does not actually demand NATO "abandon" Eastern Europe (a place it has no right to be in the first place anyways), it only demands that NATO move its military farther away from Russia.

This would be a great agreement for deescalation and the fact that you, Ostroeuropa, want a nuclear war that would obliterate the human race greatly worries me.

Also, this agreement is not even an ultimatum! It's a bilateral agreement Russia proposed, they're not demanding with military force that anyone sign this.



NATO has every right to protect their member states, even if it borders Russia. Those member states do not want to be Russian satellite states again.

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I’m a Protestant Christian and American Patriot. 30 year-old male from MPLS, MN. Volcel with SSA.
Pro: Jesus, The Holy Bible, Constitutional Republic, representative democracy, efficient and comprehensive welfare state, paternalistic conservatism, civic nationalism, cannabis legalization, $15 an hour min.wage, religious liberty, Law & Order, police, death penalty, sensible reform of law enforcement, racial equity, peace through strength, NATO, EU
Anti: Satan, sin, anarchism, paleoconservatism, communism, libertarianism, fascism, ACAB, racism, populism, Trump(ism), Qanon, Putin, Xi, Taliban.
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Orostan
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Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:53 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Orostan wrote:
You people are insane. NATO has put itself right on Russia's border - Russia is only demanding that an immediate threat to its existence be ended. The danger of war in Europe has always been created by NATO being aggressive and you people don't understand how close the world can be pushed to nuclear war by mindless expansion on NATO's part. The issue of this offer - which does not actually demand NATO "abandon" Eastern Europe (a place it has no right to be in the first place anyways), it only demands that NATO move its military farther away from Russia.

This would be a great agreement for deescalation and the fact that you, Ostroeuropa, want a nuclear war that would obliterate the human race greatly worries me.

Also, this agreement is not even an ultimatum! It's a bilateral agreement Russia proposed, they're not demanding with military force that anyone sign this.


NATO is a defensive alliance and has no function unless a member is attacked. How does the existence of NATO threaten nuclear war given that fact? You claim NATO is being aggressive. How is that possible in your view?

Is it simply that more nations are signing up to a defensive alliance that in no way obligates them to join offensive wars? How precisely is that aggression?

NATO was formed before the Warsaw Pact to 'contain' Communism. NATO has never actually been a defensive alliance, all of its interventions and expansion and even its founding were offensive in nature. Every military alliance says it is defensive anyways, even Hitler framed his invasion of the USSR in 1941 in defensive terms.

When Russia sees countries like the Baltics join NATO and Ukraine threaten to it creates a security problem for them. NATO can say it is defensive all they want but the closer they push themselves to Russia and the more they intensify conflicts and try to overthrow governments like Belarus the more problems it causes Russia, who wants above all else a secure border.
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Orostan
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Postby Orostan » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:54 pm

Prima Scriptura wrote:
Orostan wrote:
You people are insane. NATO has put itself right on Russia's border - Russia is only demanding that an immediate threat to its existence be ended. The danger of war in Europe has always been created by NATO being aggressive and you people don't understand how close the world can be pushed to nuclear war by mindless expansion on NATO's part. The issue of this offer - which does not actually demand NATO "abandon" Eastern Europe (a place it has no right to be in the first place anyways), it only demands that NATO move its military farther away from Russia.

This would be a great agreement for deescalation and the fact that you, Ostroeuropa, want a nuclear war that would obliterate the human race greatly worries me.

Also, this agreement is not even an ultimatum! It's a bilateral agreement Russia proposed, they're not demanding with military force that anyone sign this.



NATO has every right to protect their member states, even if it borders Russia. Those member states do not want to be Russian satellite states again.

How many rubles are you paid per post?

