[DEFEATED] Fairness in Elections

[Wallenburg]

Forgive me for my lack of surface understanding of the proposition, but would this mandate all WA member-states to allow their criminals to vote? The Pan-Asiatic States believes that a criminal record inhibits the capability of a criminal to vote wisely, and thus, deprives them of that privelege. We do not wish to be pressured by the international community to reverse this.

How does having a criminal record inhibit the mental processes of an ex-con?

[Pan-Asiatic States]

Forgive me for my lack of surface understanding of the proposition, but would this mandate all WA member-states to allow their criminals to vote? The Pan-Asiatic States believes that a criminal record inhibits the capability of a criminal to vote wisely, and thus, deprives them of that privelege. We do not wish to be pressured by the international community to reverse this.

How does having a criminal record inhibit the mental processes of an ex-con?

Well, if you've murdered someone that doesn't exactly make you the most rational person to decide who should lead the country, yes?

[Wallenburg]

How does having a criminal record inhibit the mental processes of an ex-con?

Well, if you've murdered someone that doesn't exactly make you the most rational person to decide who should lead the country, yes?

Whether or not you commit violent crime has no correlation to rationality or mental ability. Crime occurs, by and large, as a result of the opportunity to commit crime or circumstances which make crime the easiest way to satisfy material needs.

[Pan-Asiatic States]

Well, if you've murdered someone that doesn't exactly make you the most rational person to decide who should lead the country, yes?

Whether or not you commit violent crime has no correlation to rationality or mental ability. Crime occurs, by and large, as a result of the opportunity to commit crime or circumstances which make crime the easiest way to satisfy material needs.

I respectfully disagree. Only evil people commit crimes: psychopaths, sycophants, mentally-deranged people, and the like. Criminals are bound to be brought to justice, and part of that penance is to be deprived of one's privelege to vote. Murderers, sexual exploiters, thieves, and other such degenerates of society do not at all deserve to have a say in the destiny of law-abiding citizens.

[Ardiveds]

I respectfully disagree. Only evil people commit crimes: psychopaths, sycophants, mentally-deranged people, and the like.

"We think this should make the maturity and moral credibility of the Pan-asiatic delegation crystal clear to all."

[Pan-Asiatic States]

I respectfully disagree. Only evil people commit crimes: psychopaths, sycophants, mentally-deranged people, and the like.

"We think this should make the maturity and moral credibility of the Pan-asiatic delegation crystal clear to all."

If the pursuit of justice is a sign of moral fallacy according to Your Excellency, then perhaps we should not be surprised if Ardiveds' next ambassador or Premier will be a common hoodlum or petty criminal since they are so adamant to promote the political representation of murderers, thieves, and other drains on society.

[Ardiveds]

"We think this should make the maturity and moral credibility of the Pan-asiatic delegation crystal clear to all."

If the pursuit of justice is a sign of moral fallacy according to Your Excellency, then perhaps we should not be surprised if Ardiveds' next ambassador or Premier will be a common hoodlum or petty criminal since they are so adamant to promote the political representation of murderers, thieves, and other drains on society.

"Our comments were not in reference to this proposal really but your delusional claims. Whether criminal should be given the right to vote is a matter of political opinion but your childish claims about all criminals being evil psychopaths is both laughable and pitiable, your understanding of 'justice' is about as developed as that of a twelve year old's."

[Pan-Asiatic States]

If the pursuit of justice is a sign of moral fallacy according to Your Excellency, then perhaps we should not be surprised if Ardiveds' next ambassador or Premier will be a common hoodlum or petty criminal since they are so adamant to promote the political representation of murderers, thieves, and other drains on society.

"Our comments were not in reference to this proposal really but your delusional claims. Whether criminal should be given the right to vote is a matter of political opinion but your childish claims about all criminals being evil psychopaths is both laughable and pitiable, your understanding of 'justice' is about as developed as that of a twelve year old's."

The only people who are delusional are the criminals themselves; the very criminals that some claim should be allowed to vote.

[Wallenburg]

Whether or not you commit violent crime has no correlation to rationality or mental ability. Crime occurs, by and large, as a result of the opportunity to commit crime or circumstances which make crime the easiest way to satisfy material needs.

