by GuessTheAltAccount » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:42 am
Bombadil wrote:My girlfriend wanted me to treat her like a princess, so I arranged for her to be married to a stranger to strengthen our alliance with Poland.
by Punished UMN » Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:16 am
by Muzehnaya » Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:48 am
And with voters primed by religion for unreason, they won't care if his ideas don't stand up to scrutiny. Religion didn't either, and disregarding that set a precedent.
Trump will never live down getting half a million Americans killed with his coronavirus policies. But who knows how many people religion killed with its opposition to stem cell research?
By comparison, you don't need religion to defend their polar opposite in the kinds of Nordic policies Sanders-types advocate. We know this because Nordic countries are less religious than the USA.
Would that not buy religion undue goodwill, delaying the day society casts aside religion altogether, prolonging religion's toxic continued existence and allowing religion to continue to put Trump-types in office?
Ibn Taymiyyah - Majmu al-Fatawa 4/186 wrote:Insulting, slandering, and being aggressive during a discussion are tricks of those who are weak
and a commodity of those who are bankrupt (in knowledge). Verily, refutations based upon insults
and intimidation, everyone has the capability of doing that.
by GuessTheAltAccount » Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:27 am
Punished UMN wrote:You realize the idea of welfare states was basically created by conservative Christian Prussian aristocrats who were suspicious of capitalism's effects on society, right?
Muzehnaya wrote:I understand it's apparently become the popular thing to blame religion for all the problems in modern society, but this is just strange. People were not "primed by religion for unreason." This unreasonableness is caused by rabid partisanship and tribalism.
Muzehnaya wrote:This is a transition to what seems like a tangentially related issue at best. Regardless, it seems that stem cell research has been steadily progressing despite any related controversy
Muzehnaya wrote:Also, it's not as if people's objection to these things comes solely from religion, just as not every pro-life objection raised stems from religion either.
Muzehnaya wrote:Quite frankly, you didn't really need religion to defend Trump either. All you needed was the word of what Trump said, because these people who support him have a blind loyalty to him. I would go as far as to say that his supporters would still be trying to find a way to defend him had he taken a machine gun and massacred a Church congregation.
Muzehnaya wrote:It should speak for itself that much of the right wing has begun to abandon Christianity in favor of Paganism.
Bombadil wrote:My girlfriend wanted me to treat her like a princess, so I arranged for her to be married to a stranger to strengthen our alliance with Poland.
by Immortan Khan » Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:31 am
by GuessTheAltAccount » Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:41 am
Immortan Khan wrote:I'm not sure why you have this obsession with stem cell research considering most stem cell research does not involve embryonic stem cells and further with induced pluripotent stem cells there really isn't much of a need for embryonic stem cells (other than cost for the time being), which religious figures aren't opposed to. I mean research is already being done on inducing totipotency.
Bombadil wrote:My girlfriend wanted me to treat her like a princess, so I arranged for her to be married to a stranger to strengthen our alliance with Poland.
by Punished UMN » Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:45 am
GuessTheAltAccount wrote:Punished UMN wrote:You realize the idea of welfare states was basically created by conservative Christian Prussian aristocrats who were suspicious of capitalism's effects on society, right?
Doesn't mean Christianity should be given the credit. If they hadn't invented the concept, someone else would.
. . .
by Immortan Khan » Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:47 am
I mean research would have been done on it regardless because it's far easier to take someone's own cells with their own genetic code and use that for therapies.GuessTheAltAccount wrote:And they wouldn't have needed to waste time on them if the church would let them have their embryonic ones in the fist place.
I mean they are completely capable of being substitutes.Non-embryonic stem cells are a supplement for embryonic ones, not a substitute. They are each useful for different things.
I mean, life does begin at conception. That's not a debate, biologically speaking. The debate is when personhood begins (well sometimes, people in favour of abortion up to the last second can't really be said to be arguing about personhood).The fact remains that this idiotic "life begins at conception" narrative put insentient zygotes over sentient human beings, costing lives among the latter.
This is a really bad attempt to guilt trip given the support various religious scholars have given to medical research over the centuries.Homophobia could be blamed on evolutionary impulses, opposition to condom use could be blamed on envy of others' sex lives (though I'm skeptical since my own falling for fearmongering about guys "imitating" the "bad boys" who supposedly "get girls" was mistaken for that too) but cancer patients didn't catch their disease through promiscuity.
by GuessTheAltAccount » Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:49 am
Punished UMN wrote:GuessTheAltAccount wrote:Doesn't mean Christianity should be given the credit. If they hadn't invented the concept, someone else would.
. . .
