NATION

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UK Politics Thread IX: Try turning the UK off and on again.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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The proposals to end the BBC licence fee agreement are:

An excellent idea; the socialists at the BBC have leeched off the British public for far too long.
4
7%
An idea I'm open to discussing, though I have reservations about the timing and the specifics.
4
7%
A bad idea as framed; I'm open to reform of BBC funding, but not like this, and not now.
7
12%
A terrible idea that the government is using to advance a cynical culture war agenda to save Johnson's skin.
24
42%
I have an altar to Sir David Attenborough in my living room and have watched every episode of Dr Who.
7
12%
Wait... you Brits actually have to pay for a TV licence?
11
19%
 
Total votes : 57

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-Astoria-
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Postby -Astoria- » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:22 am

Hukhalia wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:Complete and total shutdown on all Pakistani immigration until the left comes up with a better solution.

better solution: send all the pakistanis to ostro's town/area

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Postby Hukhalia » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:25 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Hukhalia wrote:better solution: send all the pakistanis to ostro's town/area


So to be clear, your best response is spite and lashing out. Much like the constant screams of "Racism" by people when their bizarre death-culty project to undermine western civilization and harm white people is criticized.

actually i was just taking the piss

this is an attitude symptomatic of the right, actually -- i take a light-hearted jab at you, and you immediately accused me of death cultism, undermining western civilisation, and harming white people. if anything, you're the one engaging in spite and lashing-out.

Ostroeuropa wrote:Not all cultures are equal.
Not all cultures are desirable.
Not all cultures need to be tolerated.
We do not have to subject ourselves to them merely because your equality fetishism has caused you to be in denial of reality.

i'm perfectly aware that "culture" - though not as the neat, categorical thing you see it as, but the nebulous, hazy, and ever-changing thing it actually is - can determine a lot of things. i agree, anyway -- the present western culture of liberal indifference towards the monstrous systems of exploitation that govern the imperial system, for instance, is far inferior to socialist culture of solidarity and mutual co-operation.
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:28 am

Hukhalia wrote:i'm perfectly aware that "culture" - though not as the neat, categorical thing you see it as, but the nebulous, hazy, and ever-changing thing it actually is - can determine a lot of things. i agree, anyway -- the present western culture of liberal indifference towards the monstrous systems of exploitation that govern the imperial system, for instance, is far inferior to socialist culture of solidarity and mutual co-operation.


Cooperation with cultures that normalize rape gangs? Or is this just you trying to change the discussion.
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Postby Hukhalia » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:31 am

-Astoria- wrote:
Hukhalia wrote:better solution: send all the pakistanis to ostro's town/area

A Home Secretary nomination in the making.

i don't hate poor people and minorities enough, i'd never get the job

Ostroeuropa wrote:What alternative proposal do you have exactly?

the current means by which variable capital in the form of migrant labour is exported around the world for easier exploitation is actually advantageous to the present ruling authorities, i'm not really a fan of immigration as it presently occurs -- however blind xenophobia towards peoples on the basis of negative actions by certain elements of their culture is not really the way to properly address this.

Ostroeuropa wrote:Cooperation with cultures that normalize rape gangs? Or is this just you trying to change the discussion.

the idea that you immediately think "rape gang" when you hear "pakistani culture" is honestly disgusting -- of course the handling of said rape gangs was appalling and unjustifiable, but it is entirely possible to reconcile the greater pakistani culture - which really has nothing to do with rape gangs - and have it operate within a secular context. millions of pakistanis are productive and functioning citizens of this country; you, as i presume a british patriot, should respect them for that.
Last edited by Hukhalia on Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:38 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:38 am

Hukhalia wrote:the current means by which variable capital in the form of migrant labour is exported around the world for easier exploitation is actually advantageous to the present ruling authorities, i'm not really a fan of immigration as it presently occurs -- however blind xenophobia towards peoples on the basis of negative actions by certain elements of their culture is not really the way to properly address this.


I'm fine with reforming the economy to be socialist.

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Hukhalia wrote:Cooperation with cultures that normalize rape gangs? Or is this just you trying to change the discussion.

the idea that you immediately think "rape gang" when you hear "pakistani culture" is honestly disgusting[/quote]

There's the performative outrage at reality being noticed that I expected.

