[SUBMITTED] Breast Kept Secret?

[Terrabod]

Hi everyone, it's another draft from me - a little bit smutty this time, but don't say I didn't warn you. I'm not sure if this is the kind of thing the Issue Editors are looking for, but I hope at least reading this draft makes you smile during these challenging times. As always, thanks for taking a look and I appreciate your feedback! Bonus thanks to anyone that can tell me if the em dashes in option 2 will survive the submission form.

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Title:
Breast Kept Secret?

The Issue:
It's an unusual day at the office when on a short tea break a convoy of half-naked women is bundled past you by security officers. One of the disrobed dissidents promptly breaks free to give you a fierce dressing down.

VALIDITY: ADULT, valid for nations without high nudity

Option 1:
"No more persecution; let me show my bosom!" chants the subversive streaker, giving you both an earful and an eyeful. "Men go topless in @@NAME@@ year-round, rain or shine. Let women do the same – relax public decency laws so we too can enjoy a cool breeze when walking through the park on a summer's day. Nudity is not lewdity! You must free our mammaries!"

EFFECT: female @@DEMONYMPLURAL@@ often get funny looks on foreign holidays

Option 2:
"I'll tell you what's really breast — I mean, best — for women in @@NAME@@," splutters your Minister of Public Decency, frantically throwing an arm up in front of his eyes. "While idealism is all well and boob — uh, good — the hard truth is that a lady's two best friends are deeply sexualised tissues. A woman's tits — bits — and bobs must be left in the figurative bedroom to prevent inappropriate thoughts and behaviours; to protect women from overt objectification, transgressions should be met with teat — steep — fines."

EFFECT: the new MODESTY-360 rear-padlocked brassiere makes for challenging (but rewarding) foreplay

Option 3:
"I agree that showing too much flesh is a corruptive influence, but let's be more ambitious still," asserts Gladys Phlafly, devout mother-of-three and author of the bestseller A Woman's Place. "The sight of the unwashed masses exposing their obtrusive bellies and, heaven forbid, sweaty gluteal clefts is enough to make any devout mother-of-three worry that her children will be scarred for life. For the sake of morality, you must mandate that every citizen remains fully-clothed in public without exception."

EFFECT: seeing a bare ankle in the park provides material for many a feverish fantasy

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Title:
Breast Kept Secret?

The Issue:
It's an unusual day at the office when on a short tea break a convoy of half-naked women is bundled past you by security officers. One of the disrobed dissidents promptly breaks free to give you a fierce dressing down.

VALIDITY: ADULT, valid for nations without high nudity

Option 1:
"No more persecution; let me show my bosom!" chants the subversive streaker, giving you both an earful and an eyeful. "Men go topless in @@NAME@@ year-round, rain or shine. Let women do the same – relax public decency laws so we can also enjoy a cool breeze when walking through the park on a summer's day. Nudity is not lewdity! Release our racks!"

EFFECT: female @@DEMONYMPLURAL@@ often get funny looks on foreign holidays

Option 2:
"I'll tell you what's really breast–-I mean, best–-for women in @@NAME@@," splutters your Minister of Equality, frantically throwing an arm up in front of his eyes. "You should spend money tackling more important gender-based issues instead, like the pay gap and sexual harassment in the workplace. Besides, if you legalise this kind of explicit behaviour, what's next? Letting women expose themselves in public is just the tit-–tip-–of the iceberg."

EFFECT: the new MODESTY-3000 stainless steel rear-padlocked brassiere makes for challenging (but rewarding) foreplay

[Trotterdam]

Only two options? Besides, option 2 doesn't even address the issue. It doesn't give any sensible reason for supporting the double standard and then goes off to do something random and unrelated.

The way I see it, the options that make sense here are:
1. Both men and women should be allowed to go topless in public (rationale: freedom or whatever).
2. Both men and women should not be allowed to go topless in public (rationale: general prudishness).
3. There should be a double standard where showing male nipples is fine but showing female nipples is not (I really don't understand the logic behind this one, but it's currently the prevailing attitude in real life).
4. There should be a double standard where showing female nipples is fine but showing male nipples is not (from what I can tell, this is by far the least popular position in real life, and it's kind of hard to justify it, but maybe something to do with how female nipples actually serve a valid purpose in breastfeeding babies while male nipples are just embarrassing vestigial junk?).
If looking a little beyond strictly the issue of nipples, it's also possible to consider:
5. Topless? People should be allowed to go bottomless if they want! (The point here being not just accepting slightly looser standards, but rather that the government gets out of legislating acceptable exposure at all rather than nitpicking the exact dividing line.)
6. Even covering up the nipples isn't enough, we should ban any kind of midriff-baring too. (This probably goes too far beyond the scope of this issue, since we already have other other issues about modesty.)
Obviously 6 options is a bit much, so you don't need all of these, but you should have at least the first 3. And write them from the point of view of people who actually believe in them.

