NATION

PASSWORD

"Law is Not Morality"

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

You are Breaking the Law...

because you're rational and risk < reward
7
18%
because the law is wrong
23
58%
because you rolled a six and today you're chaotic evil
3
8%
because you're irrational and risk > reward
5
13%
because it's legal here (but not where you come from)
2
5%
 
Total votes : 40

User avatar
Ayytaly
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1514
Founded: Feb 08, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ayytaly » Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:44 pm

Morality is not absolute, and the law is subjective.
Signatures are the obnoxious car bumper stickers of the internet. Also, Rojava did nothing right.

User avatar
Jebslund
Minister
 
Posts: 3023
Founded: Sep 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Jebslund » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:09 pm

Alcala-Cordel wrote:In my opinion it is somewhat shallow to have no sense of morality without some higher code. Shouldn't we all have an inner idea of what's right and what's wrong?

We very much do, with few exceptions. The problem is, that idea differs between cultures and even individuals. That's where having a higher moral code is useful. The law, however, should not be used for that purpose. That is the place of less formal guidelines, such as community rules and religion.
Last edited by Jebslund on Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jebslund is a nation of kerbals ruled by Emperor Jebediah Kerman. We reject tyranny, believing that rights should be protected, though we also believe said rights end where the rights of others begin.
Shockingly, we *do* use NS stats, with the exception of lifespan.
Singular sapient: Jebslunder
Plural Sapient: Jebslunden
Singular/Plural nonsapient: Kermanic
Note: When a verb can logically only be done by the sapient using/piloting/holding the object in question, then the appropriate demonym for the number of sapients is used.

Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism are ECONOMIC SYSTEMS. Stop conflating them with political systems.

User avatar
Atheris
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6412
Founded: Oct 05, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Atheris » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:12 pm

I break copyright laws because copyright is bullshit and should be abolished.
#FreeNSGRojava
Don't talk to Moderators. Don't associate with Moderators. Don't trust moderators. Moderators lie.
NEW VISAYAN ISLANDS SHOULD RESIGN! HOLD JANNIES ACCOUNTABLE!

User avatar
Ayytaly
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1514
Founded: Feb 08, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ayytaly » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:16 pm

Atheris wrote:I break copyright laws because copyright is bullshit and should be abolished.


Ah, then you have no problem leeching from innovators.
Signatures are the obnoxious car bumper stickers of the internet. Also, Rojava did nothing right.

User avatar
Atheris
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6412
Founded: Oct 05, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Atheris » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:16 pm

Ayytaly wrote:
Atheris wrote:I break copyright laws because copyright is bullshit and should be abolished.


Ah, then you have no problem leeching from innovators.

Nope.
#FreeNSGRojava
Don't talk to Moderators. Don't associate with Moderators. Don't trust moderators. Moderators lie.
NEW VISAYAN ISLANDS SHOULD RESIGN! HOLD JANNIES ACCOUNTABLE!

User avatar
Ayytaly
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1514
Founded: Feb 08, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ayytaly » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:31 pm

Atheris wrote:
Ayytaly wrote:
Ah, then you have no problem leeching from innovators.

Nope.


Broken windows, buddy.
Signatures are the obnoxious car bumper stickers of the internet. Also, Rojava did nothing right.

User avatar
Forsher
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18487
Founded: Jan 30, 2012
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Forsher » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:05 pm

Atheris wrote:I break copyright laws because copyright is bullshit and should be abolished.


If, for example, I wrote a book, I should be able to profit off that labour. And if I choose, in this fantasy world where I wrote a book, to release the book online free of charge, I should be able to stop other people from profiting from my labour, if I so choose.

Copyright isn't bullshit and it certainly shouldn't be abolished. People destroying the artistic integrity of other peoples' work, people profiting off other peoples' ideas without permission? They're bullshit.

Extortionate pricing and delivery models? They're bullshit.
That it Could be What it Is, Is What it Is

Stop making shit up, though. Links, or it's a God-damn lie and you know it.

