by Comfed » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:07 pm
by Tinhampton » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:19 pm
by Comfed » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:27 pm
Tinhampton wrote:Is this an attempt to prevent Condemn Elite Leomonade from reaching queue? I'd note that Condemn The Communist Bloc got 168 approvals - of which 143 were gathered in the space of about two days.
by WayNeacTia » Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:54 pm
RiderSyl wrote:You'd really think that defenders would communicate with each other about this. I know they're not a hivemind, but at least some level of PR skill would keep Quebecshire and Quebecshire from publically contradicting eac
wait
by Reploid Productions » Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:04 pm
[violet] wrote:Maybe we could power our new search engine from the sexual tension between you two.
by Morover » Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:16 pm
by WayNeacTia » Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:20 pm
Reploid Productions wrote:The quorum limit is to my understanding less about pure quality control, and more about regulating the proposal backlog and making sure that stuff is regularly getting to the voting floor. Basically, if nothing is reaching quorum and there's a huge backlog of legal proposals, that means big gaps between actual votes and it's time to lower the threshold. If there are tons of legal proposals and all of them are getting to the voting floor, it may be time to raise the threshold.
While I doubt the techies would be on board for setting a hard threshold, it wouldn't be the first time they've raised or lowered the percentage, and that is certainly worth discussing.
RiderSyl wrote:You'd really think that defenders would communicate with each other about this. I know they're not a hivemind, but at least some level of PR skill would keep Quebecshire and Quebecshire from publically contradicting eac
wait
by Outer Sparta » Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:23 pm
Wayneactia wrote:It could be 200 and it wouldn’t matter. People will still get garbage to quorum if they throw enough money at it.
by Frisbeeteria » Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:26 pm
Wayneactia wrote:raise the price of stamps a little bit?
by Outer Sparta » Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:28 pm
Frisbeeteria wrote:Wayneactia wrote:raise the price of stamps a little bit?
We've talked about this on the recruiting side a bit, but I'm curious what WA stamp campaigners have to say. Maybe someone should open a topic on stamp pricing for both recruiting and campaigning. It can't be a mod or admin, as we would be seen as having too much of a vested interest (not true, but perception looks like reality). Anyone?
by Hulldom » Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:33 pm
Outer Sparta wrote:Frisbeeteria wrote:We've talked about this on the recruiting side a bit, but I'm curious what WA stamp campaigners have to say. Maybe someone should open a topic on stamp pricing for both recruiting and campaigning. It can't be a mod or admin, as we would be seen as having too much of a vested interest (not true, but perception looks like reality). Anyone?
Aren't there other way of campaigning without having to spend money on actual stamps?
by Refuge Isle » Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:55 pm
Hulldom wrote:Outer Sparta wrote:Aren't there other way of campaigning without having to spend money on actual stamps?
API. As someone who uses stamps, I think there's probably some merit in upping the price. But I would also question the wisdom in that when we have more than just 898 delegates.
I will say that the reason I use stamps is simply a lack of time to fool with API, it gives me a convenient way to get the message out quickly that I want/need approvals. I dare say that's the case for a lot, if not the majority, of us authors.
by Hulldom » Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:27 pm
Refuge Isle wrote:Hulldom wrote:API. As someone who uses stamps, I think there's probably some merit in upping the price. But I would also question the wisdom in that when we have more than just 898 delegates.
I will say that the reason I use stamps is simply a lack of time to fool with API, it gives me a convenient way to get the message out quickly that I want/need approvals. I dare say that's the case for a lot, if not the majority, of us authors.
I have done numerous campaigns entirely by hand. As mentioned, even if the price of doing a round of campaigning were increased by five times, it's still not particularly abundant effort to draft a joke/spam proposal and spend two hours sending out batches of eight to scarcely 900 delegates. Or fewer, if you only target the delegates most likely to approve any given proposal. There simply aren't a great number of delegates in total.
by Outer Sparta » Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:34 pm
Hulldom wrote:Refuge Isle wrote:I have done numerous campaigns entirely by hand. As mentioned, even if the price of doing a round of campaigning were increased by five times, it's still not particularly abundant effort to draft a joke/spam proposal and spend two hours sending out batches of eight to scarcely 900 delegates. Or fewer, if you only target the delegates most likely to approve any given proposal. There simply aren't a great number of delegates in total.