What does this even mean? All it is is inconvenient for you to admit that the ideology you are railing against is also the one primarily responsible for a humanist view of the world that puts the dignity of persons ahead of other things.
Bombadil wrote:My girlfriend wanted me to treat her like a princess, so I arranged for her to be married to a stranger to strengthen our alliance with Poland.
by Punished UMN » Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:54 am
GuessTheAltAccount wrote:Punished UMN wrote:What does this even mean? All it is is inconvenient for you to admit that the ideology you are railing against is also the one primarily responsible for a humanist view of the world that puts the dignity of persons ahead of other things.
Are you implying we'd all be a bunch of cold, heartless scumbags who don't care about each other's dignity without religion? Give me a break. Scandinavia is more peaceful than the USA with less religion. Places that are in between on the former (eg. Canada, Australia, much of Europe, etc...) are in between on religion.
More likely, religion stole the credit for the idea of putting the dignity of persons ahead of other things, just like it did with everything from Yule to the virgin birth story.
by GuessTheAltAccount » Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:56 am
Immortan Khan wrote:I mean they are completely capable of being substitutes.
Immortan Khan wrote:I mean, life does begin at conception. That's not a debate, biologically speaking. The debate is when personhood begins (well sometimes, people in favour of abortion up to the last second can't really be said to be arguing about personhood).
Immortan Khan wrote:This is a really bad attempt to guilt trip given the support various religious scholars have given to medical research over the centuries.
Bombadil wrote:My girlfriend wanted me to treat her like a princess, so I arranged for her to be married to a stranger to strengthen our alliance with Poland.
by Punished UMN » Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:00 am
by GuessTheAltAccount » Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:01 am
Punished UMN wrote:Secular humanism is historically accepted to be derived almost entirely from Christian intellectual traditions.
Punished UMN wrote:Prior to Christianity, few societies valued human life in-itself
Punished UMN wrote:the reason we view it as a default today is because we live in a society influenced by over a thousand years of Christian ideological dominance which persists even after secularism.
Bombadil wrote:My girlfriend wanted me to treat her like a princess, so I arranged for her to be married to a stranger to strengthen our alliance with Poland.
by Punished UMN » Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:05 am
GuessTheAltAccount wrote:Punished UMN wrote:Secular humanism is historically accepted to be derived almost entirely from Christian intellectual traditions.
"Historically accepted" by whom?Punished UMN wrote:Prior to Christianity, few societies valued human life in-itself
As opposed to during Christianity, when religious authorities were executing people over everything under the sun?
It is the passage of time, not the role of Christianity, that deserves the credit.Punished UMN wrote:the reason we view it as a default today is because we live in a society influenced by over a thousand years of Christian ideological dominance which persists even after secularism.
How did bonobos come to value it, then?
Perspectives like yours are a hideous smear not just against atheists, but against theists as well, by taking the rightful credit for their moral goodness away from their own consciences as individuals and falsely attributing it to an ideology that has proven counterproductive to it again and again.
by GuessTheAltAccount » Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:10 am
Punished UMN wrote:GuessTheAltAccount wrote:"Historically accepted" by whom?
As opposed to during Christianity, when religious authorities were executing people over everything under the sun?
It is the passage of time, not the role of Christianity, that deserves the credit.
How did bonobos come to value it, then?
Perspectives like yours are a hideous smear not just against atheists, but against theists as well, by taking the rightful credit for their moral goodness away from their own consciences as individuals and falsely attributing it to an ideology that has proven counterproductive to it again and again.
You can look at pretty much any history of philosophy book on humanism to see that Christian theologians were immensely influential in terms of humanist thought.
Executions during the middle ages were actually much lower than under prior regimes such as pagan regimes.
Bombadil wrote:My girlfriend wanted me to treat her like a princess, so I arranged for her to be married to a stranger to strengthen our alliance with Poland.
by Nilokeras » Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:11 am
Immortan Khan wrote:>Linking to a Cracked article
Are we back in 2012?
by Immortan Khan » Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:40 am
Punished UMN wrote:GuessTheAltAccount wrote:"Historically accepted" by whom?
As opposed to during Christianity, when religious authorities were executing people over everything under the sun?
It is the passage of time, not the role of Christianity, that deserves the credit.
How did bonobos come to value it, then?
Perspectives like yours are a hideous smear not just against atheists, but against theists as well, by taking the rightful credit for their moral goodness away from their own consciences as individuals and falsely attributing it to an ideology that has proven counterproductive to it again and again.
You can look at pretty much any history of philosophy book on humanism to see that Christian theologians were immensely influential in terms of humanist thought.