The normie life is heteronormie

We won't know until 2053 when it'll be really obvious what he should've done. [...] We have no option but to guess.

User avatar
Jebslund
Minister
 
Posts: 3023
Founded: Sep 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Jebslund » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:53 pm

Forsher wrote:
Atheris wrote:I break copyright laws because copyright is bullshit and should be abolished.


If, for example, I wrote a book, I should be able to profit off that labour. And if I choose, in this fantasy world where I wrote a book, to release the book online free of charge, I should be able to stop other people from profiting from my labour, if I so choose.

Copyright isn't bullshit and it certainly shouldn't be abolished. People destroying the artistic integrity of other peoples' work, people profiting off other peoples' ideas without permission? They're bullshit.

Extortionate pricing and delivery models? They're bullshit.

Counterpoint: people should also be free to make their own material based off your book should it spark their creativity. Not necessarily to profit off it (at least, not without giving you your due), but a free fangame, for instance, that represents itself as a fanwork and not as your work, should be able to be freely made without said fan(s) having to worry about being sued.
Jebslund is a nation of kerbals ruled by Emperor Jebediah Kerman. We reject tyranny, believing that rights should be protected, though we also believe said rights end where the rights of others begin.
Shockingly, we *do* use NS stats, with the exception of lifespan.
Singular sapient: Jebslunder
Plural Sapient: Jebslunden
Singular/Plural nonsapient: Kermanic
Note: When a verb can logically only be done by the sapient using/piloting/holding the object in question, then the appropriate demonym for the number of sapients is used.

Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism are ECONOMIC SYSTEMS. Stop conflating them with political systems.

User avatar
Forsher
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18487
Founded: Jan 30, 2012
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Forsher » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:13 pm

Jebslund wrote:
Forsher wrote:
If, for example, I wrote a book, I should be able to profit off that labour. And if I choose, in this fantasy world where I wrote a book, to release the book online free of charge, I should be able to stop other people from profiting from my labour, if I so choose.

Copyright isn't bullshit and it certainly shouldn't be abolished. People destroying the artistic integrity of other peoples' work, people profiting off other peoples' ideas without permission? They're bullshit.

Extortionate pricing and delivery models? They're bullshit.

Counterpoint: people should also be free to make their own material based off your book should it spark their creativity. Not necessarily to profit off it (at least, not without giving you your due), but a free fangame, for instance, that represents itself as a fanwork and not as your work, should be able to be freely made without said fan(s) having to worry about being sued.


I don't think that's a counterpoint.

Let's suppose that I am legally empowered to prevent their profiting from my labour but I can't act to stop their not profiting. That's still a copyright regime. It's not as expansive as what we have now, but it is a copyright regime.

Of course, I would argue that I was also saying copyright should be available to punish bad actors trying to destroy the artistic integrity of my work even if they weren't profiting off it. The classic example of this is bands copyright trolling politicians they disagree with when said politicians co-opt their music. And if you want to, say, dispute the entire messaging of my universe, you shouldn't be able to use my characters and/or worldbuilding to do it... contrast Harry Potter versus Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality (er, spoilers) with The Coral Island vs Lord of the Flies... even if you otherwise would (since you're not profiting) be.

I guess if you were just responding to that sub-point, then it is a counterpoint. Though, I admit, I am willing to entertain the notion that reproduction and/or incorporation of the work itself would be necessary here (whatever other faults it possesses HPMOR doesn't lift text from the books).
Last edited by Forsher on Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That it Could be What it Is, Is What it Is

Stop making shit up, though. Links, or it's a God-damn lie and you know it.

The normie life is heteronormie

We won't know until 2053 when it'll be really obvious what he should've done. [...] We have no option but to guess.

User avatar
Page
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14581
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Page » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:55 pm

Forsher wrote:
Copyright isn't bullshit and it certainly shouldn't be abolished. People destroying the artistic integrity of other peoples' work, people profiting off other peoples' ideas without permission? They're bullshit.