You don't understand how close this brings us to nuclear war. You think Russia is this paper tiger you have been built up by the media to believe it is when Russia is one of the world's largest nuclear powers. NATO's expansion onto Russia's borders and it acting like offensive moves are defensive is a threat to humanity itself.
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
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Hispida
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Anarchy

Postby Hispida » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:55 pm

because i was bored and felt like it, here's a map for people who can't imagine it outright:

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Hispida
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Postby Hispida » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:58 pm

Orostan wrote:
Hispida wrote:russia's not stupid enough to go against nato

russia has not been able to win a war against the west since 1945
they couldn't win a war against nato (which is why they backed out of cuba, berlin, etc) in the cold war and they definitely couldn't win a war against nato now
russia's a regional power; if russia is genuinely thinking about fighting nato then it's like uzbekistan thinking about fighting china

Have you considered that the USSR perhaps may not have wanted to obliterate humanity in a nuclear war? The question of a war in europe between the Warsaw Pact and NATO was never a question of who would win, it was how quickly NATO would lose. The Warsaw Pact outnumbered NATO heavily and there was no way for it to win a war. This is why NATO and the US tried to encircle the USSR with enemies.

"how quickly nato would lose" lmfao
it's how quickly the ussr, and now russia, would fall apart

nato had and always will have the geographic, political, technological, and military advantage over the wpa, csto, and russia proper. the united states and france alone have the first and fifth highest military budgets in the world. russian equipment is woefully outdated; their latest tank is from 1993 and their latest (notable and sizable) fighter is from 2013; that's nearly a decade (three in the tank department), which is huge

russia's only advantage over nato is nuclear warhead count; even then, russia wouldn't fire them because putin isn't an idiot. russia has no advantage over nato and i'd argue it never did after korea
Last edited by Hispida on Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
chilling, vibing, doing hot girl shit
i now have a basic overview factbook
christian, marxist-leninist, ace/aro demiboy. he/they
"Like a blind puppy sniffing at random first in one direction and then in another"
"Mr. 'Muddleheaded Counsellor'!"
"It sounds just like he were chewing rags in his sleep!"
"Thanks to such a fraud"
"he utterly fails to understand"
"This windbag"
"inevitably proves to be a lackey of the bourgeoisie"
"Kautsky has beaten the world record in the liberal distortion of Marx"
Victory Day: February 23, 2022
free our man south reinkalistan!!!

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Antipatros
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Founded: Aug 26, 2021
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Antipatros » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:58 pm

Orostan wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/17/world/europe/russia-nato-security-deal.html

https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/rso/na ... ar_cache=Y

Russian Demands:

1. NATO forces and equipment to withdraw from Czechia, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Croatia, Montenegro and North Macedonia, as well and any forces stationed in non-member states such as military trainers in Ukraine.

2. No more NATO expansion, regardless of where in the world.

3. No NATO military exercises in Ukraine, Eastern Europe, Southern Caucuses and Central Asia.


-----------

My opinion:
We should probably begin to prepare in case this escalates. These demands are unhinged enough that I am now beginning to doubt that Russia is governed by rational actors who will avoid war with NATO. Russia has continuously escalated and done a bunch of shit by this point.

We probably need to discuss whether to adopt Russia's shadow-war strategies in the coming months and adopt a policy of assassinations while gaslighting Russia over it and so on, such would be preferable to WW3. Impressing upon Russian generals and oligarchs that we are not going to capitulate and they had best get rid of Putin and his government and so on, perhaps negotiating with them in terms of "Well. I'm sure that given the situation, the freezing of your accounts could be lifted" and so on.

But I am now of the opinion that the Putin government needs to be brought down by any means short of that which will provoke war, and that we probably do need to be prepared for Russia to start a war.


You people are insane. NATO has put itself right on Russia's border - Russia is only demanding that an immediate threat to its existence be ended. The danger of war in Europe has always been created by NATO being aggressive and you people don't understand how close the world can be pushed to nuclear war by mindless expansion on NATO's part. The issue of this offer - which does not actually demand NATO "abandon" Eastern Europe (a place it has no right to be in the first place anyways), it only demands that NATO move its military farther away from Russia.