-- of course the handling of said rape gangs was appalling and unjustifiable, but it is entirely possible to reconcile the greater pakistani culture -


Not really. Islam is a sexist and segregationist religion and the particular cultural tensions of Pakistan bring its worst elements to the forefront. (Male muslims can marry outside Islam, Female muslims can only marry Muslims. It is not shocking this produces a particular viewpoint about non-muslim women.). Rape gangs are an inevitable consequence of Pakistani culture in the same way that Epstein Island was an inevitable outcome of Capitalism.

Systems produce outcomes. Cultures are systems.

which really has nothing to do with rape gangs - and have it operate within a secular context. millions of pakistanis are productive and functioning citizens of this country; you, as i presume a british patriot, should respect them for that.


The issue is that the overall culture produces these extremes in large numbers.

A room filled with water up to 6 foot 6 will drown anyone beneath it. Those taller than that are fine.

But we wouldn't pretend "But that's similar to the other room where the water is up to 5 foot 6.", because it just straightforwardly isn't in terms of impact.

There is far more racism, tribalism, misogyny, and justification for rape in terms of memetic contagion in pakistani and islamic culture. The waterline is simply worse and clearly past a tipping point.

So they have disproportionate numbers of organized rape gangs, disproportionate numbers of rapists, disproportionate numbers of wife beaters, and casual misogynists, and so on.

And you can turn to me and say "But, not every Pakistani is awful" and I can tell you "Sure. Not every Pakistani is shorter than 6 foot 6. What exactly do you think you're contributing here?".

We can fairly conclusively say the problem is Pakistani culture. Pakistani's trying to have their own "Communities" ensures this continues unabated. Especially since we let them have religious schools and so on.

You tell me that there's a bunch of them living and working here. I can accept that. I can also accept the reality that they are, generally speaking, not "6 foot 6" and will be below the waterline.

The dregs of British society are comparable to the Average Pakistani. While exceptional Pakistani's may be our equals, that is hardly worth consideration. And the numbers bare this out.

I'm tired of pretending they don't. A culture that had ritualistic huffing of paint being expected to produce citizens of equal quality to the rest of us would be fairly straightforward to see the problem with.

Well. My friend.

Culture is a hell of a drug.

We have attitudes surveys to tell us as much. The number who think gay people are acceptable was so low that it was within the margin of error. Half of them think they should go to prison.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... sharia-law

And the progressive response is to ramble about how homophobes also exist among Britons. But remember the waterline, and remember this;
The dregs of British society are comparable to the Average Pakistani. While exceptional Pakistani's may be our equals, that is hardly worth consideration. And the numbers bare this out.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:48 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:39 am

what's nationalism + racism + "socialism"?

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Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:42 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:what's nationalism + racism + "socialism"?


There is nothing racist about recognizing cultures are not equal.
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Postby -Astoria- » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:45 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:what's nationalism + racism + "socialism"?

Ethnonationalism with socialist characteristics, maybe?
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:47 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:what's nationalism + racism + "socialism"?


There is nothing racist about recognizing cultures are not equal.

it's ok ostro. if you want to live in a country where the leadership hates the xenos there's always PRC.

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Postby Celritannia » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:50 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
There is nothing racist about recognizing cultures are not equal.

it's ok ostro. if you want to live in a country where the leadership hates the xenos there's always PRC.


Or Japan.

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Postby Vassenor » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:51 am

If cultures are not equal, who gets to decide what culture is "superior" and what metric are they using to do so?
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Postby The Nihilistic view » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:51 am

Hukhalia wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
So to be clear, your best response is spite and lashing out. Much like the constant screams of "Racism" by people when their bizarre death-culty project to undermine western civilization and harm white people is criticized.

actually i was just taking the piss

this is an attitude symptomatic of the right, actually -- i take a light-hearted jab at you, and you immediately accused me of death cultism, undermining western civilisation, and harming white people. if anything, you're the one engaging in spite and lashing-out.

Ostroeuropa wrote:Not all cultures are equal.
Not all cultures are desirable.
Not all cultures need to be tolerated.
We do not have to subject ourselves to them merely because your equality fetishism has caused you to be in denial of reality.

i'm perfectly aware that "culture" - though not as the neat, categorical thing you see it as, but the nebulous, hazy, and ever-changing thing it actually is - can determine a lot of things. i agree, anyway -- the present western culture of liberal indifference towards the monstrous systems of exploitation that govern the imperial system, for instance, is far inferior to socialist culture of solidarity and mutual co-operation.