[Australian rePublic]

Option 2- Ban male toplessness
Option 3- require all women to wear traditional Islamic garmemts

[Baizou]

2. Both men and women should not be allowed to go topless in public (rationale: general prudishness).

5. Topless? People should be allowed to go bottomless if they want! (The point here being not just accepting slightly looser standards, but rather that the government gets out of legislating acceptable exposure at all rather than nitpicking the exact dividing line.)

These are my two favorite suggetsions from Trotterdam. Banning all toplessness (or allowing all -lessness) both feel like they fit NationStates issues' quirky approach to politics.

[Terrabod]

Thanks for your comments, folks. I address them below even though I've only quoted Trotterdam.

Only two options?

Eh, I wanted to keep things concise. Lots of drafts have six options where two will do.

Besides, option 2 doesn't even address the issue. It doesn't give any sensible reason for supporting the double standard and then goes off to do something random and unrelated.

This is actually one of the premier arguments against changing the status quo - essentially that there are far more important issues facing women and that the "Free the Nipple" campaign is a distraction. Proponents argue that women should be out on the street marching for equal pay or against sexual harassment instead of campaigning for something that won't radically change women's lives like the aforementioned campaigns will.

The way I see it, the options that make sense here are:
1. Both men and women should be allowed to go topless in public (rationale: freedom or whatever).

Ok, I've got this one already.

2. Both men and women should not be allowed to go topless in public (rationale: general prudishness).

I really like this one, so I'll try to incorporate it. I see that Aussie also approves!

3. There should be a double standard where showing male nipples is fine but showing female nipples is not (I really don't understand the logic behind this one, but it's currently the prevailing attitude in real life).

That's what I've got currently, but the way you've worded it is the dismiss button. I felt like I had to add an extra dimension to the status quo, therefore I included the part about spending money on the more pressing issues facing women in your nation.

4. There should be a double standard where showing female nipples is fine but showing male nipples is not (from what I can tell, this is by far the least popular position in real life, and it's kind of hard to justify it, but maybe something to do with how female nipples actually serve a valid purpose in breastfeeding babies while male nipples are just embarrassing vestigial junk?).

I think we're getting into the filler options here. I get that logically it's a position people could take regarding this issue but the great thing about issue writing is I don't need to have an option for everyone.

5. Topless? People should be allowed to go bottomless if they want! (The point here being not just accepting slightly looser standards, but rather that the government gets out of legislating acceptable exposure at all rather than nitpicking the exact dividing line.)

The issue isn't really about full nudity - that's not really in question here, because that's not a double standard. It's a rational choice for an extreme issue but it's a bit overdone in my opinion.

6. Even covering up the nipples isn't enough, we should ban any kind of midriff-baring too. (This probably goes too far beyond the scope of this issue, since we already have other other issues about modesty.)

Yup, I think this sort of extreme option is also overdone. Sorry Aussie, I appreciate your advice but the same goes for your burqa-type idea.

Obviously 6 options is a bit much, so you don't need all of these, but you should have at least the first 3.

I've already got two of the three, but will incorporate the third. The status quo option needs work, according to your comments, but I'm not really sure what work is needed. There's no way I can just have an option saying "keep things as they are - let men go shirtless but not women" because that's the dismiss button. It should be there, but there needs to be more to it than your suggestion. Perhaps I can have option 2 calling for harsher punishments for women who break public decency laws or something? What do you think?

And write them from the point of view of people who actually believe in them.

Ok, ouch. That's not very constructive. Try telling me what I can do to improve this aspect of the draft.

[Trotterdam]

This is actually one of the premier arguments against changing the status quo - essentially that there are far more important issues facing women and that the "Free the Nipple" campaign is a distraction. Proponents argue that women should be out on the street marching for equal pay or against sexual harassment instead of campaigning for something that won't radically change women's lives like the aforementioned campaigns will.

That might be a valid argument for protestors who need to put a lot of effort into convincing politicians into making a change. It's not a valid argument for @@LEADER@@, who can introduce such a simple law with a single signature. If this subject has already been deemed important enough to be the issue which reaches @@LEADER@@'s desk today, as opposed to the 1444 other issues which could also do so, then most of the logistical problems with implementing a change have already been overcome, and backing out now is silly.