And more power to you. There are players like my selves who don't have the time to dedicate to that. And I'd be hard pressed to see what $0.50 for 100 would have in terms of an effect.
by WayNeacTia » Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:21 pm
Hulldom wrote:I will say that the reason I use stamps is simply a lack of time to fool with API, it gives me a convenient way to get the message out quickly that I want/need approvals. I dare say that's the case for a lot, if not the majority, of us authors.
Refuge Isle wrote:I have done numerous campaigns entirely by hand. As mentioned, even if the price of doing a round of campaigning were increased by five times, it's still not particularly abundant effort to draft a joke/spam proposal and spend two hours sending out batches of eight to scarcely 900 delegates. Or fewer, if you only target the delegates most likely to approve any given proposal. There simply aren't a great number of delegates in total.
Outer Sparta wrote:Using API and just simply having to campaign the manual way requires more time and effort than just buying a bunch of stamps and TGing that to each of the delegates. If I decided to write a low-effort resolution like the "Condemn Elite Lemonade" one, why would I waste actual money on stamps to get delegate approval when I know that there are rubber-stampers out there who approve literally everything?
RiderSyl wrote:You'd really think that defenders would communicate with each other about this. I know they're not a hivemind, but at least some level of PR skill would keep Quebecshire and Quebecshire from publically contradicting eac
wait
by Outer Sparta » Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:49 pm
Wayneactia wrote:Outer Sparta wrote:Using API and just simply having to campaign the manual way requires more time and effort than just buying a bunch of stamps and TGing that to each of the delegates. If I decided to write a low-effort resolution like the "Condemn Elite Lemonade" one, why would I waste actual money on stamps to get delegate approval when I know that there are rubber-stampers out there who approve literally everything?
Are the rubber stampers prolific enough though? We do have a new Jimmy Hart, but when looking at the queue, the same delegates don't always pop up. I'll be the first one to admit, I haven't done a significant amount of research on this, but I am willing to bet, enough of the less than stellar proposals bought their way into queue. Also the 200 comment was an over exaggeration. It does happen though, as Bitely taught us all too well. When he went as far as taking out ad space, he levelled up to a whole new realm.
by WayNeacTia » Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:00 pm
Outer Sparta wrote:Wayneactia wrote:Are the rubber stampers prolific enough though? We do have a new Jimmy Hart, but when looking at the queue, the same delegates don't always pop up. I'll be the first one to admit, I haven't done a significant amount of research on this, but I am willing to bet, enough of the less than stellar proposals bought their way into queue. Also the 200 comment was an over exaggeration. It does happen though, as Bitely taught us all too well. When he went as far as taking out ad space, he levelled up to a whole new realm.
Okay yeah, sometimes the rubber-stampers are not enough, which is when you take the campaigning into account so the rubber-stampers know that you actually submitted it. You don't need to make a good argument, just say "pls approve my proposal it'll make my day" and that's enough.
Outer Sparta wrote:Wayneactia wrote:It could be 200 and it wouldn’t matter. People will still get garbage to quorum if they throw enough money at it.
There are (as of right now) 898 regional delegates. Obviously there are lots of rubber-stamper delegates and due to the 6% threshold, it's very easy to get 50 delegates to approve your proposal. Considering how easy it is to reach quorum especially with minimal campaigning, a bump in the threshold wouldn't be a bad idea.
RiderSyl wrote:You'd really think that defenders would communicate with each other about this. I know they're not a hivemind, but at least some level of PR skill would keep Quebecshire and Quebecshire from publically contradicting eac
wait
by Outer Sparta » Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:09 pm
Wayneactia wrote:Outer Sparta wrote:Okay yeah, sometimes the rubber-stampers are not enough, which is when you take the campaigning into account so the rubber-stampers know that you actually submitted it. You don't need to make a good argument, just say "pls approve my proposal it'll make my day" and that's enough.