I respectfully disagree. Only evil people commit crimes: psychopaths, sycophants, mentally-deranged people, and the like.

That you rope in having a mental illness with being "evil" and committing crimes tells me all I need to know about your understanding of what causes crime and how justice should operate.

Criminals are bound to be brought to justice, and part of that penance is to be deprived of one's privelege to vote. Murderers, sexual exploiters, thieves, and other such degenerates of society do not at all deserve to have a say in the destiny of law-abiding citizens.

Oooh, "degenerates", going two for two!

[Tinhampton]

Article e amended, hopefully to BC/Hulldom's satisfaction. Article c also amended because I had a closer read-thru of GA#455. I will likely submit this at 5pm BST on Saturday.

[Tinhampton]

And of course we're Proposal-A-Go-Go

[Tinhampton]

This proposal is quorate and (assuming that all queued proposals are legal) will be voted on between the major updates of Wednesday 9th June and Sunday 13th June.

AS OF 1425 BST ON SUNDAY: Approvals: 68 out of 61 needed (Tinhampton, The Flyin, Molopovia, So Pep, You Should See Me in a Crown, TESDAI, Beepee, Calamari Lands, Agalaesia, Brototh, Zukchiva, Greater Cesnica, Noble Titans, J-O-E, Mikeswill, New Majoria, Floyssauu, Spectral Empire, Hamgria, Duby, Krezenel, Vedhase, Baloo Kingdom, Pastries, Barkania, Red Green and Black, Readlng, New Bismuthium, Baden-Wurttemburg, Zarnath 2, Fritzentein, Enlais, LollerLand, Paleocacher, Momma Ayu, Nerdesia, Castle Federation, Lesser Velutaria, Republic of Blank, OF Courscant, Zombiedolphins, Rhode 1sland, Novus Greater Britannia, Yaroi, Krovnik, Great Ronopolis, N E A C, Reevenstein, Suvmia, Omniabstracta, Il Osoris, Rose Moon, Stedinia, Libonesia, Narvatus, Reultan, Particle, Miyasaka, Socruell, People of Phoenix, Yugandastan, Indusse, FNU, Greater Cadia, Nghymru, Bearded Dragones, Combokata, New Wolvers)

---

I sent the following campaign telegram to about 98% of delegates - excluding Dilber, ShrewLlamaLand, Harkagrad (all of whom only support repeals), and the thirteen delegates that had already approved - at 18:07:55 BST on Saturday:

Greetings, Delegate. I ask that you approve my proposal to guarantee Fairness in Elections. I have co-authored this proposal with CoraSpia, who is a well-known debater on the General forum.

My proposal will require democratic nations not to discriminate based on race, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, or religion when deciding who can vote at elections. It will also require your nation to permit almost all speech that expresses opposition towards your government, whether or not it is democratic.

It will require democratic nations to allow most people who have committed a crime to vote at elections. However, your nation can still prevent those who have committed election fraud or the most serious violent crimes from voting under my proposal.

I hope that you have found this telegram to be a good summary of my proposal to ensure Fairness in Elections and further hope that you will approve it.

Thank you,
The Self-Administrative City of Tinhampton

[Bananaistan]

"Unsurprisingly, the People's Republic of Bananaistan has voted against this votes for murderers, rapists and paedophiles charter.

"In addition to our long standing opposition to all electoral law proposals, there are parts of this that are outright bad policy. I'm sure there are many member nations that, like Bananaistan, have by now effectively abolished prison as a punishment for all but the most serious crimes and to hold only those who are a danger to others. Why we should go out of our way to facilitate these people is beyond me, as is the general idea that these people should have any more rights beyond food, water, shelter and safety from each other.

"Section e is problematic too and requires prison authorities to monitor and control political discussion in prisons to ensure that none of these poor murderers, rapists and kiddy fiddlers are unduly "pressuring" each other.

"Section h either does nothing or is a huge imposition on private organisations. The example given of a one-party state suggests that it applies to private organisations. Requiring, say, a sports club to rock up to the prison to ensure that a member who's in jail has a vote in that year's AGM is insane."