Also, it's not just legal technicalities at stake here. Regardless of what the law says, it's simply a widespread belief among many people that showing nipples is okay for men but not women. Besides affecting what real people wear on hot days or at swimming pools, it's also obviously visible in art and movies, where topless men are regularly seen even in supposedly G-rated works (even though the artists clearly wouldn't have drawn them if they personally thought it was objectionable), while topless women are much less common even in higher-rated works where it would probably be legal. Heck, I've seen at least one artist who openly mocked the double standard (through the voice of a character), and yet still feels the need to uphold it in his own work, despite it being a self-published webcomic and therefore not beholden to any official ratings standards. I've seen characters discussing the validity of the double standard as obvious fact in text-only works where the author could easily have gotten away with saying "this character is naked" and not had it considered objectionable because there's no detail. It's clearly something that a large number of people believe in, not just something they're doing because the law says so and changing it would be too much work. Surely these people must have some reason for feeling that way.

Another corollary: even if female toplessness becomes officially legal, or if male toplessness becomes officially illegal, people will probably not notice and continue dressing according local unwritten standards of "social acceptability" for quite a while. Not like the police is going to regularly patrol streets to check if everyone is wearing a shirt.

3. There should be a double standard where showing male nipples is fine but showing female nipples is not (I really don't understand the logic behind this one, but it's currently the prevailing attitude in real life).

That's what I've got currently, but the way you've worded it is the dismiss button. I felt like I had to add an extra dimension to the status quo, therefore I included the part about spending money on the more pressing issues facing women in your nation.

It's unlikely that this issue is important enough to warrant tracking players' previous choices and having a separate reversal issue, so you can't actually assume that this is the status quo if the player is answering this issue for the second time.

Besides, even if it's widespread in real life, I'm really not happy with issues assuming that the single most stupid way of doing things is the current status quo in my nation, and not even giving me a way to permanently change it.

I think we're getting into the filler options here. I get that logically it's a position people could take regarding this issue but the great thing about issue writing is I don't need to have an option for everyone.

Fair.

[Terrabod]

This is actually one of the premier arguments against changing the status quo - essentially that there are far more important issues facing women and that the "Free the Nipple" campaign is a distraction. Proponents argue that women should be out on the street marching for equal pay or against sexual harassment instead of campaigning for something that won't radically change women's lives like the aforementioned campaigns will.

That might be a valid argument for protestors who need to put a lot of effort into convincing politicians into making a change. It's not a valid argument for @@LEADER@@, who can introduce such a simple law with a single signature. If this subject has already been deemed important enough to be the issue which reaches @@LEADER@@'s desk today, as opposed to the 1444 other issues which could also do so, then most of the logistical problems with implementing a change have already been overcome, and backing out now is silly.

Ah, that makes a lot of sense! I suppose that the other argument for maintaining the double standard is that whether we like it or not breasts are sexualised body parts (the question of that being purely a social construct is irrelevant) in a way the male chest isn't and therefore shouldn't be on display. I could have the character of option 2 advocate for this instead - it does seem like he could be a proponent of such an option. He might need to become the Minister of something else, though.

Also, it's not just legal technicalities at stake here. Regardless of what the law says, it's simply a widespread belief among many people that showing nipples is okay for men but not women. It's clearly something that a large number of people believe in, not just something they're doing because the law says so and changing it would be too much work. Surely these people must have some reason for feeling that way.

For sure, there are cultural barriers on top of legal or political barriers. I think although it's a double standard and it is sexist there are a lot of women who wouldn't support legalising female toplessness because of the above mentioned moral decency concerns.

Another corollary: even if female toplessness becomes officially legal, or if male toplessness becomes officially illegal, people will probably not notice and continue dressing according local unwritten standards of "social acceptability" for quite a while. Not like the police is going to regularly patrol streets to check if everyone is wearing a shirt.

True, although that's within the rights of the nation's women to decide - they may well continue as clothed as always but not having that double standard enshrined in law is still a victory. It's more about the choice to go topless in public instead of having no choice (unlike men, who can choose to go topless if they wish).

It's unlikely that this issue is important enough to warrant tracking players' previous choices and having a separate reversal issue, so you can't actually assume that this is the status quo if the player is answering this issue for the second time.

Besides, even if it's widespread in real life, I'm really not happy with issues assuming that the single most stupid way of doing things is the current status quo in my nation, and not even giving me a way to permanently change it.

I've had problems before with options that maintain the status quo in previous drafts, so I try to avoid it like the plague. Surely there needs to be something existing in law, though, because otherwise there's no double standard? If including a status quo option is acceptable here I'll do so, but if we don't assume that male toplessness is legal and female toplessness is illegal then why is there a dilemma here?