Oh I think there was plenty of mutual cooperation going on in Hull.
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:52 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
There is nothing racist about recognizing cultures are not equal.

it's ok ostro. if you want to live in a country where the leadership hates the xenos there's always PRC.


It's not all or nothing you realize. You seem terrified of the idea that if we recognize not all cultures are equal and some are undesirable and have no place in society, and take moves against them, then it's the end of diversity.

Let's put this to an analogy.
A defense of the plate full of literal dogshit being included in the otherwise decent buffet because you think if we remove it, eventually, it'll just be plate after plate of chips.

No mate. I'm fine with diversity.

Much like I'm fine with people having more than one sexual partner. That doesn't imply some brave new world escapade where we sleep with *everybody who asks*. We're allowed to have standards dude.

That's all i'm asking for. Not an ethnostate, not an endless buffet of chips, not the institution of "ONE MAN ONE WOMAN" monogamy. Just some basic standards.

Now, is Pakistani culture as bad as those examples? No. But hopefully it gets the point across to you that you're being absurd.
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:52 am

At least this time he has restricted himself to merely denigrating Pakistanis and not like last time put every Asian in his hate-basket.

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Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:53 am

Vassenor wrote:If cultures are not equal, who gets to decide what culture is "superior" and what metric are they using to do so?


Arbitrary majoritarianism on the simple basis that this is our country and we don't have another one in which to practice our preferences.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:54 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:it's ok ostro. if you want to live in a country where the leadership hates the xenos there's always PRC.


It's not all or nothing you realize. You seem terrified of the idea that if we recognize not all cultures are equal and some are undesirable and have no place in society, and take moves against them, then it's the end of diversity.

Let's put this to an analogy.
A defense of the plate full of literal dogshit being included in the otherwise decent buffet because you think if we remove it, eventually, it'll just be plate after plate of chips.

No mate. I'm fine with diversity.

Much like I'm fine with people having more than one sexual partner. That doesn't imply some brave new world escapade where we sleep with *everybody who asks*. We're allowed to have standards dude.

That's all i'm asking for. Not an ethnostate, not an endless buffet of chips, not the institution of "ONE MAN ONE WOMAN" monogamy. Just some basic standards.

Now, is Pakistani culture as bad as those examples? No. But hopefully it gets the point across to you that you're being absurd.

My fucks in 2021 extends to five things, and none of them include listening to you trying to justify what you are selling.

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Postby Hukhalia » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:57 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:Not really. Islam is a sexist and segregationist religion and the particular cultural tensions of Pakistan bring its worst elements to the forefront. Rape gangs are an inevitable consequence of Pakistani culture in the same way that Epstein Island was an inevitable outcome of Capitalism.

Systems produce outcomes. Cultures are systems.

this is a rigidly, strictly deterministic approach which fails to account for how individual systems do not have outcomes on their own -- they have systemic outcomes based upon how they interact with other systems depending upon the context of such an interaction. these rape gangs were not a symptom of mere "pakistani culture" -- they were a symptom of how a certain element of islamic migration interacted with the social climate of the uk within the context of such migration. this is not an indictment of pakistani culture itself, which is in fact separable from these instances (unless you want to claim every cultural pakistani thinks rape is good); it is furthermore not an indictment of islam as islam is perfectly capable of functioning within a reformed context, as has been proven. what it shows us is that the manner by which we are inviting and welcoming immigrants into the country is in fact the root of this issue. people are coming to this country which operates within certain norms and then operating along the lines of their own internal cultural contexts; this provides a certain degree of conflict. to me, you, and in fact most south asians in britain, the rape gangs did something horrible. to the rape gangs, they did something entirely legitimate.