[Terra Nostrum Libertatum]

Whether or not you commit violent crime has no correlation to rationality or mental ability. Crime occurs, by and large, as a result of the opportunity to commit crime or circumstances which make crime the easiest way to satisfy material needs.

I respectfully disagree. Only evil people commit crimes: psychopaths, sycophants, mentally-deranged people, and the like. Criminals are bound to be brought to justice, and part of that penance is to be deprived of one's privelege to vote. Murderers, sexual exploiters, thieves, and other such degenerates of society do not at all deserve to have a say in the destiny of law-abiding citizens.

Such an infantile way to look at legality and morality. Terms such as "evil" have no place in legal debates. The first and foremost factor which generates crime is precarious socio-economic conditions. You also seem not to understand or care about the key fact that laws are not delivered by divinity, but are drafted by human beings, human beings with biases and subjective views. Who's to say that a law doesn't generate unjustified social and economic inequalities, and thus increases criminality rates amongst several communities, a highly relevant example being the laws passed as part of the United States' war on drugs. Your comment should disqualify you from this debate.

[CoraSpia]

"Unsurprisingly, the People's Republic of Bananaistan has voted against this votes for murderers, rapists and paedophiles charter.

"In addition to our long standing opposition to all electoral law proposals, there are parts of this that are outright bad policy. I'm sure there are many member nations that, like Bananaistan, have by now effectively abolished prison as a punishment for all but the most serious crimes and to hold only those who are a danger to others. Why we should go out of our way to facilitate these people is beyond me, as is the general idea that these people should have any more rights beyond food, water, shelter and safety from each other.

"Section e is problematic too and requires prison authorities to monitor and control political discussion in prisons to ensure that none of these poor murderers, rapists and kiddy fiddlers are unduly "pressuring" each other.

"Section h either does nothing or is a huge imposition on private organisations. The example given of a one-party state suggests that it applies to private organisations. Requiring, say, a sports club to rock up to the prison to ensure that a member who's in jail has a vote in that year's AGM is insane."

"The Havenic government rejects this line of argumentation. It is not acceptable to deny human rights to any group simply on account of them being a small group without popular support. This is the logic that has been used to support discrimination throughout history, and unfortunately it rather falls flat.
As for the second and third points raised, our answer is this. Exactly. Keeping people confined against their will should not be easy, nor should it be supported by the world assembly. If it is too much of an imposition on your government to imprison people humanely, I would advise them to send these people to contact the haven regarding our criminal resettlement scheme."

[Kenmoria]

“Clause e is very much problematic, as the Bananamen outlined in their recent speech, available by transcript. The Kenmoria WA Mission does not share their concerns with regards to the overall content, not with section h, as it is my opinion that the example given shows that only governmentally-affiliated elections fall under this clause. However, the fact remains that preventing inmates from influencing each other is simply an impossible task.”

“Therefore, I shall withhold any vote until hearing more arguments. What would have been an enthusiastic vote in favour has, due to the words ‘or currently held at’ in clause e, been reduced to an abstention.”

[CoraSpia]

“Clause e is very much problematic, as the Bananamen outlined in their recent speech, available by transcript. The Kenmoria WA Mission does not share their concerns with regards to the overall content, not with section h, as it is my opinion that the example given shows that only governmentally-affiliated elections fall under this clause. However, the fact remains that preventing inmates from influencing each other is simply an impossible task.”

“Therefore, I shall withhold any vote until hearing more arguments. What would have been an enthusiastic vote in favour has, due to the words ‘or currently held at’ in clause e, been reduced to an abstention.”

"I fear that this clause has been misunderstood, and you are not the first to do so. The phrase 'seriously impacts their judgement,' affixed to the end of that clause, makes it clear that it is referring to attempts by elements within the prison population to intimidate inmates into voting for a particular candidate or to refrain from voting. It does not place an obligation on members to prevent inmates from attempting to convince one another to vote for a certain candidate, as their judgement is still their own."