[Baizou]

I've had problems before with options that maintain the status quo in previous drafts, so I try to avoid it like the plague. Surely there needs to be something existing in law, though, because otherwise there's no double standard? If including a status quo option is acceptable here I'll do so, but if we don't assume that male toplessness is legal and female toplessness is illegal then why is there a dilemma here?

In theory, I suppose it could be the case that the streaking women in the issue are protesting social norms, not statutory law, and that security is escorting them out based more on toplessness being assumed to fall under some kind of public decency statute. You wouldn't need to spell that out all the way, of course, but that would open the possibility for the third option being passing a law to enforce a convention. Heck, maybe it could be an option that only appears to nations with low prudishness or high civil freedoms, or at least nations without the Prudish policy, suggesting the norm isn't law, and then someone could suggest, "Hey, let's make it a law so this doesn't happen again."

[Terrabod]

Hi folks! After a couple of months away, I've decided to get back into issue writing and revive this draft. I reread the existing feedback a couple of times and have produced a second draft accordingly. More specifically:

2. Both men and women should not be allowed to go topless in public (rationale: general prudishness).

Option 2- Ban male toplessness

Banning all toplessness (or allowing all -lessness) both feel like they fit NationStates issues' quirky approach to politics.

As promised some months ago, new option banning toplessness for everyone has been added alongside the existing "let everyone go topless" and "male toplessness only" options. For those who won't get the reference right away, Gladys Phlafly is a... homage... to Phyllis Schlafly.

That might be a valid argument for protestors who need to put a lot of effort into convincing politicians into making a change. It's not a valid argument for @@LEADER@@, who can introduce such a simple law with a single signature. If this subject has already been deemed important enough to be the issue which reaches @@LEADER@@'s desk today, as opposed to the 1444 other issues which could also do so, then most of the logistical problems with implementing a change have already been overcome, and backing out now is silly.

Ah, that makes a lot of sense! I suppose that the other argument for maintaining the double standard is that whether we like it or not breasts are sexualised body parts (the question of that being purely a social construct is irrelevant) in a way the male chest isn't and therefore shouldn't be on display. I could have the character of option 2 advocate for this instead - it does seem like he could be a proponent of such an option. He might need to become the Minister of something else, though.

This change has been made, and I think option 2 is all the better for it. As always, thanks for the guidance, Trotterdam!

Oh, and again I'd greatly appreciate information on whether em-dashes work when submitting issues.

[Baggieland]

Bonus thanks to anyone that can tell me if the em dashes in option 2 will survive the submission form.

They're fine, but there should be a space before and after each dash.

[Terrabod]

They're fine, but there should be a space before and after each dash.

Ok, cheers!

[Terrabod]

Just bumping this little firecracker because I think it's nearly ready - though an IE's thoughts on that would be ideal. As always, any comments from anyone are very much appreciated!

[Daarwyrth]

Breast Kept Secret?

Right from the get-go, an excellent title

"I'll tell you what's really breast — I mean, best — for women in @@NAME@@," splutters your Minister of Public Decency, frantically throwing an arm up in front of his eyes. "While idealism is all well and boob — uh, good — the hard truth is that a lady's two best friends are deeply sexualised tissues. A woman’s tits — bits — and bobs must be left in the figurative bedroom to prevent inappropriate thoughts and behaviours; to protect women from overt objectification, transgressions should be met with teat — steep — fines."

Amazing wordplay in this option. You'd expect it to get tedious after a while but I kept laughing each time, very creative and well done!

I went over it twice and the only thing that I could nitpick was this:

a convoy of half-naked women is bundled past you by security officers

It may just be me, but I feel that "a convoy of half-naked women is hustled along past you by security officers" would sound a teeny tiny bit better, but as I said it's a nitpick and largely based on personal preferences, I think. Great draft, very well done!

[Terrabod]

Right from the get-go, an excellent title

Cheers, haha.

Amazing wordplay in this option. You'd expect it to get tedious after a while but I kept laughing each time, very creative and well done!

I'm glad to hear it - I was worried it would interrupt the flow of the option (more than was intended, of course).

I went over it twice and the only thing that I could nitpick was this:

a convoy of half-naked women is bundled past you by security officers

It may just be me, but I feel that "a convoy of half-naked women is hustled along past you by security officers" would sound a teeny tiny bit better, but as I said it's a nitpick and largely based on personal preferences, I think. Great draft, very well done!