Executions during the middle ages were actually much lower than under prior regimes such as pagan regimes.
Fair.Nilokeras wrote:
I mean the OP's entire worldview is that of a FreeThoughtBlogs commenter that was decanted out of a cryotube from around then so it fits
by Esternial » Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:43 am
GuessTheAltAccount wrote:Giving Christianity the credit for something it seized upon at the right moment is ridiculous. It'd be like if someone discovered evolution before Darwin did, and said "see? If it wasn't for me, evolution wouldn't have been discovered!"
by Immortan Khan » Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:51 am
Time has nothing to do with it. Crime and punishment zig zag between lax and stern over history. The American justice system was significantly more lax in the 70's for example. Murderers were being let out after five years in some cases.GuessTheAltAccount wrote:Which further drives home my point about it is the passage of time,
Are you sure about that?not the role of Christianity, that has been the positive influence.
Once again, time has nothing to do with it. There were fewer crimes punishable by death during Anglo-Saxon England and Norman England than there were during the 17th and 18th centuries.As time passes and society drifts apart from religion, society gets even better than that.
Are you sure that's a given? The concept of a round Earth had to be brought into China during the 17th century, one of the most advanced empires in the world. They thought the earth was flat until then. Concepts and invention that seem like common sense to us is only because we were born into them. The stirrup wasn't invented for thousands of years after humans had begun riding horses. Three crop rotation is something you don't see until something like 7000 years after the start of agriculture.Giving Christianity the credit for something it seized upon at the right moment is ridiculous. It'd be like if someone discovered evolution before Darwin did, and said "see? If it wasn't for me, evolution wouldn't have been discovered!" Only it's actually more like if that person said "and by the way, evolution is a package deal.
What?To accept evolution, you must also accept Trumpism, and be against stem cell research. If you say otherwise, you're with SATAN."
by Kowani » Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:51 am
by Salus Maior » Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:12 pm
by Punished UMN » Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:17 pm
GuessTheAltAccount wrote:Punished UMN wrote:You can look at pretty much any history of philosophy book on humanism to see that Christian theologians were immensely influential in terms of humanist thought.
Executions during the middle ages were actually much lower than under prior regimes such as pagan regimes.
Which further drives home my point about it is the passage of time, not the role of Christianity, that has been the positive influence. As time passes and society drifts apart from religion, society gets even better than that.
Giving Christianity the credit for something it seized upon at the right moment is ridiculous. It'd be like if someone discovered evolution before Darwin did, and said "see? If it wasn't for me, evolution wouldn't have been discovered!" Only it's actually more like if that person said "and by the way, evolution is a package deal. To accept evolution, you must also accept Trumpism, and be against stem cell research. If you say otherwise, you're with SATAN."
by Dowaesk » Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:21 pm
by Cetacea » Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:09 pm
GuessTheAltAccount wrote:When you look at the election of Donald Trump, it was a jarring contrast with prior variants of conservatism.
Conservatism used to be known for "Putin, you need to get out of Ukraine." Now it's known for "Putin, you can stay in Ukraine as long as you dig up dirt on our opponents while you're there."
Conservatism used to be known for worshipping capitalism. Now it carves out an exception for international trade.
Conservatism used to be known for fawning over the military. Now it fawns over people who call soldiers suckers and losers.
For an ideology whose supposed namesake is tradition, it sure doesn't seem to hold onto it. (Not that tradition was ever definable in the first place; what if the traditions of our medieval ancestors are at odds with our evolutionary ones?)
But if there is one thing modern conservatism has in common with old-timey conservatism, it's religion. When Trump forced those protesters out of the way, it was to make way for a photo op at a church across the street. He repeatedly invoked "God" in his speeches. People can try to No True Scotsman their way out of this all they like, but so long as the Bible contradicts itself, it leaves room for interpretation that scum like Trump can fit through. And with voters primed by religion for unreason, they won't care if his ideas don't stand up to scrutiny. Religion didn't either, and disregarding that set a precedent. Trump will never live down getting half a million Americans killed with his coronavirus policies. But who knows how many people religion killed with its opposition to stem cell research?
By comparison, you don't need religion to defend their polar opposite in the kinds of Nordic policies Sanders-types advocate. We know this because Nordic countries are less religious than the USA.
So when you hear of people trying to reconcile said Nordic policies with religion, emotionally I can't help but find it endearing, but intellectually I wonder if that may be doing progressive causes more harm than good. Would that not buy religion undue goodwill, delaying the day society casts aside religion altogether, prolonging religion's toxic continued existence and allowing religion to continue to put Trump-types in office?
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