it is very easy to analyse and dissect this upon a basis of moral outrage (moral outrage is quite understandable, by the way, because of course rape is horrible) because that's a very easy way to mobilise public opinion; it makes good news headlines, and justifies our more primal, tribal side. considering our society is contextualised within capital, it also gives us an outlet for our rage at systemic issues rather than blaming capital; which is great news for the people who write headlines, facilitate this migration, et cetera because indeed these issues find capital at their route, exploitation the principal contradiction of our society. however the fundamental analysis should look at how people interact, how cultures interact, and what we can draw from this. ultimately we see the contradiction between two differing modes of living lives, and conflict emerging (though again, i am fairly certain the sympathy for those rape gangs does not really compose enough pakistanis to consider it an integral part of pakistani culture); the reconciliation of this should not be through mobilising popular anger against the other, but through understanding the integral elements of pakistani culture and how to make it function within the context of british society. currently, we're bringing them from their home country because said country is a shithole (no small thanks to britain and the west at large, mind you), for the purpose of exploiting their labour. this obviously is a haphazard and ultimately ruinous process as it leads to the aforementioned cultural clashes through failing to account for the contradictions it wreaks.

we should instead, rather than mobilising opinion against other cultures and nationalities - a rather reactionary attitude which can only serve to empower the present authorities which must be toppled - understand the exploitative processes which have brought them here, the manner by which, and the context under which, they have been brought here and how this leads to culture clash. only then can this issue be resolved and the direction of the masses be pointed outwards, towards their real oppressors, rather than self-constructed spectres that we conceive in "the other".
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Postby The Nihilistic view » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:58 am

Vassenor wrote:If cultures are not equal, who gets to decide what culture is "superior" and what metric are they using to do so?


What you have essentially just inferred here is you can't call out, racist, homophopic, transphobic abuse including that due to religious interpretation among others because we can't decide what culture is morally superior.
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:01 pm

Hukhalia wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:Not really. Islam is a sexist and segregationist religion and the particular cultural tensions of Pakistan bring its worst elements to the forefront. Rape gangs are an inevitable consequence of Pakistani culture in the same way that Epstein Island was an inevitable outcome of Capitalism.

Systems produce outcomes. Cultures are systems.

this is a rigidly, strictly deterministic approach which fails to account for how individual systems do not have outcomes on their own -- they have systemic outcomes based upon how they interact with other systems depending upon the context of such an interaction. these rape gangs were not a symptom of mere "pakistani culture" -- they were a symptom of how a certain element of islamic migration interacted with the social climate of the uk within the context of such migration. this is not an indictment of pakistani culture itself, which is in fact separable from these instances (unless you want to claim every cultural pakistani thinks rape is good); it is furthermore not an indictment of islam as islam is perfectly capable of functioning within a reformed context, as has been proven. what it shows us is that the manner by which we are inviting and welcoming immigrants into the country is in fact the root of this issue. people are coming to this country which operates within certain norms and then operating along the lines of their own internal cultural contexts; this provides a certain degree of conflict. to me, you, and in fact most south asians in britain, the rape gangs did something horrible. to the rape gangs, they did something entirely legitimate.

it is very easy to analyse and dissect this upon a basis of moral outrage (moral outrage is quite understandable, by the way, because of course rape is horrible) because that's a very easy way to mobilise public opinion; it makes good news headlines, and justifies our more primal, tribal side. considering our society is contextualised within capital, it also gives us an outlet for our rage at systemic issues rather than blaming capital; which is great news for the people who write headlines, facilitate this migration, et cetera because indeed these issues find capital at their route, exploitation the principal contradiction of our society. however the fundamental analysis should look at how people interact, how cultures interact, and what we can draw from this. ultimately we see the contradiction between two differing modes of living lives, and conflict emerging (though again, i am fairly certain the sympathy for those rape gangs does not really compose enough pakistanis to consider it an integral part of pakistani culture); the reconciliation of this should not be through mobilising popular anger against the other, but through understanding the integral elements of pakistani culture and how to make it function within the context of british society. currently, we're bringing them from their home country because said country is a shithole (no small thanks to britain and the west at large, mind you), for the purpose of exploiting their labour. this obviously is a haphazard and ultimately ruinous process as it leads to the aforementioned cultural clashes through failing to account for the contradictions it wreaks.

we should instead, rather than mobilising opinion against other cultures and nationalities - a rather reactionary attitude which can only serve to empower the present authorities which must be toppled - understand the exploitative processes which have brought them here, the manner by which, and the context under which, they have been brought here and how this leads to culture clash. only then can this issue be resolved and the direction of the masses be pointed outwards, towards their real oppressors, rather than self-constructed spectres that we conceive in "the other".