[Marxist Germany]

"Criminals have failed to abide by society's rules of conduct, and have thenceforth forfeited the right to determine the aforementioned rule of conduct. Germany will be voting against any iteration of this proposal that seeks to expand the franchise to those who have been convicted of a crime."

[Kenmoria]

“Clause e is very much problematic, as the Bananamen outlined in their recent speech, available by transcript. The Kenmoria WA Mission does not share their concerns with regards to the overall content, not with section h, as it is my opinion that the example given shows that only governmentally-affiliated elections fall under this clause. However, the fact remains that preventing inmates from influencing each other is simply an impossible task.”

“Therefore, I shall withhold any vote until hearing more arguments. What would have been an enthusiastic vote in favour has, due to the words ‘or currently held at’ in clause e, been reduced to an abstention.”

"I fear that this clause has been misunderstood, and you are not the first to do so. The phrase 'seriously impacts their judgement,' affixed to the end of that clause, makes it clear that it is referring to attempts by elements within the prison population to intimidate inmates into voting for a particular candidate or to refrain from voting. It does not place an obligation on members to prevent inmates from attempting to convince one another to vote for a certain candidate, as their judgement is still their own."

“I understood that, ambassador. Certainly, if the clause banned member states allowing inmates to sway each other’s votes, then I would be firmly voting against the proposal. However, even preventing the more severe voter intimidation in such environments as prisons is, though an admirable goal, entirely infeasible in practice.”

[CoraSpia]

"I fear that this clause has been misunderstood, and you are not the first to do so. The phrase 'seriously impacts their judgement,' affixed to the end of that clause, makes it clear that it is referring to attempts by elements within the prison population to intimidate inmates into voting for a particular candidate or to refrain from voting. It does not place an obligation on members to prevent inmates from attempting to convince one another to vote for a certain candidate, as their judgement is still their own."

“I understood that, ambassador. Certainly, if the clause banned member states allowing inmates to sway each other’s votes, then I would be firmly voting against the proposal. However, even preventing the more severe voter intimidation in such environments as prisons is, though an admirable goal, entirely infeasible in practice.”

"Ambassador, if your state would find the task of keeping people it confines against their will safe then I would strongly suggest that it stop the practice altogether. Your government has a duty of care towards these individuals, and if political intimidation is such a big issue within your prison system then it either needs to be addressed internally or I would suggest taking a look at the fine work done on a regular basis by the Havenic criminal resettlement program."

[Ardiveds]

"Ambassador, we have no moral concerns about this but arranging elections for criminals is a pretty tedious and tiresome endeavor and we'd rather let them just complete their sentences before letting then vote. Apart from that, there's clause e which is just an absurd expectation and impossible to enforce short of keeping each prisoner separated from everybody else all the time. So we'll be voting against."

[Kenmoria]

“I understood that, ambassador. Certainly, if the clause banned member states allowing inmates to sway each other’s votes, then I would be firmly voting against the proposal. However, even preventing the more severe voter intimidation in such environments as prisons is, though an admirable goal, entirely infeasible in practice.”

"Ambassador, if your state would find the task of keeping people it confines against their will safe then I would strongly suggest that it stop the practice altogether. Your government has a duty of care towards these individuals, and if political intimidation is such a big issue within your prison system then it either needs to be addressed internally or I would suggest taking a look at the fine work done on a regular basis by the Havenic criminal resettlement program."

“When the Parliament of Kenmoria has a particularly-long advertisement break and decides to go and consult me, I will inform them of your opinions towards the nation’s penal system. Perhaps they might change the entire system. However, I can only base my judgements off what is currently the case, not what could be. As it stands, it is impossible to guarantee that voter intimidation does not occur. Altering the entire system to change this is utterly impractical, not to mention hugely expensive.”

[South Imarsdus Ourgar]

Imagine thinking I'd let anyone vote

[Otaku Stratus]

Reminder that there's only one motivation for letting criminals vote.

[Pharexia]

The Nation of Pharexia, while generally supportive of efforts aimed at increasing the number of people able to participate in the democratic process, will be voting AGAINST the proposal as it stands. Violent criminals have abdicated their right to vote while they are incarcerated, and we oppose any change in this policy.