This would be a great agreement for deescalation and the fact that you, Ostroeuropa, want a nuclear war that would obliterate the human race greatly worries me.

Also, this agreement is not even an ultimatum! It's a bilateral agreement Russia proposed, they're not demanding with military force that anyone sign this.


"Also, this agreement is not even an ultimatum! It's a bilateral agreement Russia proposed, they're not demanding with military force that anyone sign this."

And NATO has rightfully rejected it. As much as Putin wants to relitigate the last 30 years of history, things are not going back to the way they were in the Soviet times. Russia can pound sand and take out its revanchist anger on defenseless countries in its near abroad.
Last edited by Antipatros on Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:00 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Ostroeuropa
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Posts: 56862
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:58 pm

Orostan wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
NATO is a defensive alliance and has no function unless a member is attacked. How does the existence of NATO threaten nuclear war given that fact? You claim NATO is being aggressive. How is that possible in your view?

Is it simply that more nations are signing up to a defensive alliance that in no way obligates them to join offensive wars? How precisely is that aggression?

NATO was formed before the Warsaw Pact to 'contain' Communism. NATO has never actually been a defensive alliance, all of its interventions and expansion and even its founding were offensive in nature. Every military alliance says it is defensive anyways, even Hitler framed his invasion of the USSR in 1941 in defensive terms.

When Russia sees countries like the Baltics join NATO and Ukraine threaten to it creates a security problem for them. NATO can say it is defensive all they want but the closer they push themselves to Russia and the more they intensify conflicts and try to overthrow governments like Belarus the more problems it causes Russia, who wants above all else a secure border.


Right. They formed to ensure that the USSR didn't invade its neighbors and contain their expansion.

Which interventions do you claim were aggressive?

I'm not taking your "Expansion" point at all seriously. People can join a defensive pact. No country has been invaded to force them to join NATO. Nor has a country been invaded to force them to stay in NATO. (Oh look. Soviet Tanks in Prague and Budapest. None in Paris though.).

Every military alliance says it is defensive anyways, even Hitler framed his invasion of the USSR in 1941 in defensive terms.


Right. Except in NATO's charter that's the explicit legal framework and no nation can compel another, so there we go. Meanwhile, Russia is clutching pearls and has invaded its neighbors repeatedly under the Putin regime, annexing territory and picking fights, and is now wailing about "Needing to defend itself" from NATO. I think you've got your accusation of bad faith backwards here.

What is the problem with the baltics joining NATO? Does Russia intend to annex the baltics? If not, then there's no problem.

Which governments has NATO overthrown?

Mate. I think you're seriously confused and don't understand the difference between NATO and the CIA. I imagine Russian propoganda has rotted your capacity to tell the difference between "A member of NATO did this" (Specifically, the US) and "NATO did this.". You may as well accuse the olympic committee of overthrowing governments.

If Russia were to come out and say "Please disband the CIA because it's fucked and it scares us" there would be zero chance of it happening, but they'd have a lot more sympathy from the rest of Europe and even most Americans.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Prima Scriptura
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Founded: Nov 23, 2021
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Prima Scriptura » Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:00 pm

Orostan wrote:
Prima Scriptura wrote:

NATO has every right to protect their member states, even if it borders Russia. Those member states do not want to be Russian satellite states again.

How many rubles are you paid per post?

You don't understand how close this brings us to nuclear war. You think Russia is this paper tiger you have been built up by the media to believe it is when Russia is one of the world's largest nuclear powers. NATO's expansion onto Russia's borders and it acting like offensive moves are defensive is a threat to humanity itself.


You right, I don’t listen to Kermlin propaganda because I’m not a anti-western misanthropist. Russian’s borders don’t include Estonia and Latvia. And they certainly don’t include former members of the Warsaw pac. These are sovereign countries. Russia has NO right to invade them.
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