I view this as a very class reductionist view of the problem and quite simply do not agree with your suggestion that capital is entirely the problem here. I quite agree with you that reforming capital is absolutely crucial to resolving the crisis, but in my view it is a necessary but not sufficient step.

It also strikes me as akin to opposing any form of improving society at all, because "We should have a revolution instead".

We can in fact make moves towards both. We can fix the leak in the ship while conspiring to throw the captain overboard.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Hukhalia
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Postby Hukhalia » Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:17 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Hukhalia wrote:this is a rigidly, strictly deterministic approach which fails to account for how individual systems do not have outcomes on their own -- they have systemic outcomes based upon how they interact with other systems depending upon the context of such an interaction. these rape gangs were not a symptom of mere "pakistani culture" -- they were a symptom of how a certain element of islamic migration interacted with the social climate of the uk within the context of such migration. this is not an indictment of pakistani culture itself, which is in fact separable from these instances (unless you want to claim every cultural pakistani thinks rape is good); it is furthermore not an indictment of islam as islam is perfectly capable of functioning within a reformed context, as has been proven. what it shows us is that the manner by which we are inviting and welcoming immigrants into the country is in fact the root of this issue. people are coming to this country which operates within certain norms and then operating along the lines of their own internal cultural contexts; this provides a certain degree of conflict. to me, you, and in fact most south asians in britain, the rape gangs did something horrible. to the rape gangs, they did something entirely legitimate.

it is very easy to analyse and dissect this upon a basis of moral outrage (moral outrage is quite understandable, by the way, because of course rape is horrible) because that's a very easy way to mobilise public opinion; it makes good news headlines, and justifies our more primal, tribal side. considering our society is contextualised within capital, it also gives us an outlet for our rage at systemic issues rather than blaming capital; which is great news for the people who write headlines, facilitate this migration, et cetera because indeed these issues find capital at their route, exploitation the principal contradiction of our society. however the fundamental analysis should look at how people interact, how cultures interact, and what we can draw from this. ultimately we see the contradiction between two differing modes of living lives, and conflict emerging (though again, i am fairly certain the sympathy for those rape gangs does not really compose enough pakistanis to consider it an integral part of pakistani culture); the reconciliation of this should not be through mobilising popular anger against the other, but through understanding the integral elements of pakistani culture and how to make it function within the context of british society. currently, we're bringing them from their home country because said country is a shithole (no small thanks to britain and the west at large, mind you), for the purpose of exploiting their labour. this obviously is a haphazard and ultimately ruinous process as it leads to the aforementioned cultural clashes through failing to account for the contradictions it wreaks.

we should instead, rather than mobilising opinion against other cultures and nationalities - a rather reactionary attitude which can only serve to empower the present authorities which must be toppled - understand the exploitative processes which have brought them here, the manner by which, and the context under which, they have been brought here and how this leads to culture clash. only then can this issue be resolved and the direction of the masses be pointed outwards, towards their real oppressors, rather than self-constructed spectres that we conceive in "the other".


I view this as a very class reductionist view of the problem and quite simply do not agree with your suggestion that capital is entirely the problem here. I quite agree with you that reforming capital is absolutely crucial to resolving the crisis, but in my view it is a necessary but not sufficient step.

the pejorative of "class-reductionist" and the associated perceived lack of nuanced analysis it entails actually betrays a deep lack of nuanced analysis itself on behalf of those who use the term; mostly because "class-reductionist" in this case appears to conflate the fact that i consider exploitation of surplus value to be the principal contradiction of liberal society for its position at the core of capitalist production with an idea that this is indeed the only factor. i am merely asserting that productive systems are indeed the frame within which the rest of society is shaped, and therefore almost everything within our society is undertaken with the presupposition of its dominance and interests. therefore the means by which immigration is handled is principally concerned with the continued exploitation of global labour rather than making life better for both the immigrant and those of the nation the people are immigrating to.

the toppling of capital requires an intricate understanding of the interaction between cultures, how to reconcile cultures within the context of the broad socialist aim of solidarity between all oppressed peoples of the world, and how immigration as a function of capitalist society ties into all this. without that we will get nowhere and will be relegated to senseless chauvinistic nonsense.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:25 pm