It is a nitpick! Bundled, hustled... I find them to be synonymous, but I wouldn't use "hustled" in my day-to-day life (unless I was talking about a scam), so I'd rather not change it to that. I can change it to some middle-ground word like "jostled" if "bundled" is a specific problem, but otherwise I like that "bundled" has connotations of the women being moved about like dirty laundry.

[Terrabod]

Didn't think it was worth making a whole new draft, but I caught a few remaining curved apostrophes and made a minor change to the effect line of Option 2 ("MODESTY-3000" to "MODESTY-360").

Next stop is moving this to last call!

[Brezzia]

If I may, I would like to suggest an option that could activate Nudism policy. Feel free to use it or change parts of it.

"Why only the top part!" exclaims the exhibitionist at the traffic lights near your office as he is asked not to take off his raincoat. "I love the breath of the wind that caresses my torso and my lower parts. The clothes are chains that prevent us from enjoying our most intimate freedom. After trying it, no one will be able to do without it!"
EFFECT: ergonomists monthly design new types of bicycle saddles.

[Terrabod]

If I may, I would like to suggest an option that could activate Nudism policy. Feel free to use it or change parts of it.

"Why only the top part!" exclaims the exhibitionist at the traffic lights near your office as he is asked not to take off his raincoat. "I love the breath of the wind that caresses my torso and my lower parts. The clothes are chains that prevent us from enjoying our most intimate freedom. After trying it, no one will be able to do without it!"
EFFECT: ergonomists monthly design new types of bicycle saddles.

Nice writing! Funnily enough, this point has already come up before:

If looking a little beyond strictly the issue of nipples, it's also possible to consider:
5. Topless? People should be allowed to go bottomless if they want!

... and has already been addressed:

The issue isn't really about full nudity - that's not really in question here, because that's not a double standard. It's a rational choice for an extreme issue but it's a bit overdone in my opinion.

But I do very much appreciate you taking the time to read and respond to my draft!

[Terrabod]

Moved this to last call.

All thoughts are welcome, especially those of an Editor.

[Apatosaurus]

feedback

"I'll tell you what's really breast — I mean, best — for women in @@NAME@@," splutters your Minister of Public Decency, frantically throwing an arm up in front of his eyes. "While idealism is all well and boob — uh, good — the hard truth is that a lady's two best friends are deeply sexualised tissues. A woman's tits — bits — and bobs must be left in the figurative bedroom to prevent inappropriate thoughts and behaviours; to protect women from overt objectification, transgressions should be met with teat — steep — fines."

Uh, you should get rid of the italics imo.

EFFECT: the new MODESTY-360 stainless steel rear-padlocked brassiere makes for challenging (but rewarding) foreplay

The effect line is also extremely... complex and clunky? You should change it.

Option 3:
"I agree that showing too much flesh is a corruptive influence, but let's be more ambitious still," asserts Gladys Phlafly, devout mother-of-three and author of the bestseller A Woman's Place. "The sight of the unwashed masses exposing their obtrusive bellies and, heaven forbid, sweaty gluteal clefts is enough to make any devout mother-of-three worry that her children will be scarred for life. For the sake of morality, you must mandate that every citizen remains fully-clothed in public without exception."

EFFECT: seeing a bare ankle in the park provides material for many a feverish fantasy

You should add something about religion to the effect line.

Overall, this issue looks very good!

[Terrabod]

feedback

Cheers!

Uh, you should get rid of the italics imo.

There is quite a substantial amount of italicisation in this option (compared to your average issue option), for sure. On balance, though, I think the functional effect of it here - to suggest the speaker is spluttering, interrupting himself and essentially choking on his own words - makes the level of italicisation justified.

The effect line is also extremely... complex and clunky? You should change it.

Yeah, I understand where you're coming from. Although the specificity contributes to the humour, I've simplified it to:

EFFECT: the new MODESTY-360 rear-padlocked brassiere makes for challenging (but rewarding) foreplay

That doesn't erode any of the meaning but it does cut the effect line down a little (any more and I think some of the meaning would be lost).

You should add something about religion to the effect line.

Eh, the option itself isn't heavily grounded in religion, even though it's probably implicit. The effect line itself is more to do with how if people are banned from showing any "potentially erotic" skin in public, then even a t-shirt riding up or a neckline or an ankle could be considered raunchy... and could later fuel some fantasies...

Overall, this issue looks very good!

That feeling when your magnum opus is the draft about bazongas.

[Daarwyrth]

Looking great! Well done

[Terrabod]

That's this draft submitted - thanks very much to everyone who offered their support and feedback!

[Bears Armed]

Good luck!

[Daarwyrth]

Good luck! I hope it gets accepted