Capitalism is bullshit and copyright need not exist without it. Creators are entitled to credit but in a mutual aid society, profit would not be an issue.
I don't believe in kink-shaming unless your kink is submitting to the state.

"If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged." - Noam Chomsky

FREE BORDERLANDS OF ROJAVA (also still haven't forgiven Liriena being DEATed, stop DEATing cool people)

Protect yourself from Covid-19: Stop licking boots.

User avatar
Jebslund
Minister
 
Posts: 3023
Founded: Sep 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Jebslund » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:14 am

Forsher wrote:
Jebslund wrote:Counterpoint: people should also be free to make their own material based off your book should it spark their creativity. Not necessarily to profit off it (at least, not without giving you your due), but a free fangame, for instance, that represents itself as a fanwork and not as your work, should be able to be freely made without said fan(s) having to worry about being sued.


I don't think that's a counterpoint.

Let's suppose that I am legally empowered to prevent their profiting from my labour but I can't act to stop their not profiting. That's still a copyright regime. It's not as expansive as what we have now, but it is a copyright regime.

True, but you touch on my response to this later.

Forsher wrote:Of course, I would argue that I was also saying copyright should be available to punish bad actors trying to destroy the artistic integrity of my work even if they weren't profiting off it. The classic example of this is bands copyright trolling politicians they disagree with when said politicians co-opt their music. And if you want to, say, dispute the entire messaging of my universe, you shouldn't be able to use my characters and/or worldbuilding to do it... contrast Harry Potter versus Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality (er, spoilers) with The Coral Island vs Lord of the Flies... even if you otherwise would (since you're not profiting) be.

Not having read HPMoR, I can't comment on that particular example, but I disagree with your general sentiment that you should be able to stop people from using parody to criticise your work. Two major types of parodies are parodies, using the characters and worldbuilding, criticising the author's message, and parodies, using the same, criticising how the author chose to convey it. It's the same, from my point of view, as me using a metaphor to make a point and you refuting said point by using my metaphor to illustrate the flaws in my point, or by using a logical extreme of my metaphor to criticise my use of that metaphor to make that point (or, indeed, as a way of pointing out a flaw in my point by taking said point to its logical extreme using the logical extreme of the metaphor). Dragon Ball Z Abridged (DBZA) is one example of a parody using worldbuilding and characters from another person's work to criticise said work.

Forsher wrote:I guess if you were just responding to that sub-point, then it is a counterpoint. Though, I admit, I am willing to entertain the notion that reproduction and/or incorporation of the work itself would be necessary here (whatever other faults it possesses HPMOR doesn't lift text from the books).

This. I was countering that sub-point, not your stance on copyright as a whole. And I agree so far as reproducing the work itself or incorporating the work itself, rather than the worldbuilding/characters, without any valid transformation of said work, should be forbidden by copyright.
Last edited by Jebslund on Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jebslund is a nation of kerbals ruled by Emperor Jebediah Kerman. We reject tyranny, believing that rights should be protected, though we also believe said rights end where the rights of others begin.
Shockingly, we *do* use NS stats, with the exception of lifespan.
Singular sapient: Jebslunder
Plural Sapient: Jebslunden
Singular/Plural nonsapient: Kermanic
Note: When a verb can logically only be done by the sapient using/piloting/holding the object in question, then the appropriate demonym for the number of sapients is used.

Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism are ECONOMIC SYSTEMS. Stop conflating them with political systems.

User avatar
Ibadat Jamaeia
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Jun 12, 2021
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ibadat Jamaeia » Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:26 pm

Law is not morality, but I believe that it is best if morality and ethics inform law. Nothing too strict or dogmatic, however, something suited to how people can best govern themselves and determine their own destinies, as much as they can. Just my 2 cents, pbuh you all, mashallah.
Last edited by Ibadat Jamaeia on Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Previous

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Conservative Republic Of Huang, Infected Mushroom, Kotok, Neanderthaland, Resilient Acceleration, Shazbotdom, The Temple of the Computer, Washington Resistance Army

Advertisement

Remove ads