Hukhalia wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
I view this as a very class reductionist view of the problem and quite simply do not agree with your suggestion that capital is entirely the problem here. I quite agree with you that reforming capital is absolutely crucial to resolving the crisis, but in my view it is a necessary but not sufficient step.

the pejorative of "class-reductionist" and the associated perceived lack of nuanced analysis it entails actually betrays a deep lack of nuanced analysis itself on behalf of those who use the term; mostly because "class-reductionist" in this case appears to conflate the fact that i consider exploitation of surplus value to be the principal contradiction of liberal society for its position at the core of capitalist production with an idea that this is indeed the only factor. i am merely asserting that productive systems are indeed the frame within which the rest of society is shaped, and therefore almost everything within our society is undertaken with the presupposition of its dominance and interests. therefore the means by which immigration is handled is principally concerned with the continued exploitation of global labour rather than making life better for both the immigrant and those of the nation the people are immigrating to.

the toppling of capital requires an intricate understanding of the interaction between cultures, how to reconcile cultures within the context of the broad socialist aim of solidarity between all oppressed peoples of the world, and how immigration as a function of capitalist society ties into all this. without that we will get nowhere and will be relegated to senseless chauvinistic nonsense.


My accusation of class reductionism stems from my noticing that you appear to think that while cultures cannot be reconciled under capitalism, something I agree with, you don't appear to have any answer for how that would happen under socialism beyond "It just would" and haven't elaborated, and furthermore, don't seem to even consider the possibility that even under global socialism, some cultures simply could not be reconciled.

If we were within reaching distance of socialism and you suggested to me "Why don't we put this on hold until after the revolution and see if we can reconcile" i'd be willing to go along with that, obviously.

What I can't see a justification for is the idea that we shouldn't attempt a non-conciliatory solution when the revolution doesn't appear in sight, and furthermore, the notion that we shouldn't consider authoritarian means even post-revolution as a possibly necessary outcome and plan for the eventuality.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Hukhalia
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Postby Hukhalia » Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:33 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Hukhalia wrote:the pejorative of "class-reductionist" and the associated perceived lack of nuanced analysis it entails actually betrays a deep lack of nuanced analysis itself on behalf of those who use the term; mostly because "class-reductionist" in this case appears to conflate the fact that i consider exploitation of surplus value to be the principal contradiction of liberal society for its position at the core of capitalist production with an idea that this is indeed the only factor. i am merely asserting that productive systems are indeed the frame within which the rest of society is shaped, and therefore almost everything within our society is undertaken with the presupposition of its dominance and interests. therefore the means by which immigration is handled is principally concerned with the continued exploitation of global labour rather than making life better for both the immigrant and those of the nation the people are immigrating to.

the toppling of capital requires an intricate understanding of the interaction between cultures, how to reconcile cultures within the context of the broad socialist aim of solidarity between all oppressed peoples of the world, and how immigration as a function of capitalist society ties into all this. without that we will get nowhere and will be relegated to senseless chauvinistic nonsense.


My accusation of class reductionism stems from my noticing that you appear to think that while cultures cannot be reconciled under capitalism, something I agree with, you don't appear to have any answer for how that would happen under socialism beyond "It just would" and haven't elaborated, and furthermore, don't seem to even consider the possibility that even under global socialism, some cultures simply could not be reconciled.

blind bigotry and superstition (note: this does not merely include negative elements of foreign cultures, but also the broad nigh-superstitious faith western culture assigns to the elected institutions which prop up the global imperial system) as a rule emerges from enforced scarcity and most importantly power dynamics. the continued empowerment of certain groups generally requires the subjugation of other groups by nature; this is due to how the entire concept of "relative" power requires relations of submissal and dominance. this applies on a microsocial level (individual instances of assault, rape, murder) as well as a macrosocial level (institutional racism, class relations, et cetera). with the abolition of the present power structures, it could be noted - not immediately, but over time - the newly-unleashed productive forces and social emancipation would render the scarcity and power dynamics which drove such instances obsolete on a systemic level. obviously there would be (a significantly reduced number of) isolated abuses due to this regardless, as one cannot totally domineer every microsocial event, but the broad strokes which have led to the present cultural clashes will have been eliminated.
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Postby Dakini » Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:43 pm

The Huskar Social Union wrote:'I was raped by 150 men': Young women claim grooming gang at large in Hull

One woman tells Sky News she was "sold into the sex trade" after she was first raped aged 13, with victims being threatened with weapons including a Taser and a hammer, but the culprits have not been prosecuted.