I have no doubt about that. What I was saying is that IF people are nudged more in the direction of manual campaigning, instead of throwing money at it, are they going to be more likely to campaign quite as hard for that proposal? Especially if it is being torn to shreds on the forums? Would the inconvenience outweigh the potential benefits?Outer Sparta wrote:There are (as of right now) 898 regional delegates. Obviously there are lots of rubber-stamper delegates and due to the 6% threshold, it's very easy to get 50 delegates to approve your proposal. Considering how easy it is to reach quorum especially with minimal campaigning, a bump in the threshold wouldn't be a bad idea.
Missed this one earlier. See this runs into a potential pitfall. The whole quorum raiding thing is still big drama right now. Raising the threshold then makes it harder to quorum raid a proposal, and it has been made clear by the the duly appointed representatives that they do not wish to interfere in that at this time. I'm not saying anyone would make such an accusation. But if made, it would be really hard to defend against it, and that is damn unfair.
by WayNeacTia » Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:27 pm
Outer Sparta wrote:Wayneactia wrote:I have no doubt about that. What I was saying is that IF people are nudged more in the direction of manual campaigning, instead of throwing money at it, are they going to be more likely to campaign quite as hard for that proposal? Especially if it is being torn to shreds on the forums? Would the inconvenience outweigh the potential benefits?
Missed this one earlier. See this runs into a potential pitfall. The whole quorum raiding thing is still big drama right now. Raising the threshold then makes it harder to quorum raid a proposal, and it has been made clear by the the duly appointed representatives that they do not wish to interfere in that at this time. I'm not saying anyone would make such an accusation. But if made, it would be really hard to defend against it, and that is damn unfair.
I would think they would campaign harder since the low-picking fruit methods would be harder to do or be more inconvenient. If it gets torn at vote, then it's on them, but at least it would mean they wouldn't try to actually buy a badge by WA campaigning for a crappy resolution and pushing it to vote via stamps.
Outer Sparta wrote:As for the quorum raiding thing, I hadn't considered that as a potential consequence to raising the threshold. I'm keen to see how the debate with quorum raiding progress and how it relates to the WA quorum as a whole (whether you raise or lower it).
RiderSyl wrote:You'd really think that defenders would communicate with each other about this. I know they're not a hivemind, but at least some level of PR skill would keep Quebecshire and Quebecshire from publically contradicting eac
wait
by Bears Armed » Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:09 am
Same here, although for my most recent few proposals I've used stamps donated to me [several years ago, now] by a 'WA Improvement' puppet that one or another of the GA regulars created.Refuge Isle wrote:I have done numerous campaigns entirely by hand.
Agreed. My manual campaigns usually started on a targeted basis too, and only became more general if just a few extra approvals were needed with the deadline approaching. In my experience the success rate for a targeted campaign was around 20-25% of the delegates approached, so at present contacting just the 300 "likeliest" delegates should usually be sufficient.As mentioned, even if the price of doing a round of campaigning were increased by five times, it's still not particularly abundant effort to draft a joke/spam proposal and spend two hours sending out batches of eight to scarcely 900 delegates. Or fewer, if you only target the delegates most likely to approve any given proposal. There simply aren't a great number of delegates in total.
by Islands Of Ventro » Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:36 am
by Morover » Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:18 am
by Bears Armed » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:27 am
I did most if not all of my manual campaigns when the quorum requirement was over 90, in at least one case when it was over 120.Morover wrote:As others have mentioned, manual and API campaigns are possible, and even feasible right now, but when the number of delegacies inevitably increases (I imagine this'll happen around the release of the autocracies/democracies feature or whatever it's called now), it becomes a lot less feasible.
by Outer Sparta » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:56 am
Islands Of Ventro wrote:One thing adding to this idea,
Its also harder to get a proposal to quarem without the use of stamps, it’s possible but you only see it every once in a while.
Now noting the fact they I don’t have any ideas on how to fix this.
Nations they don’t want to spend money on the game are deterred(I think) from making proposals due to seemingly pay to win system (as a example, you see high quality issues fail to make it to quarem without stamps and then there’s elite lemonade, who did a joke proposal with little effort but used stamps so it made it to quarem.)
This is just a part of WA thst I dislike I really don’t know if others share this opinion
by Daarwyrth » Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:49 am
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