Sky News has spoken to three young women who have made serious allegations, naming their attackers, and providing documents to back up their stories. Two others have given supporting testimony.

Operation Marksman was wound down after a two-year investigation, with police telling the alleged victims they had exhausted all lines of inquiry.

But in their first TV interviews, the women at the centre of the case say they believe there was enough evidence to take it to court.

Sky News has been examining evidence provided by one young woman called Sarah (not her real name).

It includes photographs of texts from a man threatening to kill her if she does not come immediately and have sex with a number of men.

Sarah says at the age of 13 she was groomed by two men, and after two months one of them raped her.

She told Sky News: "He tried to kiss me, and I was like 'no get off', and he was like 'no, it's time for you to pay now for all the things we've given you'.

"Then he got on top of me and raped me, and I was just a powerless 13-year-old girl. Terrified."

He then took her to a block of flats.

Experts say junior members of gangs are sometimes paid to groom girls in this way.

In a spider graph Sarah later made for the police, she identifies 11 key players who came to the flat - the two groomers, the buyer and some of the regular gang members and clients.

She even numbers them and provides photos to help identify some of the men.

=CONTINUES=
There is a hell of a lot more in the article that you should read. As well as short videos about it. I hope women like this girl are able to get some justice in the end as this shit is happening far too fucking often on this scale especially with people from certain cultures such as from Pakistan where women are seen as nothing more than meat and needs to be dealt with.

Did I miss part of the article that discusses the ethnicity of the members of the grooming gang?

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Ostroeuropa
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:43 pm

Hukhalia wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
My accusation of class reductionism stems from my noticing that you appear to think that while cultures cannot be reconciled under capitalism, something I agree with, you don't appear to have any answer for how that would happen under socialism beyond "It just would" and haven't elaborated, and furthermore, don't seem to even consider the possibility that even under global socialism, some cultures simply could not be reconciled.

blind bigotry and superstition (note: this does not merely include negative elements of foreign cultures, but also the broad nigh-superstitious faith western culture assigns to the elected institutions which prop up the global imperial system) as a rule emerges from enforced scarcity and most importantly power dynamics. the continued empowerment of certain groups generally requires the subjugation of other groups by nature; this is due to how the entire concept of "relative" power requires relations of submissal and dominance. this applies on a microsocial level (individual instances of assault, rape, murder) as well as a macrosocial level (institutional racism, class relations, et cetera). with the abolition of the present power structures, it could be noted - not immediately, but over time - the newly-unleashed productive forces and social emancipation would render the scarcity and power dynamics which drove such instances obsolete on a systemic level. obviously there would be (a significantly reduced number of) isolated abuses due to this regardless, as one cannot totally domineer every microsocial event, but the broad strokes which have led to the present cultural clashes will have been eliminated.


I do not agree with your analysis and think that power over others for its own sake would continue to be pursued at both a micro and macrosocial level. You have asserted it wouldn't, and asserted it arises from a particular place, but not actually demonstrated it.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The feminism that only exists in feminists heads is real, and the feminism that impacts society isn't real.

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Hukhalia
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Founded: Aug 31, 2021
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Hukhalia » Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:44 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:I do not agree with your analysis and think that power over others for its own sake would continue to be pursued.

Hukhalia wrote:obviously there would be (a significantly reduced number of) isolated abuses due to this regardless, as one cannot totally domineer every microsocial event, but the broad strokes which have led to the present cultural clashes will have been eliminated.
Break eggs, make omelettes.
Be unreasonable. Get angry.
Marxist-Leninist reading resources
Evil tankie scum, red fascist, gravedigger of the revolution, &c.
Proudly illiberal.

In favour of: Communism, national liberation, class struggle, racial equality.
Against: Imperialism, the USA (+ its sphere of influence), liberalism, class collaboration, the culture war, fascism.

It's important to note that chaos is good and we need more of it.

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